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Why a gay law professor is trying to shut down women-only ‘Wonder Woman’ screenings.

Majukun

Member
I'll make it simple, this is only a couple of steps from when businesses went:

"Whites only, blacks only"

And we decided a some time ago that shit was illegal and we don't desire to 'let the market' sort it out.

yeah,,there's no doubt that this is discriminatory and probably illegal depending on what country you are in..but it's a fricking superhero movie screening,just let them have some fun, this is not gonna start a female regime dedicated to the oppression of men.

of course this would be the same the other way around

...that's the problem with gender debate nowadays,it fouses so much on insignificant things that it dilutes the entire debate and makes everything a joke.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I guess I don't think a women's only screening actually looks like women's empowerment, and it certainly doesn't look like equality, but you do you.
 
So essentially he's a douchebag who lives 2,000 miles away from Austin probably won't actually do anything about this other than posture online so he gets to complain to major media outlets.

Friendly reminder that being gay or a law professor doesn't actually make you a) a good person or b) good at law. Like, Cernovich went to law school too.
 

Ri'Orius

Member
ok then go see the movie in a different theater or even at the same theater at a different time

If the point of the women-only showing is (in part) to "celebrate women’s empowerment" and a man would also like to celebrate said empowerment, he's kinda SOL. That's the point that that sentence was making.

I mean, ultimately the point of the women-only showing is that it's a qualitatively different experience, right? If nothing else I'd expect more enthusiasm from the crowd during particularly badass moments. Men who want that experience can't go to a different showing.
 
But why not, though? Shouldn't this be something the market should decide rather than enforced top-down?

If people don't agree with the idea of a theatre having women-exclusive showings, then they should vote with their wallet. If enough people also agree, then that theatre will not have enough business to sustain itself - no more issue.

Genuinely curious. I'm not sure I agree with that - by the way I live in Canada, so the laws may be more restrictive here.

I should rephrase - I think that a private business should reserve that right, not that they do have that right. I'm not super familiar with American laws.

The US already tried this before. Except businesses discriminated based on race rather than gender. And it didn't work out too well. Obviously intent was different now versus then, but this is why public facing businesses must be open to everyone under protected classes. US law in general holds that basic civil rights is something to be actively enforced rather than letting market forces determine if it's acceptable.

It's also been held that simply having access to other theaters is not enough. It's equivalent to "separate but equal," which was outlawed decades ago as inherently discriminatory.
 
Oh my god can this stupid screening be dropped already??

Let women have their crumb on this dumb issue to see a movie together.

I'd sympathize if people didn't genuinely feel 'ostracized' by this, but this feels like a huff and puff about "women only" and some weird offended stance at not being invited. There's a thousand other theatres in town, I don't get why this movie and this theatre are getting all the flack because (presumably) men are having a small sliver of fun somehow taken from them.

I do not understand this.

I'm with you 100% Dice.
 

Hazmat

Member
This article is kind of weird to me. This argument is pretty much the same argument that everyone looking to stick their (male) paw in the honeypot. The only added element is that this gay man kind of wishes they could kick annoying straight women out of gay bars.
 

Kinyou

Member
What really gets me is this:
”Just eliminate ‘no men welcome' language," she said. ”You try to make sure you demonstrate this is an event for and about women and, most likely, men aren't going to show up."
All this anger and self-righetousness is coming over one line, verbalizing something that would have been implied otherwise. Fucking hell.
I believe she's just speaking legally. That way they would have likely achieved the same goal while not having to worry about anything.
 
The whole discussion everyone is having above as to the discrimination aspect of the Drafthouse's announcement is covered in the article:
After reviewing Austin's municipal code, Stacy Hawkins — an associate professor of law at Rutgers University who specializes in employment law, civil rights and diversity — told The Post that the theater's management finds itself in an increasingly common position.

As public and private sector organizations look for opportunities to celebrate diversity and embrace historically disadvantaged groups, they run the risk of violating laws that were designed to respond to overtly racist, exclusionary practices. Hawkins said anti-discrimination law is increasingly being used to attack diversity efforts through allegations of ”reverse discrimination."

Women-only movie screenings, Hawkins said, are not the same as ”old boys" clubs that excluded minorities and women. Intent matters, Hawkins said, but the law is not nuanced enough to distinguish between malicious and benign intent.

”This new focus on diversity and inclusion is not really accounted for by the laws of civil rights and discrimination," Hawkins said. ”Law is not calibrated for our new political paradigm of diversity and inclusion.

”As far as public accommodations are concerned, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the reason this case was filed under the Austin city code is that it prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex."

But Hawkins said she remains unconvinced that the women-only screenings violate male employees' rights. In order for a cause of action under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a male employee would have to show a ”material action," such as losing a job or suffering the loss of pay. As long as male employees are assigned to other screenings in the theater, they aren't losing their jobs, hours or pay, Hawkins said.
I believe she's just speaking legally. That way they'd likely achieved the same goal while not having to worry about anything.
In that respect, the Drafthouse did cross a line by overtly saying "no men allowed". But, on the other hand, this entire threat of legal action is stemming from a group of people that likely wouldn't have attended these screenings anyway had it not been for that one needless line. It feels so ridiculous to me that so many people are getting outraged and morally indignant over an event they wouldn't have wanted to go to in the first place.
 

MUnited83

For you.
"law professor" and yet the idiot cannot even research the basic facts about it, thinks it's a "rule" and that a woman cannot go there with their male gay friend, both false claims.

I fear for his students if he is teaching them this terribly.
 
I'll make it simple, this is only a couple of steps from when businesses went:

"Whites only, blacks only"

And we decided a some time ago that shit was illegal and we don't desire to 'let the market' sort it out. I certainly get what Alamo is trying to do but I'm not going to sit here and pretend it isn't discrimination in some form.

Because these two things are clearly the same thing with the same intentions lol.
 
My viewpoint on discrimination has always been, if I replace X what they're catering to with white men only, then it's discrimination. Essentially my viewpoint is that you should never allow "X only".
 
This article is kind of weird to me. This argument is pretty much the same argument that everyone looking to stick their (male) paw in the honeypot. The only added element is that this gay man kind of wishes they could kick annoying straight women out of gay bars.

Yeah and the crazy thing is he's saying it's be like if they could kick women out forever but that's not what Alamo is doing (hell they even have several locations pretty close to each other in Austin that will also have wonder woman showing at the same time. This just sounds like "I can't actively discriminate at people so this case on non discrimination is somehow discrimination. Also 2,000 is literally another state. Like nowhere in Texas is 2,000 miles away.
 
Until someone actually challenges it legally and it actually goes somewhere (which is really doubtful that Alamo is gonna have any problems) I'm going to assume that the event is going to go off with a hitch and everyone other than sad, insecure petty men will move on with their lives and forget about it.
 
The whole discussion everyone is having above as to the discrimination aspect of the Drafthouse's announcement is covered in the article:


In that respect, the Drafthouse did cross a line by overtly saying "no men allowed". But, on the other hand, this entire threat of legal action is stemming from a group of people that likely wouldn't have attended these screenings anyway had it not been for that one needless line. It feels so ridiculous to me that so many people are getting outraged and morally indignant over an event they wouldn't have wanted to go to in the first place.

Obviously intent is different. But the law as-is would either need legislative relief or would need the courts to clarify that intent of the existing law. That's a long and expensive road to go down and one where Alamo would be better off updating the language to better explain the intent without being in violation of the law.
 
Is this like that whole "the left turning on the left thing" or is it one oppressed group not having the back of another oppressed group? I mean this event was clearly supposed to be an empowerment thing for women (and sure the theater taking advantage of that for economic gain as well) and instead of letting it happen, someone in Albany said "nope, I get what you are trying to do but fuck that" is what I am getting from this.
Or, in terms of left turning against the left, a law professor articulates the legality of discrimination, using an example of a controversial issue from a marginalized group while acknowledging it's a matter of a regressive slippery slope. And offers a 'social pressure' alternative that other business have adopted after struggling with the same issues.

And instead of simply acknowledging his and disagreeing with the spirit of what he's saying rather than the pedantic of legality, you have people comparing him to Milo only a few replies down, and then someone randomly ignoring his entire point about the legality of the situation and state that private businesses should be free to openly discriminate.

Don't get me wrong, this is pure passionate clickbait from the Washington Post, but the kneejerk extreme responses immediately demonstrates the state of discourse over something as benign as who can see a superhero movie.
 

SpaceWolf

Banned
Until someone actually challenges it legally and it actually goes somewhere (which is really doubtful that Alamo is gonna have any problems) I'm going to assume that the event is going to go off with a hitch and everyone other than sad, insecure petty men will move on with their lives and forget about it.

Give the controversy this has generated, I'm sceptical, sadly. I guess we'll see.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The screening is one thing but I agree with the Professor, the worse thing is the snide/snarky replies from the cinema staff. They're not helping their case by posting sarcastic comments on their FB and twitter feed about it.

This could have been handled in a much better way, unfortunately it wasn't .. across the board.
 
My viewpoint on discrimination has always been, if I replace X what they're catering to with white men only, then it's discrimination. Essentially my viewpoint is that you should never allow "X only".

But one could argue that in this case, the women-exclusive showings, is a positive thing. A celebration of femininity and a safe space for those who are similar to each other to embrace and share something of common interest. Why would someone want to take that away?

That's still discrimination, but it's not a negative thing. I reject the idea that discrimination is inherently negative 100% of the time as a rule. The discussion should be more about how we apply that discrimination than about outlawing discrimination altogether.
 

Nepenthe

Member
I don't think the bakery is a good example. The point of contention was that the religious discrimination extended to denying the couple all services- they literally wouldn't bake them anything... and then on top of that, they doxxed the couple. The Alamo is allowing men in to see the same movie on the same day and get the same overpriced food.
 
Or, in terms of left turning against the left, a law professor articulates the legality of discrimination, using an example of a controversial issue from a marginalized group while acknowledging it's a matter of a regressive slippery slope. And offers a 'social pressure' alternative that other business have adopted after struggling with the same issues.

And instead of simply acknowledging his and disagreeing with the spirit of what he's saying rather than the pedantic of legality, you have people comparing him to Milo only a few replies down, and then someone randomly ignoring his entire point about the legality of the situation and state that private businesses should be free to openly discriminate.

Don't get me wrong, this is pure passionate clickbait from the Washington Post, but the kneejerk extreme responses immediately demonstrates the state of discourse over something as benign as who can see a superhero movie.

This isn't really wrong, if you consider it from the lens of "why is this particular guy getting media attention." Half of Milo's appeal to the alt-right and conservative circles is "he's gay, so he can't possibly be a bigot/sexist/anti-gay!"

But yeah, it's totally a clickbait article.

EDIT: Not that I'm calling the guy any of those things, just that it's a major reason this article exists. If he was a woman it would be the same thing.
 
What specific laws is it breaking, though? And if holding such a screening is llegal, why do the numerous "Gentlemen's Clubs" in America that specifically reject female membership allowed to operate as valid businesses?

This is because they classify as private clubs that are NOT open to the public.
 

Opto

Banned
The screening is one thing but I agree with the Professor, the worse thing is the snide/snarky replies from the cinema staff. They're not helping their case by posting sarcastic comments on their FB and twitter feed about it.

This could have been handled in a much better way, unfortunately it wasn't .. across the board.
Alamo's entire reputation is built on not giving a fuck about cry babies. Snark is their game.
 
Has anyone even confirmed they'll kick men who buy tickets out?

Some dipshit dude tweeted at them a receipt for a ticket and their response was enjoy the movie or something.
 
Has anyone even confirmed they'll kick men who buy tickets out?

Some dipshit dude tweeted at them a receipt for a ticket and their response was enjoy the movie or something.

Yeah, ultimately if anyone who wants in gets in, then this is a non-issue. We won't know until it actually happens. Leading up to it, a simply language change likely would have avoided stuff like this, though.

It's low-hanging fruit for MRA types. Which granted they'd bitch about just about anything anyway.
 

Spoo

Member
I think the majority of us here would agree that there is nothing bothersome, or controversial to *us* about a womens-only night at the movies. And the *intent* of this professor is, more than likely, to stir shit.

But his point that it is illegal, is probably true, because as others have said a lack of nuance to the laws that pertain to discrimination. When you're in commerce, you sign the dotted line, and even if intent isn't to offend, once you give people certain assurances regarding equality, you can't really take those things away -- be it for just or a day, or for the entire existence of your store. I agree with another poster who said the language of the Alamo should have been purely suggestive, rather than enforced; they dodge any legal bullet, and few if any men would likely have showed up producing next-to-no controversy.
 

geestack

Member
The screening is one thing but I agree with the Professor, the worse thing is the snide/snarky replies from the cinema staff. They're not helping their case by posting sarcastic comments on their FB and twitter feed about it.

This could have been handled in a much better way, unfortunately it wasn't .. across the board.

yes, we must think of the feelings of the poor MRAs and straight white men
 

Nepenthe

Member
The One and Done™;239155239 said:
This is the shit that gives feminism a bad rep.

Are you sure it's feminism getting a bad rap from this and not the men who are outraged about this versus real issues like Planned Parenthood's governmental threats, of which the Alamo is donating to through these one-night screenings?

Yeah, from my perspective it's the feminists who are fucking things up here.
 

Kinyou

Member
Has anyone even confirmed they'll kick men who buy tickets out?

Some dipshit dude tweeted at them a receipt for a ticket and their response was enjoy the movie or something.
Anyone who actually shows up there is probably begging to spark a confrontation so the best way to handle it is probably to just let the idiot see the movie.
 

Nabbis

Member
But one could argue that in this case, the women-exclusive showings, is a positive thing. A celebration of femininity and a safe space for those who are similar to each other to embrace and share something of common interest. Why would someone want to take that away?

That's still discrimination, but it's not a negative thing. I reject the idea that discrimination is inherently negative 100% of the time as a rule. The discussion should be more about how we apply that discrimination than about outlawing discrimination altogether.

Not that i disagree but there is no actual consensus on this. Even if there were, it would change over time. This is why laws sometimes use broad strokes.
 

Eumi

Member
I wouldn't be surprised if, in some way, this was technically discrimination under the law.

But holy fuck why do people care so much? It's a theatre showing a women only screening for a female-orientated film in a traditionally male-orientated genre. You can literally just go see that same film at that same place at a different time. This 'discrimination' at most slightly inconveniences you maybe.
 
So whats the difference between a womens only screening and a normal screening? Like, do the women have an extra event like a discussion or something? Im trying to imagine why it would make a difference to go to a normal screening and a womens only screening.

Is this the only screening in town? Is it on opening day and iconveniencing men?
 
But why not, though? Shouldn't this be something the market should decide rather than enforced top-down?

Because it doesn't work.

If people don't agree with the idea of a theatre having women-exclusive showings, then they should vote with their wallet. If enough people also agree, then that theatre will not have enough business to sustain itself - no more issue.

Genuinely curious. I'm not sure I agree with that - by the way I live in Canada, so the laws may be more restrictive here.



I should rephrase - I think that a private business should reserve that right, not that they do have that right. I'm not super familiar with American laws.

Uh...private businesses can't discriminate based on skin color, gender, and a few other in Canada either. This isn't some unique American phenomenon lol.

So whats the difference between a womens only screening and a normal screening? Like, do the women have an extra event like a discussion or something? Im trying to imagine why it would make a difference to go to a normal screening and a womens only screening.

Is this the only screening in town? Is it on opening day and iconveniencing men?

Austin Alamo has like 10 rooms, one was reserved for women's screening, they were showing 4 others at the same time for everyone. It's basically men complaining that they couldn't go to that specific one.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Also, let's not act like the legal language got men pissed off.

Men were pissed off that they saw women getting something special that they thought they weren't.

The armchair legal talk came in the aftermath.
 

SpaceWolf

Banned
So whats the difference between a womens only screening and a normal screening? Like, do the women have an extra event like a discussion or something? Im trying to imagine why it would make a difference to go to a normal screening and a womens only screening.

It's about solidarity, women getting to celebrate the world's most iconic superhero finally getting her due as a group.

Is this the only screening in town? Is it on opening day and iconveniencing men?

Nope! There are other, regular screenings scheduled on the same day!
 
Are you sure it's feminism getting a bad rap from this and not the men who are outraged about this versus real issues like Planned Parenthood's governmental threats, of which the Alamo is donating to through these one-night screenings?

Yeah, from my perspective it's the feminists who are fucking things up here.

Stop debating with a straw man. A women's only screening is really stupid. What is the point?
 
Also, let's not act like the legal language got men pissed off.

Men were pissed off that they saw women getting something special that they thought they weren't.

The armchair legal talk came in the aftermath.

And until it actually goes anywhere, legally, it's all armchair legal talk that may or may not even hold up at minor scrutiny in Austin. Like, the event will be over long before.
 
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