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[SilverArrow20XX]

Read what you wrote, you're saying that having darker skin ("roughness") is unbecoming of a princess. That is exactly the problem and I doubt you actually believe this.

I'm saying having a worker's tan is typically considered unbecoming of a princess. As is having calluses, split ends, unmanicured nails etc. They're also expected to behave in a dainty manner. Gentle body language and speech patterns. Tetra also does this after transforming.

That is a different thing than having naturally dark skin. A princess with naturally dark skin, is still typically expected to have immaculately cared for skin, devoid of signs of manual labor, and still behaves in a dainty manner. The only difference is that sun tans are much less apparent on naturally dark skinned people.

This is the princess stereotype the game uses, and is also the basis for the stereotypical feminine standard of beauty. This is its own problem, and I don't agree with it. It's different than "dark skin = bad" though. It's more "feminine = delicate".

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Yeah, it's clear that the King and Tetra have a similar skin tone, so it's odd to think it might be a tan.

Unless people want to say the King's ghost got a tan.

It's just really dumb. They didn't need to make her white when she became Zelda. It's just on some "reasons" bullshit.

 

[CryptiK]

Christ

Im sorry do you have an issue? Do you understand how tans work? Or are you just here to highhorse shitpost?

 

[Ranger X]

Light and dark in terms of clothing, sure. How about literal light versus absence of light. But changing skin tone to reflect that is lazy and it is NOT an inherent view outside of people who were actually racist and/or bigoted against class.

Tks for your answer (actual intelligent answer!).
If a character suddendly becomes "evil" and you want to portray it visually, it can become darker in look (skin included). Those are characters, not real persons afterall. I think we would have a point with this thread if most evil characters really were "black". Not stupid stuff with no meaning like Scar in The Lion King but evil character that would share physical traits (more than just skin) and evident cultural aspects making them africans, afro-americans, etc. The problem with this thread is that those characters ARE rare. Thinking about it, I would even wonder where are "black" evil characters? Can we also be protrayed as some ultimate bad guys or the ultimate bad guys always have to be white? Seriously its the same ratio there than with leading black hero characters.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Im sorry do you have an issue? Do you understand how tans work? Or are you just here to highhorse shitpost?

Yes, apparently I'm on a high horse because I can see the obvious stupidity in trying to use historical classism to justify visuals in a fantasy setting

 

[LordKasual]

It's not an example of a villian, but Tetra's transformation into Zelda is another example of skin color having an ingrained association of social class.

This is almost certainly a case of Nintendo absolutely refusing to change the look of its sacred Zelda characters

Makes it no less stupid....but just remember this is Nintendo we're dealing with. It makes the case a bit different

 

[Shaanyboi]

This is almost certainly a case of Nintendo absolutely refusing to change the look of its sacred Zelda characters

Makes it no less stupid....but just remember this is Nintendo we're dealing with. It makes the case a bit different

...this is Wind Waker we're talking about. A slightly browner shade wouldn't have changed much in comparison

 

[wandering]

It's kind of astounding how much the defense of the practice seems to rely on literally "but that's the way it's always been done."

 

[SomTervo]

Phew, the stuff I'm working on has none of that. Thank god. Sometimes these things slip past, even subliminally. It's great to think about it and be aware of it.

I'm saying having a worker's tan is typically considered unbecoming of a princess. As is having calluses, split ends, unmanicured nails etc. They're also expected to behave in a dainty manner. Gentle body language and speech patterns. Tetra also does this after transforming.

That is a different thing than having naturally dark skin. A princess with naturally dark skin, is still typically expected to have immaculately cared for skin, devoid of signs of manual labor, and still behaves in a dainty manner. The only difference is that sun tans are much less apparent on naturally dark skinned people.

This is the princess stereotype the game uses, and is also the basis for the stereotypical feminine standard of beauty. This is its own problem, and I don't agree with it. It's different than "dark skin = bad" though. It's more "feminine = delicate".

"dark skin" = "worker's tan"

????

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Depends on the context. Not everything is racially motivated, intended or otherwise. Shadows and darkness are prevent fears that predate the fear of the other, and some characters mentioned in this thread are based on that.

Location with dominant demographics should also be considered, but in those cases it's important for the developers to handle such situations with care and respect. Resident Evil 5 is one that demonstrates a failure to do so.

Things like the Tetra to Zelda transformation are also bad form, even if it wasn't intended to be a statement of class (which it probably was given the context).

 

[KKRT00]

Have you ever considered why white/light has long been symbolic of goodness and black/dark has been symbolic of evil?

Walk into completely dark basement and then to completely lit one.
Which one makes you anxious? Which is more scary?

Its basic human (and most animal) psychology that in light/daylight you feel safe and in dark/night you feel unsafe.
Light and Darkness being on opposite spectrum of good/evil is and never was related to skin tone, its related to lighting and human fear of darkness, and this is universal for every culture on Earth.

Same goes for some previous examples with red being evil/satan. I mean this is direct relation to color of fire and how hell is portrait in art and history, as place covered in flame, lava etc.
Red is also color of anger or danger, and its used by nature in that sense, due to its high bright contrast with everything else.


Regarding to some games and how they create characters or transform existing ones, i'm pretty sure it just coincidence in 99% of cases, mostly due to artist having shitty vision how to make character corrupted by darkness/evil.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Walk into completely dark basement and then to completely lit one.
Which one makes you anxious? Which is more scary?

Its basic human (and most animal) psychology that in light/daylight you feel safe and in dark/night you feel unsafe.
Light and Darkness being on opposite spectrum of good/evil is and never was related to skin tone, its related to lighting and human fear of darkness, and this is universal for every culture on Earth.

Same goes for some previous examples with red being evil/satan. I mean this is direct relation to color of fire and how hell is portrait in art and history, as place covered in flame, lava etc.
Red is also color of anger or danger, and its used by nature in that sense, due to its high bright contrast with everything else.


Regarding to some games and how they create characters or transform existing ones, i'm pretty sure it just coincidence in 99% of cases, mostly due to artist having shitty vision how to make character corrupted by darkness/evil.

Why the fuck do people keep bringing up illumination in an argument about skin color?

 

[Wink]

Are you aware that the white powder stuff japanese nobles put on their faces was supposed to differentiate them from the plebes who worked the field all day and thus had a much more tanned skin tone? In that case it was absolutely a showing of class difference.

Is it a little ridiculous to nowadays interpret sinister intentions into every dark skinned villain figures in pop culture? Absolutely.
If I think of typical villain the first image that comes to mind is white sleazy business person. I think popculture does quite good job diversifying its heroes and villains.
Approached with an agenda everything you want to present can be presented by examples, doesn't mean it's the prevailing thing or that anyone has any right to demand it to stop.

 

[KKRT00]

Why the fuck do people keep bringing up illumination in an argument about skin color?

Have you read posts i'm answering to?

Regardless, a lot of examples in this thread was not about skin color on character, but badly designed characters that are corrupted by evil forces, which makes 'illumination' and genesis of light/darkness portrait discussion relevant.

 

[wandering]

Walk into completely dark basement and then to completely lit one.
Which one makes you anxious? Which is more scary?

Its basic human (and most animal) psychology that in light/daylight you feel safe and in dark/night you feel unsafe.
Light and Darkness being on opposite spectrum of good/evil is and never was related to skin tone, its related to lighting and human fear of darkness, and this is universal for every culture on Earth.

Same goes for some previous examples with red being evil/satan. I mean this is direct relation to color of fire and how hell is portrait in art and history, as place covered in flame, lava etc.
Red is also color of anger or danger, and its used by nature in that sense, due to its high bright contrast with everything else.


Regarding to some games and how they create characters or transform existing ones, i'm pretty sure it just coincidence in 99% of cases, mostly due to artist having shitty vision how to make character corrupted by darkness/evil.

Those color associations aren't universal, though. In China red is an auspicious color, and white is the color of death and mourning. In Daoism black is considered the color of heaven. Using "human nature" as an explanation is a cop out.

 

[Two Words]

Walk into completely dark basement and then to completely lit one.
Which one makes you anxious? Which is more scary?

Its basic human (and most animal) psychology that in light/daylight you feel safe and in dark/night you feel unsafe.
Light and Darkness being on opposite spectrum of good/evil is and never was related to skin tone, its related to lighting and human fear of darkness, and this is universal for every culture on Earth.

Same goes for some previous examples with red being evil/satan. I mean this is direct relation to color of fire and how hell is portrait in art and history, as place covered in flame, lava etc.
Red is also color of anger or danger, and its used by nature in that sense, due to its high bright contrast with everything else.


Regarding to some games and how they create characters or transform existing ones, i'm pretty sure it just coincidence in 99% of cases, mostly due to artist having shitty vision how to make character corrupted by darkness/evil.

How does Tetra's character fit any of that?

 

[WarpathDC]

Darkness is often equated with evil and movies amd games depict that darkness in themes. Most villains I know are white and have some dark color associated with it. I see this more as race angle of the association of darkness and skin color vs darkness/evil and dark colors. Think gandolf the white, Vader and papaltine in black. Samuel L Jackson in purple and black as a super villian with a comic book nod in unbreakable Japanese use this a lot race/ethnicity to depict it vs the clothing but I don't see it rise to the level of intentional or proposed racism. At least outside of Japan (staring rn at evil Ryu on my switch). Is it intentional racism in Japanese games? I don't know but I don't think so. Is it offensive? Clearly to some. I think it's more playing to the overall psychology of dark vs light and good vs evil.

I don't profess to be a PhD in the subject but clearly since the beginning of visual media and in books before that this has existed. Even biblically these are basic themes of good vs evil. Light vs dark.

 

[WarpathDC]

Using Scar from the Lion King as one of the examples made me have to check I wasn't on The Onion.

Lmao. Racist bastards!

 

[Shaanyboi]

Lmao. Racist bastards!

Because we all know Disney would never make something racially insensitive, right?

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

Phew, the stuff I'm working on has none of that. Thank god. Sometimes these things slip past, even subliminally. It's great to think about it and be aware of it.



"dark skin" = "worker's tan"

????

?
Worker's tan = worker's tan.
I thought my post was very clear. What are you having trouble with?
Tetra's natural skin color is pale. Just like her grand daughter's in Spirit Tracks.

 

[Shaanyboi]

?
Worker's tan = worker's tan.
I thought my post was very clear. What are you having trouble with?
Tetra's natural skin color is pale. Just like her grand daughter's in Spirit Tracks.

Why would her skin color need to be changed?

And Spirit Tracks came 6 years later. Why is it relevant in any way? They designed a character to look like someone in a game that wouldn't be out for over half a decade?

 

[ShironRedshift]

?
Worker's tan = worker's tan.
I thought my post was very clear. What are you having trouble with?
Tetra's natural skin color is pale. Just like her grand daughter's in Spirit Tracks.

What if the King though, who had a very similar skin tone to Tetra? And what of Link? If it's really just a tan, than shouldn't he, the definition of an outdoorsman (err, child in WW's case), have one too? Nothing about this really works.

 

[staticneuron]

Tks for your answer (actual intelligent answer!).
If a character suddendly becomes "evil" and you want to portray it visually, it can become darker in look (skin included). Those are characters, not real persons afterall. I think we would have a point with this thread if most evil characters really were "black". Not stupid stuff with no meaning like Scar in The Lion King but evil character that would share physical traits (more than just skin) and evident cultural aspects making them africans, afro-americans, etc. The problem with this thread is that those characters ARE rare. Thinking about it, I would even wonder where are "black" evil characters? Can we also be protrayed as some ultimate bad guys or the ultimate bad guys always have to be white? Seriously its the same ratio there than with leading black hero characters.

There is a reason the video with the doll test is posted multiple time in this thread. It isn't just about race. This habit the media has of doing this actually promotes colorism. It actually has tangible effects on the way people think and perceive other people. It changes peoples perspective so much that having lighter skin is akin to beauty and people are judged based off of their looks. People with tanned or darker skin get passed over, assumed to be poor or untrustworthy, and in some cases evil. The media (not only games of course) has a huge part to play in this. This is the reasoning for so much skin bleaching trends not only in china or korea but countries were people have darker skin. India, Jamaica, America we have all seen examples in these countries because of the thought that being darker means less desirable and less beautiful. So the thing here is that one of the steps that can help this from being such an obnoxious issue is to cease with the lazy trope of just darkening the skin to represent evil. You cannot visualize evil. People in real life don't go through a skin change when they decide to do evil tasks, nor do they wear signs denoting they are evil. So in a game where there is an evil doppleganger, it would be nice if they avoided the skin change and just use other changes or methods to visually separate evil character from good character. People have posted in this thread numerous examples of effective changes that get the point across without darkening the skin.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Y'all can handle bird and tree people but a tanned or dark skinned princess is too much for you

 

[staticneuron]

Y'all can handle bird and tree people but a tanned or dark skinned princess is too much for you

We'll leave constant misrepresentation of bird and tree people to you. You could be their ambassador. I am sure you can regale us of real world examples that explains their plight to us.

 

[ScientificPizza]

Y'all can handle bird and tree people but a tanned or dark skinned princess is too much for you

It's like how it's fine for the Witcher not to have black people because it's European. Your imaginations can extend to talking trees whose insides are filled with ladders and torches and chests but you draw the line at having to act like dark skinned people are actually people

 

[The Adder]

Tetra's natural skin color is pale

That's her dad.

 

[Nanashrew]

That's her dad.

That's actually her ancestor. The princess in the painting in Hyrule Castle is his daughter. It's been generations since the great flood happened that put Hyrule at the bottom of the ocean.

Only known parent to Tetra is her mother who passed away early on leaving Tetra an orphan. She was a pirate and captain of the ship and crew that Tetra now commands. Her only picture is in Tetra's cabin.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

Why would her skin color need to be changed?

And Spirit Tracks came 6 years later. Why is it relevant in any way? They designed a character to look like someone in a game that wouldn't be out for over half a decade?

I was just pointing out her nearest direct relative that we see a lot of. Her ancestor in OOT also had pale skin, and her mother also had somewhat pale skin as seen in her portrait. All evidence points to her having naturally pale skin.

What if the King though, who had a very similar skin tone to Tetra? And what of Link? If it's really just a tan, than shouldn't he, the definition of an outdoorsman (err, child in WW's case), have one too? Nothing about this really works.

This goes back to what I was talking about before with standards of beauty. The king is allowed to look seasoned because he is a man and not a dainty princess.

There's a difference between a career pirate who is always at sea, and someone who lives on the beach. Yes, realistically, Link should be more tan. As a career adventurer, he should be more tan in all of the games really. I'm just explaining why the princessification of Tetra made her paler though. It's the same reason she starts putting her hand to her heart and constantly making worried expressions and drops her aggressive body language.

That's her dad.

That is not her dad. That is a King from the time of old Hyrule where Zelda, his daughter, was white as a sheet.

 

[13ruce]

All i want to know is why is Sheik's situation fine but Tetra not?

Zelda turns into a tanned ninja with red eyes and in the end of the game she is pale white again and a princess.

If that case is fine then Tetra's case is aswell unless someone could give me a solid explanation why in Sheik's case it's okay.

Edit: it's probably magic and not really a real world explaination sure it's kinda dumb but it's a video game.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

What if the King though, who had a very similar skin tone to Tetra? And what of Link? If it's really just a tan, than shouldn't he, the definition of an outdoorsman (err, child in WW's case), have one too? Nothing about this really works.

It's almost as if they have a very narrow scope of what they want Zelda and Link to look like, even if it defies logic...but no, that's too obvious and easy and answer to go with

 

[ScientificPizza]

All i want to know is why is Sheik's situation fine but Tetra not?

Zelda turns into a tanned ninja with red eyes and in the end of the game she is pale white again and a princess.

If that case is fine then Tetra's case is aswell unless someone could give me a solid explanation why in Sheik's case it's okay.

Why do you think Sheik's situation is fine?

The main difference is that Sheik is actively trying to pass as a sheikah who have brown skin. Zelda is more likely to be in brownface than having her actual skin colour changed, but that is still not great for obvious reasons

 

[SomTervo]

Darkness is often equated with evil and movies amd games depict that darkness in themes. Most villains I know are white and have some dark color associated with it. I see this more as race angle of the association of darkness and skin color vs darkness/evil and dark colors. Think gandolf the white, Vader and papaltine in black. Samuel L Jackson in purple and black as a super villian with a comic book nod in unbreakable Japanese use this a lot race/ethnicity to depict it vs the clothing but I don't see it rise to the level of intentional or proposed racism. At least outside of Japan (staring rn at evil Ryu on my switch). Is it intentional racism in Japanese games? I don't know but I don't think so. Is it offensive? Clearly to some. I think it's more playing to the overall psychology of dark vs light and good vs evil.

I don't profess to be a PhD in the subject but clearly since the beginning of visual media and in books before that this has existed. Even biblically these are basic themes of good vs evil. Light vs dark.

Nobody says it's intentional racism.

As always, OP needs a primer on "institutionalised"/"structural" racism(/prejudice).

It's an inherent expectation/default that a group/culture doesnt think about or consider - it's part of the norm - but which is actually problematic.

 

[Nanashrew]

It's almost as if they have a very narrow scope of what they want Zelda and Link to look like, even if it defies logic...but no, that's too obvious and easy and answer to go with

Nintendo can't even lower case Toad in a pun on Twitter because it goes against the branding. So yeah.

 

[13ruce]

Why do you think Sheik's situation is fine?

The main difference is that Sheik is actively trying to pass as a sheikah who have brown skin. Zelda is more likely to be in brownface than having her actual skin colour changed, but that is still not great for obvious reasons

Well i see everyones concern about Tetra but no comment about Sheik that's why i wondered why Sheik has not been mentioned yet.

 

[SomTervo]

?
Worker's tan = worker's tan.
I thought my post was very clear. What are you having trouble with?
Tetra's natural skin color is pale. Just like her grand daughter's in Spirit Tracks.

This thread has examples of times when the "evil" version arbitrarily has darker skin. Cases where it's nothing to do with their life style. I didn't realise you were talking about a specific character.

It can still be a problematic pattern in representation.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

It's almost as if they have a very narrow scope of what they want Zelda and Link to look like, even if it defies logic...but no, that's too obvious and easy and answer to go with

Yes, so very narrow...

Up to Wind Waker, Link and Zelda didn't have a complete established design. They shared similar features, but they all looked more different than they do these days.

(I'd argue though that it was after Wind Waker that the design of Link and Zelda finally became solidified and established, but before it was vaguely similar but different.)

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Yes, so very narrow...


Up to Wind Waker, Link and Zelda didn't have a complete established design. They shared similar features, but they all looked more different than they do these days.

Zelda 1 and maybe 2 are literally the only exceptions. How you guys see these designs as drastically different is bizarre. You guys act like I'm saying something crazy when I say Nintendo refuses to change up Zelda and Link. This all comes back to the crux of it Nintendo sees differences in skin tons as more drastic than differences in hair color. And that's generally the case. In pretty much every culture, differences in skin color are seen as more significant than differences in hair color. Some of you are pretending this isn't the case for reasons beyond me. Now if it's a question of whether that should be the case, obviously not, because skin color makes no difference, but this is a discussion of whether it is the case and some of you are looking dumb by denying it

 

[TheExecutive]

I am not even sure the assumption in the OT is true. The majority of evil characters that come to mind are white for me. Would be interesting for someone to do an actual analysis with villians to see where it stands.

 

[Nanashrew]

Yes, so very narrow...


Up to Wind Waker, Link and Zelda didn't have a complete established design. They shared similar features, but they all looked more different than they do these days.

There's a strong theme in that image though. Despite how different the proportions are they kept everything about Zelda's design. Hair can sometimes be a different color though like blonde or brown. Though Four Swords is more red and it makes me think of Blossom from the Power Puff Girls.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I was just pointing out her nearest direct relative that we see a lot of. Her ancestor in OOT also had pale skin, and her mother also had somewhat pale skin as seen in her portrait. All evidence points to her having naturally pale skin.

Her nearest direct relative is her mom in a sepia-toned photo. And her only other ancestor is the King, who has notably darker skin than her Zelda form.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Zelda 1 and maybe 2 are literally the only exceptions. How you guys see these designs as drastically different is bizarre. You guys act like I'm saying something crazy when I say Nintendo refuses to change up Zelda and Link

Hair style, hair color, uniform design, body structure, and even age were things not set in stone and changed depending on the game. After Wind Waker, I have to say they'd became set in stone on how they wanted them to appear, but before it was still only vague on what they wanted them to look like with only a few features carrying over.

 

[Two Words]

There's a strong theme in that image though. Despite how different the proportions are they kept everything about Zelda's design. Hair can sometimes be a different color though like blonde or brown. Though Four Swords is more red and it makes me think of Blossom from the Power Puff Girls.

And everything would be destroyed if she was tanned in one iteration?

 

[Nanashrew]

And everything would be destroyed if she was tanned in one iteration?

No?

 

[RPGam3r]

Hair style, hair color, uniform design, body structure, and even age were things not set in stone and changed depending on the game. After Wind Waker, I have to say they'd became set in stone on how they wanted them to appear, but before it was still only vague on what they wanted them to look like.

For being vague they all seem to share a lot of designs choices despite stylistic differences.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

And everything would be destroyed if she was tanned in one iteration?

Who are you even responding to? What are you even responding to? Name a single person in here that mentioned "everything would be destroyed" in relation to this. Name a single person that even said "I wouldn't want a tanned Zelda"

Hair style, hair color, uniform design, body structure, and even age were things not set in stone and changed depending on the game. After Wind Waker, I have to say they'd became set in stone on how they wanted them to appear, but before it was still only vague on what they wanted them to look like with only a few features carrying over.

Are you seriously trying to imply these all don't share a very common set of design features? FFS, this board is ridiculous sometimes. I'm not even saying Zelda can't be tanned, I'm saying they seemed to make her no so because they feel it strays too far from her typical design and some of you are acting like I'm pulling this out of my ass when it's been supporting by nearly every Zelda game

 

[ScientificPizza]

Who are you even responding to? What are you even responding to? Name a single person in here that mentioned "everything would be destroyed" in relation to this. Name a single person that even said "I wouldn't want a tanned Zelda"

Yet people seem to be bending over backwards to justify it instead of simply saying "yeah that's shitty"

 

[nel e nel]

Eh, never mind, this thread is straight fuckery at this point. People using 2 or 3 games as proof that decades of media are somehow irrelevant.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

For being vague they all seem to share a lot of designs choices despite stylistic differences.

That's what I mean by vague. The stylistic differences, and that's what I'm talking about. Wind Waker was the biggest departure of Zelda's artstyle at the time, a darker skin Zelda wouldn't have changed anything it would be another stylistic difference to add to the list. One that would make sense from the world they inhabit and who she really is, Tetra. Her turning into a pale princess doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Two Words]

Who are you even responding to? What are you even responding to? Name a single person in here that mentioned "everything would be destroyed" in relation to this. Name a single person that even said "I wouldn't want a tanned Zelda"

I never said anybody said anything.