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I think I might lose my best friend today...

S

Scorpion Soldier

Member
So, earlier today I was browsing the thread about someone's brother wanting to weigh in on the pros and cons of vaccination (http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1381461). Normally I don't really discuss stuff I read on GAF, but in a conversation with my best friend I mentioned it briefly.

Now, I'm always up for discussion on things, but my best friend revealed that she had an anti-vaccination stance. To my regret, I went into it, which started a shit storm of unknown scale...

In all of this I'll admit that at one point I did go a bit overboard, but in my opinion there is some seriously questionable stuff going on in that conversation... I got a few quotes from it, translated from Dutch, to provide some insight into the situation.

Me:
But why is that your stance?
Click to expand...
Her:
A doctor told me brother when they had a kid that vaccines cause autism and I read a lot about it on the internet.
Click to expand...
Me:
But what about all of the stuff and people that say they don't?
Click to expand...
Her: (this is when it all went downhill)
Well I don't know where you got that, but you didn't get that off the internet.
Click to expand...

In regards to this I remarked that she was questioning my sources without giving her own, in which her response was that I wasn't open for a discussion.

Then she followed by doubling down on the vaccines cause autism thing and saying that I obviously hadn't looked into how autism works. I have autism, for context, to which she replied that I probably hadn't done enough research and that she would never let her kids suffer as cruel of a fate as autism (I took it personally, which may be my interpretation of course, but I still found it hurtful in this situation.

This was all followed by her brother starting to take over the conversation by stating how (supposedly) polio and the measles were man made creations and that vaccines are just meant to make money off of the poor. Needless to say, I asked her why he was on the phone suddenly and how this was all relevant to vaccination today in general none the less, at which I started to get annoyed because this guy was still talking loudly into the phone with my best friend remaining silent.

The conversation ended with her stating that I always need to be right, and that she doesn't get why I don't believe in some stuff, like God for example and that I didn't respect her opinion, to which I asked why I need to believe in God, but my opinion on that matter suddenly doesn't matter, to which she said that I shouldn't take stuff too literally (it's an oddly specific example, especially in they context.)

I'll admit, the situation got a bit heated at one point, and I'll take some of the blame for that. I don't even care about the whole vaccination conversation anymore, but am I wrong for having reacted in the way I did? She's like a sister to me, but I've never had a discussion filled with so much hypocrisy tbh. I don't know what to do. As always I ended the conversation by taking the blame, but this time I really feel like that wasn't justified tbh. I tried to preserve the context of the conversation as well as I could for the translation.
 
D

diaspora

Member
I'm not sure what you can really do honestly. When someone says
Well I don't know where you got that, but you didn't get that off the internet.
Click to expand...
As if getting information online somehow matters idk what inroads you can really make here.

FWIW I don't think you responded badly, anti-vaccination sentiment literally kills people.
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
I dunno if this is worth losing q best friends over, man. It's a dumb opinion for sure. But there are worse things to disagree over.
 
A

AGoodODST

Member
Fuck anti-vaxxers. Quite literally putting people in danger out of nothing but incredible stupidity.

Seems like it isn't much of a loss.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Chill out. Sometimes people hold inexplicable opinions. It's not a justifiable reason to end a friendship. If you think it is, then I posit to you that this person wasn't a friend to begin with.
 
C

CarpeDeezNutz

Member
diaspora said:
If one has an unknown allergy or affliction that reacts badly to a vaccine, maybe. Generally though the anti-vaccination sentiment when acted on can kill, cripple, or seriously hurt kids and people on a large scale.
Click to expand...

That would maybe be the only argument that would make me somewhat slightly hesitant to maybe not get a shot. My family is all up to date shot wise.
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
You're friends with a dum-dum, which isn't a crime in of itself. You probably won't get anywhere squabbling over this specific thing. Your friend has a problem with how they're processing information. The little voice in their head that should be saying "Well anyone on the internet can say anything..." is either non-existent or very quiet. The key issue is helping your friend be more discerning about where they get their information from. She's taking the first step down a road of misinformation.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Two Words said:
Yes it does, and it should. You are what you think. Somebody being willfully ignorant is a perfectly good reason to disconnect from them.
Click to expand...

People are a work in progress and what they think can change. Very very few people in the real world that I have encountered operate in the way you described.
 
S

Scorpion Soldier

Member
For context guys, my problem at this point isn't necessarily that she's anti-vaccination, but more the underlying themes that she pretty much immediately started debunking everything I said from the first second and questioning and blaming me for stuff outside of the main subject. Basically, the personal stuff is what really escalated it tbh, like the autism remark, which she said was a 100% on my for interpreting it like that.

Discussion wise I'm over the subject. Like, fuck it, right? Don't care if I'm right or wrong. This one really confused the fuck out of me though.
Have you ever seen an Amish person with autism?
Click to expand...

Shortly put: I'm hurt by the fact that she doesn't even understand why I'm hurt over some of the potentially personal remarks she made. I apologized like a 1000 times for my tone, but I couldn't get one sincere apology back, simply being told that I shouldn't read into things.
 
A

Ahasverus

Member
Two Words said:
Yes it does, and it should. You are what you think. Somebody being willfully ignorant is a perfectly good reason to disconnect from them.
Click to expand...
Being ignorant about one thing is not worth breaking a probably sentimental bond in which said thing haven't interfered before. A person is far more than the sum of it's thoughts.
 
D

daxy

Member
Does your friend live in the Dutch Bible Belt? Heard that most of the antivac crazies are concentrated there. Post-trust society and the wide availability of contrarian 'knowledge' through the internet are huge issues that haven't been dealt with sufficiently by policy makers and risk communication. We'll see how it develops, but with the ways things have been going it's a wonder that vaccination rates are so high.
 
L

Lord Fagan

Junior Member
Take a break, OP.

Don't write them off completely, just acknowledge that situation needs to cool off.

If they try to engage, be honest that certain conversations are making you uncomfortable and you'd prefer to just not discuss them.

You're not alone, lots of people around the world are coping with changing attitudes in Western society. Even family members aren't immune to these very much needed boundaries. I think these days, people are willing to respect these no-go areas or they're not. The ones that can't maintain a truce on hot button issues in the name of connections that go beyond the societal friction of the last few years, well...you'll have to make up your own mind just where the line is drawn, I spose.

Good luck, OP.
 
T

Two Words

Member
JB1981 said:
People are a work in progress and what they think can change. Very very few people in the real world that I have encountered operate in the way you described.
Click to expand...

His friend has made it clear that she is unwilling to open up at all. It's not his job to change her. If her attitude and perspective makes him no longer want to be friends with her, then just cut it off.


Ahasverus said:
Being ignorant about one thing is not worth breaking a probably sentimental bond in which said thing haven't interfered before. A person is far more than the sum of it's thoughts.
Click to expand...


I disagree. It can take one ignorant view for me to not want to be friends with somebody. I'm not Islamic, but if I found out my friend was Islamaphobic, I'm not staying friends with him. If somebody is going to be willfully ignorant about modern medicine and spread harmful lies, I don't want to be friends with them. I may try to see if they can change, but if they are as adamant as the OP's friend, I'm not going to waste my time on that brick wall.
 
Z

Zvonimir Boban

Banned
I don't know if it's worth losing a friend over but it's a welcome reminder that even your bestest and most respected friends can be really, REALLY dumb.

Although the bit where she talked down to you about autism is the kind of thing that a friend should be sensitive about so I dunno, maybe she's just a terrible person and not as good a friend as you think she is?
 
E

Elfotografoalocado

Banned
Well, without being autistic, the thing that gets me the most is her co-opting your autism spectrum disorder, that to me is something only a privileged asshole would do.
From what I read, she's explaining your fucking condition to you and trying to use it as ideological leverage. She is questioning your ability and that of your therapists.

Obviously if she is like a sister to you, you may want to take a diplomatic approach, but you are 100% in the right and you deserve excuses. On top of that, she's an irredeemable fanatic and shouldn't have children. She's a risk to society. And by gaslighting you and ultimately not giving the information you bring any credit, she could become hurtful in the future.

I've had similar fights/heated discussions before, but they never got personal like that.
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Ahasverus said:
Being ignorant about one thing is not worth breaking a probably sentimental bond in which said thing haven't interfered before. A person is far more than the sum of it's thoughts.
Click to expand...

Anti-vaccination is an anti-intellectual stance that demonstrates, at best, extreme ignorance but more likely willful idiocy. I couldn't and wouldn't be friends with someone who believed such an indefensible thing.
 
T

theaface

Member
Emerson said:
Anti-vaccination is an anti-intellectual stance that demonstrates, at best, extreme ignorance but more likely willful idiocy. I couldn't and wouldn't be friends with someone who believed such an indefensible thing.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much my stance. Sorry to be blunt OP, but your friend sounds awful. It's easy for me to say this because I don't have a shared history with them, but the way you've described their actions tells me that's not someone I'd want to be friends with.
 
J

Jacob

Member
CarpeDeezNutz said:
That would maybe be the only argument that would make me somewhat slightly hesitant to maybe not get a shot. My family is all up to date shot wise.
Click to expand...

I mean, there are some people who can not safely be vaccinated, such as those with autoimmune diseases or very young children. But that's a big part of the reason why it's important for everyone who can be safely vaccinated (which is most people) to do so, because it reduces the chances of someone with an already compromised immune system coming into contact with the diseases that common vaccines protect against.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
 
E

Enter The 36 Chambers

Member
What ever happened to just accepting others opinions.

I don't agree with all my friends beliefs and opinions, I don't get melodramatic and flat out remove them from my life because of it.

Damn man.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
You guys love ending friendships lol.

Freedom of association is a great thing, but it seems to come up a lot.
 
R

Ran rp

Member
oh god, do people really believe if it's on the internet it's true? "it says so on this backwoods webpage so it's valid and verified"? oh god.

we need better education
 
H

Hylian7

Member
My condolences OP.

There was the one Penn & Teller Bullshit clip that explains it perfectly. They say something like "Even if vaccines did cause autism, which they don't, autism is still nothing compared to all the things vaccines protect against."
 
mr stroke

mr stroke

Member
JB1981 said:
Chill out. Sometimes people hold inexplicable opinions. It's not a justifiable reason to end a friendship. If you think it is, then I posit to you that this person wasn't a friend to begin with.
Click to expand...

+1

One of my best friends is a Trump supporting, gun loving, somewhat racist asshole, but I still love him :)
 
Z

zeemumu

Member
Well I don't know where you got that, but you didn't get that off the internet.
Click to expand...

latest
Click to expand...
.
 
davepoobond

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
you should teach her there are consequences for being an anti-vaxxer and that includes not being her friend any longer
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
You're prepared to lose a good friend to a stupid argument. Who's the idiot here? What's the matter with you?
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Enter The 36 Chambers said:
What ever happened to just accepting others opinions.

I don't agree with all my friends beliefs and opinions, I don't get melodramatic and flat out remove them from my life because of it.

Damn man.
Click to expand...

Saying "nah I don't brush my teeth, it causes rectal cancer," is not an opinion. And that statement is grounded in just as much reality as vaccines -> autism.

I have religious friends and family, and I disagree with them while continuing to enjoy my relationships with them. We can debate and disagree and go on being friends.

This isn't debatable. And I have no intellectual respect for someone who believes it, so I couldn't continue to be friends with them.
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
She must not have looked very hard, and the supposed doctor either doesn't exist or is a quack.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/

(CNN) -- A now-retracted British study that linked autism to childhood vaccines was an "elaborate fraud" that has done long-lasting damage to public health, a leading medical publication reported Wednesday.
An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study -- and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible.
"It's one thing to have a bad study, a study full of error, and for the authors then to admit that they made errors," Fiona Godlee, BMJ's editor-in-chief, told CNN. "But in this case, we have a very different picture of what seems to be a deliberate attempt to create an impression that there was a link by falsifying the data."
Britain stripped Wakefield of his medical license in May. "Meanwhile, the damage to public health continues, fueled by unbalanced media reporting and an ineffective response from government, researchers, journals and the medical profession," BMJ states in an editorial accompanying the work.
Explainer: Autism and vaccines
Speaking to CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360," Wakefield said his work has been "grossly distorted" and that he was the target of "a ruthless, pragmatic attempt to crush any attempt to investigate valid vaccine safety concerns."
The now-discredited paper panicked many parents and led to a sharp drop in the number of children getting the vaccine that prevents measles, mumps and rubella. Vaccination rates dropped sharply in Britain after its publication, falling as low as 80% by 2004. Measles cases have gone up sharply in the ensuing years.
Click to expand...

Edit:

Did you know that Wakefield had invested in patents showing he was planning to profit from his scare mongering?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/11/autism.vaccines/

The author of a now-retracted study linking autism to childhood vaccines expected a related medical test to rack up sales of up to $43 million a year, a British medical journal reported Tuesday.
The report in the medical journal BMJ is the second in a series sharply critical of Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who reported the link in 1998. It follows the journal's declaration last week that the 1998 paper in which Wakefield first suggested a connection between autism and the measles, mumps and rubella, or MMR, vaccine was an "elaborate fraud."
The venture "was to be launched off the back of the vaccine scare, diagnosing a purported -- and still unsubstantiated -- 'new syndrome,'" BMJ reported Tuesday. A prospectus for potential investors suggested that a test for the disorder Wakefield dubbed "autistic enterocolitis" could produce as much as 28 million pounds ($43 million U.S.) in revenue, the journal reported, with "litigation driven testing" of patients in the United States and Britain its initial market.
Among his partners in the enterprise was the father of one of the 12 children in the 1998 study that launched the controversy, the journal reported.
Click to expand...
 
Bitanator

Bitanator

Member
So she read a bunch of Anit Vaccine shit on the interwebs and is now plugging her ears and shielding her eyes from any opinion that conflicts her what she read. Is she one of those people who believes whatever they find on the internet is truth

30a.jpeg
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
cyberheater said:
You're prepared to lose a good friend to a stupid argument. Who's the idiot here? What's the matter with you?
Click to expand...
How is OP the idiot here? Do you honestly believe being anti-vaccine is just an argument and opinion and nothing more like it doesn't affect others' health?
 
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