-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hmm...yeah, I feel like I can't get used to Mouse & Keyboard at all.
- Thread starter Hopeford
- Start date
Coriolanus
Banned
ahh true true. i avoid that problem by not playing twitch shooters that require immense precision and lightining reflexes to stand up against doritos'n'dew-fueled teenagers.
grandwizard
Member
The 'analog sticks are better for player movement' myth needs to die off already. Go watch some high level movement in Quake, Tribes, CS, Overwatch, etc (basically any FPS on PC) and show me someone doing anything remotely as impressive on a pad.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I'm the same OP. I absolutely detest playing with mouse/keyboard. Mouse for point-and-click adventure or occasional menu usage (I was forced to use it in Xanadu Next and for the hacking mini-games in Deus Ex HR on PC, used the controller otherwise) is OK but that's it.
Don't worry about it. You can play most games with a controller, even FPS.
Don't worry about it. You can play most games with a controller, even FPS.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
even if crouch jumping isn't a thing anymore
anothertech
Member
Bro.Those cables. All that set up and no wireless? For shame.Nonsense. I have the Couchmaster and I more than hold my own with M/KB in complete comfort and without the confines of a desk chair.
If interested, you can purchase here:
http://www.steigerdynamics.com/products-couchmaster-features
Coreda
Member
I map the left Alt key (directly left of the spacebar) to Ctrl in Windows, similar to the Command key on Macs since it's a more ergonomic position and uses the thumb. Could easily just use the LAlt by itself.
dcx4610
Member
No one is going to get keyboard+mouse without practice. Once you learn though, you'll never go back. It almost feels like cheating, especially in FPS games.
I was using controllers on PC even in the DOOM days. It wasn't until Quake where someone convinced me to use keyboard and mouse and showed me how incredibly precise it can be. From there, I was hooked and would never go back.
My recommendation is play something like Portal where accuracy is important but you aren't stressed by getting shot at. Play through the entire game with keyboard and mouse and if still doesn't click by the end, it's not for you. You gotta give it a chance though. There's a learning curve.
I was using controllers on PC even in the DOOM days. It wasn't until Quake where someone convinced me to use keyboard and mouse and showed me how incredibly precise it can be. From there, I was hooked and would never go back.
My recommendation is play something like Portal where accuracy is important but you aren't stressed by getting shot at. Play through the entire game with keyboard and mouse and if still doesn't click by the end, it's not for you. You gotta give it a chance though. There's a learning curve.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
The hell? You press C to crouch... with your thumb?
Not really sure I get the comfort aspect that much. 80% of my gametime I'm reclined in my desk chair that has plenty of cushion and support. I put the desk up high enough that my feet can go under it, and easily reach my keyboard/mouse. I have tried to sit up straight more when I play, just so I don't grow up needing back surgery.
I think anyone that can pick up a gamepad can do keyboard/mouse. Gamepads just have the advantage that they got more complex over time, so if like me you grew up playing in the early 90s it was 2-4 buttons + a d-pad.
I already used computers enough growing up to aim a mouse cursor at stuff, so the rest was just WASD to move, and using both hands to synchronize my movement, aim and any other mechanics like I would on a pad with sticks and buttons.
I think anyone that can pick up a gamepad can do keyboard/mouse. Gamepads just have the advantage that they got more complex over time, so if like me you grew up playing in the early 90s it was 2-4 buttons + a d-pad.
I already used computers enough growing up to aim a mouse cursor at stuff, so the rest was just WASD to move, and using both hands to synchronize my movement, aim and any other mechanics like I would on a pad with sticks and buttons.
Well, on Doom it makes sense. That game did not have mouse look.
It was during the Quake era that mouse look was popularized.
HellofaMouse
Member
Quick tip, bigger isnt always better when it comes to mouse sensitivity, try turning it down a little in games for better accuracy (turn it down from the mouse software if urs have that feature, and keep it high in game settings)
TheRedSnifit
Member
I'm basically the opposite. Controllers are one of the reasons I don't play many console games anymore.
Doom did have mouse look, unless you're referring to the ability to look up and down.
Doom did have mouse look, unless you're referring to the ability to look up and down.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Look at those perfect Metal Slug run achievements.
The games don't even have analog movement, why would using a keyboard be any harder?
Takes time getting used to. In my case it wasn't long, though, because I thought m&k was perhaps the most intuitive control scheme ever conceived, and it was a matter of hours, maybe minutes when i fired up my First DOS game. I was wrong, evidently. But I always played on a desk so my experience differs from yours
Jawmuncher
Member
Played prey with M&KB and really enjoyed it. I find that slower paced games I don't mind the setup. Have too much trouble trying to play something like Vanquish though.
There really isn't any issue if you're playing single player games in any genre with any control scheme. Whatever works best for you.
If you're playing multiplayer games, it probably doesn't matter either, but you might not win much if you stick to certain control schemes over others. Although multiplayer games usually have a ranking system where you'll eventually balance out and play games with similarly skilled players so it would work out too. (Or at least that's how they are supposed to work)
If you're playing multiplayer games, it probably doesn't matter either, but you might not win much if you stick to certain control schemes over others. Although multiplayer games usually have a ranking system where you'll eventually balance out and play games with similarly skilled players so it would work out too. (Or at least that's how they are supposed to work)
GavinUK86
Member
Started playing primarily on PC a couple of years ago after growing up exclusively with consoles. Mouse aiming just feels too damn good, I think I took to the KB+M control method fairly quickly but the key bindings in some games seem difficult to me and I don't always have the patience to find the best scheme for myself.
I don't know how anyone could play Witcher 3 with the dodge bound to Alt.
I don't know how anyone could play Witcher 3 with the dodge bound to Alt.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
No one who's uncomfortable doing that should do that unless they have to.
Total Cereal
Member
I played games almost exclusively on PC for about 5 1/2 years, and I'm still not use to M+KB, even for shooters. Some buttons I still can't use the number row or anything as far away as, say, b or h without looking (even z, x, c, and v are tricky still). I also never learned how to use the two side mouse buttons I have on my mouse because they aren't in a comfortable spot for me since I hold my mouse sort of sudo-claw.
A controller on the other hand, especially the Xbox 360 and One controllers, are like second nature for me. Everything is right there, I know all the buttons, and it's just comfortable as heck. I was a primarily Xbox gamer from 2006-2011, so I got super use to it. M+KB was so completely different that I never fully adjusted and probably never will. Even when I do play on PC, I use a One controller if I can unless it's a FPS or mouse-heavy game.
Use what's comfortable to you. Don't let others force you to use something you don't like just because it's "better".
A controller on the other hand, especially the Xbox 360 and One controllers, are like second nature for me. Everything is right there, I know all the buttons, and it's just comfortable as heck. I was a primarily Xbox gamer from 2006-2011, so I got super use to it. M+KB was so completely different that I never fully adjusted and probably never will. Even when I do play on PC, I use a One controller if I can unless it's a FPS or mouse-heavy game.
Use what's comfortable to you. Don't let others force you to use something you don't like just because it's "better".
zombieshavebrains
I have not used cocaine
It is okay OP. I sometimes prefer to play PC games with a controller too. I'm on a computer all day at work so it's nice to take a break sometimes.
I've had to get creative with some games, like I used to farm in WoW with one by using auto loot and using Xpadder. What's confusing is if anyone asks "Can you play X with a controller?" a typical response is "WTF y wuld u want to use a controler loll!?". Because I want to?
I've had to get creative with some games, like I used to farm in WoW with one by using auto loot and using Xpadder. What's confusing is if anyone asks "Can you play X with a controller?" a typical response is "WTF y wuld u want to use a controler loll!?". Because I want to?
pretty done
Member
eh, I use a controller for everything that isn't a shooter. Don't feel bad OP.
RE6 I felt was vastly improved with 144hz + mouse aiming. Just couldn't do what I wanted on a pad.
RE6 I felt was vastly improved with 144hz + mouse aiming. Just couldn't do what I wanted on a pad.
TheRedSnifit
Member
How is it uncomfortable?
I can't imagine how I'd live if I found keyboards uncomfortable.
He needs a w10 joy-con driver
Arc Christelle
Member
I think most people don't realize the issue with Mouse and Keyboard is.... Keyboard.
But I'd recommend changing up the config so that it comfortably works for you. I definitely did that for Overwatch.
But I'd recommend changing up the config so that it comfortably works for you. I definitely did that for Overwatch.
thoseAREmySHOES
Member
I struggle with KB/M as well, so I'll be watching this thread. The biggest thing for me is getting used to left shift for abilities in a lot of games. It just feels so unnatural to me, and I have to almost mechanically tell myself to press it instead of the instinctual reaction it should be. And I've tried moving it to other keys, but shift just makes the most sense... so I'm going to keep trying to learn.
crisdecuba
Member
I was in your shoes, OP, until I forced myself to play half life 2. By the end of the game it was comfortable. The adjustment for me took tens of hours of play time.
I know how you feel OP. I get the benefits of using a mouse, but all of those get weighed down by having to use a keyboard. I've been playing console games since '89. I've tried multiple times to use mouse and keyboard but I never played a game more than a couple of hours on easy before quitting. I have an HTPC in the living room now, and I feel like there's no point in trying anymore. Controller support is ubiquitous for the types of games I like. I'd say try something like the Steam controller, or if you don't mind the wired connection, something like the Razer Orbweaver/Tartarus. Personally, I'm fine missing out on what others experience.
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
You're not alone, I game on a 55" 4k tv with my PC hooked up to it while sitting on the couch
Controller is more convenient, sitting back and enjoying the show is way better than being hunched over a desk clicking and clacking
Controller is more convenient, sitting back and enjoying the show is way better than being hunched over a desk clicking and clacking
I tried for years to get used to a controller on consoles and I just can't do it. It makes sense for racing games and fighting games, but beyond that I just find using a controller unbearable. Maybe it is just my thumb dexterity or lack there of it for the analog sticks, but I finally accepted during the original Xbox consoles wouldn't be something I ever owned unless I really wanted to play a select few titles.
Everyone always made fun of how I held the N64 controller so it may just be me.
Everyone always made fun of how I held the N64 controller so it may just be me.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I do find using a keyboard for it's original, intended purpose to be quite comfortable, but I can't imagine how I'd live if that was one of my conditions for being able to imagine living.
I don't find keyboard and mouse to be comfortable in any situation for gaming other than sitting at a desk and playing genres that are optimal for it. Laying a board across my lap evokes the feeling of torture racks and unfortunate, lifelong paralysis. The last thing I need to be comfortable in my home, is to be needlessly constrained by things all over and around my body, while I'm trying to relax, and possibly get up to do things. I don't want to feel like I'm in the movie Misery, being served breakfast in bed when I'm trying to chill out and do anything, video games or otherwise.
For genres such as Metal Slug, I find that there's too many superfluous inputs all around your fingers when you're playing a game with digital, cross-directional movement and three other expected actions, as it will be using only a small percentage of the available inputs. This crowded, overabundance of incorrect and unrelated inputs creates a subconscious minefield effect, which constrains your sense of ease and needlessly requires more of your synaptic function (however infinitesimally minute) to consciously consider the actions of multiple fingers performing the same task that a singular thumb could, can and does whilst it slovenly rolls all over a d-pad or face buttons like it's giving it's lover a massage.
I don't even like handhelds with analog sticks too close to the d-pad and buttons, so why would I find this comfortable? I don't even like annoying ergonomic differences from controller to controller, between genres and general comforts, so why would I find keyboards to be infallible and all-encompassing? Trying to play a console or arcade-centric 2D sidescroller with a keyboard is like trying to draw with an Etch A Sketch. Some people do amazing things with those, but I'd prefer to use a pencil and paper.
How is it comfortable? Put it in words so I can understand how it feels to you.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Like, your experience doesn't reflect mine at all. I've got a bazillion hours in Metal Slug, and not once have I hit the wrong input.
move = arrow keys
jump = space bar
shoot = s
grenade = a
If you can type on a keyboard, you can play Metal Slug on it.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Azure Phoenix
Member
That's what I use, I can't game on a keyboard for more than half an hour before my hand is super painful. With controller and mouse you've still got the mouse accuracy but retain the controller comfort (and analog movement).
Unfortunately some games (like Overwatch) don't play nice when you try to use both at the same time, so you have to use a bunch of mapping programs and drivers to trick the game into thinking it's an unsupported controller type and then map keys to it. I fear for the day that they add D-Input support to OW because then I'm screwed.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
You've really gone out of your way to pursue that discipline. Sounds like such a chore. I would never want to do that and I would gain nothing from doing so.
This doesn't describe an experience. This doesn't tell me how comfortable it is, or why it's comfortable.
can =/= should
can =/= want
If you can play Metal Slug with a controller you can type with a controller, but why would you?
lucebuce12
Member
With the exception of fighting games, platforming games and action games, I always prefer a mouse + Keyboard.
Especially if it's a shooter of some kind.
Especially if it's a shooter of some kind.
TheRedSnifit
Member
How do I describe a level of comfort?
On a comfot scale of 1-10, using a keyboard for anything a 10 and using a gamepad is a 6.
If you think playing Metal Slug with a keyboard is equivalent to typing with a gamepad, then more power to you. But most people will look at you with confusion.
I can't play on mouse+keyboard either, and I don't want to keep trying. It is simply not comfortable. The main source of discomfort stems from keyboards. I've hated playing games on those things since I was a kid playing flash browser games. My fingers just get cramped every time. If I got to use a mouse for everything, like a SHMUP or Breakout clone, I was happy.
There was one game where I wasn't completely comfortable with playing on my controller, and that was the original Portal. I had this weird setup where I mapped aiming and portal shooting to the mouse on my right and mapped everything else to the left side of my xbox360 controller, and I played through the whole game like that without a hitch. Portal doesn't use many buttons/keys, so it was pretty easy and simple. Trying this method with a shooter would be a lot more complicated, and I haven't had a chance to try it yet, unfortunately.
There was one game where I wasn't completely comfortable with playing on my controller, and that was the original Portal. I had this weird setup where I mapped aiming and portal shooting to the mouse on my right and mapped everything else to the left side of my xbox360 controller, and I played through the whole game like that without a hitch. Portal doesn't use many buttons/keys, so it was pretty easy and simple. Trying this method with a shooter would be a lot more complicated, and I haven't had a chance to try it yet, unfortunately.
I started playing on the PC about 4 years ago now. Initially, I had a difficult time adjusting, but after playing a bunch of first person shooters they helped me get adjusted to the m/kb set up. It probably took me 3 months or so to get fully comfortable with it.
But still, even today, that's not to say that some PC game controls are too cumbersome. Some games have really weird, non standard control methods or strange button placements, and that's when I either change the button layout, or play with a controller still.
Also, I do find playing most shooters on consoles to be unnatural now. I can still play fine and do well, but it's very obvious going from m/kb to controller that sticks make you use awkward strafing movements to get perfect LOS placement which lead to strange movement patterns. Stilted camera adjustment just isn't necessary on pc, and it makes it easier for you to pick up where you left off skill wise if you decide to take a break for a week or two.
But still, even today, that's not to say that some PC game controls are too cumbersome. Some games have really weird, non standard control methods or strange button placements, and that's when I either change the button layout, or play with a controller still.
Also, I do find playing most shooters on consoles to be unnatural now. I can still play fine and do well, but it's very obvious going from m/kb to controller that sticks make you use awkward strafing movements to get perfect LOS placement which lead to strange movement patterns. Stilted camera adjustment just isn't necessary on pc, and it makes it easier for you to pick up where you left off skill wise if you decide to take a break for a week or two.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
The same way I described discomfort, as you requested.
Why did you ask me to tell you how it's uncomfortable if you believe such things to be impossible?
I've been using a controller to type since Dreamcast mIRC chatrooms, and typing with a gamepad is easy, but should only be done out of necessity because it's suboptimal, no matter how used to it you are.
The counter intuitive, awkwardness of sending PSN/XBLA messages with controllers leads people to message sparingly and briefly. Just like playing Metal Slug with a keyboard isn't something people such as myself would ever want to do for long, let alone commit to mastering for... a bazillion hours, was it?
That's an appeal to authority, and I'm unconvinced that more people are unfamiliar with typing on a controller (for better or worse) than they are with the idea of playing Metal Slug on a keyboard, in a world where:
1.) the vast majority of people with consoles can use their controllers to send written messages, and relatively few must have ever connected a keyboard to them
2.) xinput exists so that PC games can easily utilize and implement controller play, becoming simultaneously standardized alongside Steam's rise to absolute dominance
3.) programs like xpadder were created and cultivated a market for mapping keyboard inputs to controllers, for people who just do not like playing some games with keyboards
4.) Valve developed an OS and controller (including an innovative way to type even faster with a controller) to specifically cater to a perceived market for playing PC games with a controller, and amalgamating the aforementioned prevalent conditions and tendencies
5.) threads like this exist, always have, and always will, filled with quite the range of opinions
6.) Metal Slug is a game loved by an enthusiast demographic that sadly gets increasingly, disproportionately smaller than the mass market with every passing year; and originated in arcades, featured on consoles for decades before coming Steam where people are likely to have mastered the game with a keyboard the way that you have
Most of my friends list are people who can send me 'waddup' messages on PSN, and have never heard of Metal Slug, or would ever play any game with a keyboard, let alone a 2D sidescroller, if they would even play a 2D game at all these days... let alone moving with their right hand and jumping/shooting with their left hand.
I'm pretty sure most people would look at you playing Metal Slug and either go "holy shit, how are you doing so good with a keyboard?" or "why don't you just play with a controller like a normal person?"
ichtyander
Member
I know I'm kinda hopping in uninvited in this discussion but I found this post interesting and I'd like to say my take on the matter.
I can totally understand the whole lap board thing, it feels like too much effort for something that should have a bit more comfort and allow freedom of movement, and I've never really been able to feel comfortable in such a situation with a KB+M on a couch in any case. That being said, I've grown up playing games at a desk (or at a keyboard I should say) and don't really feel uncomfortable doing that. I like the proximity of the screen and the immediacy and precision a KB+M combination can offer. But I also have a background of playing games on old home computers like the Commodore 64, so using the keyboard wasn't as weird. Also, my dad used to "fix" these old C64 joysticks by resoldering big keyboard keys to the joystick, eliminating the problem of broken joysticks (those things used to break a lot) but also introducing me to the wild concept of more precise, digital input.
Now regarding Metal Slug and other older arcade and console games, I'd just like to preface that I've played these games on original hardware but also a lot on emulators, so playing them on a keyboard is second nature to me.
With all that being said, one could argue that being used to keyboard input for games your whole life (just like being used to controllers) eliminates the discomfort of being overwhelmed by additional surrounding inputs because your hand and fingers always land on the correct keys (I never think about stuff like WASD) and you press the correct keys without having to think about it. Likewise, one could argue that using a separate finger for each action/direction is much more efficient (while that efficiency makes the experience more enjoyable and comfortable), just like actual typing, playing the piano or other musical instruments is much more natural and efficient than using just your thumbs (or any two fingers) to do it, which might even make one feel like they're handicapped, like having amputated fingers etc, not to mention the need to take your thumb off one action to do another might create a very slight feel of anxiety or irritation, because you feel handicapped by not being able to immediately react to any given situation without potentially eliminating the immediate access to another action.
Taking movement out of the equation for a second, I find using the keyboard is pretty much exactly the same as using an arcade stick + buttons combo. I played a ton of arcade games as a kid, and placing the three fingers of my right hand (index, middle, ring) for something like a Capcom fighting game felt very natural to me and it makes pressing the correct punch/kick a very easy, immediate and efficient action. On the other hand, using WASD instead of an arcade stick could also be argued to be even more efficient, because again, you have a separate finger for each direction (except up/down) and can immediately react and move in the opposite direction, instead of moving the entire arm, hand (or thumb) in an arc, from one end to the other. Again, I'm arguing that efficiency can also bring comfort and an overall good feeling to game inputs.
Now of course, you see professional fighting game players use standard console controllers all the time (but also a lot of arcade sticks) and be at the top of the game, but it also proves that you can be just as comfortable and good at it by using an arcade stick, or even something like Hit Box's stickless arcade controllers which some people seem to prefer and which, if you take into account being used to a keyboard for gaming all your life, feels exactly the same (as in, no confusion or anxiety regarding the other keys on the keyboard).
So I'm just saying that just as you're feeling uncomfortable by having multiple superfluous inputs in the vicinity of your actual main buttons and thinking about more than two fingers for input, you should be able to imagine someone feeling just as uncomfortable by being constrained by just two fingers for input and not having each action (or a small range of actions) assigned to a specific finger, for the aforementioned reasons. So it's not exactly like drawing with an Etch A Sketch, but I can imagine it might feel that way to some people.
There are some obvious ergonomic benefits for using a controller of course, no arguing about that, I'm just saying I find the precision, immediacy and options of the keyboard to overall feel better for me, because I feel I have more control over my actions, ranging from old 2D platformers to FPS/TPS or whatever. I'm kinda clumsy playing Metal Slug on a controller, but I'm very confident and precise when playing with a keyboard.
But then again, I've beaten Super Mario Galaxy in Dolphin with KB+M, plenty of heavy action games like Metal Gear Rising or a couple of DmCs etc. so I'm aware I'm weird that way, and people will undoubtedly cringe at this, but I didn't do that just in spite, or to prove a point to anyone. I play these games on KB+M because it feels so much better to me, like I really have control over my actions and not feeling handicapped by my inputs. That being said, I've also played the Souls series on a controller, partly because the first game did a bad job at KB+M controls, and partly because the game controls really well on a controller anyway, and I have no problem with it.
Testicular Sound Express
Member
Its hard to imagine preferring a controller for shooters, but I like a regular controller better in most other situations
TheRedSnifit
Member
Fair enough.
I find using a controller in any capacity for anything but a select few 3D platformers to be clumsy and inaccurate; using the recent Zelda as an example, even basic tasks like using the Magnet ability become far more of a chore than they should be. I rarely purchase console exclusives because of them, unless I can emulate them on a PC so I can use a mouse and keyboard.
There is also a market for mouse converters on consoles, mind. People are willing to pay huge amounts of money (the PS4's TAC PRO costs $150) for M+KB.
I think you'll find that the vast majority of people playing Metal Slug, and arcade games in general, outside of the arcade have been doing so on emulators on PC, not via the official console ports. Let's not forget that the one console/handheld exclusive Metal Slug was also the last.