nephilimdj
Member
I know people were getting mass banned for spamming "fuck white people", I really hope thats not whats being referenced.
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When the Left Turns on Its Own (NYT Opinion)
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entremet
Member
It's also apparent that this story is bigger than your run of the mill safe space story, which I would admit have been overblown by the media.
The President cow towing to students like that is bananas.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
They are liberals in every sense. Leftists eat each other over economic purity tests.
This really needs to be a thread of its own.
And it explains some odd, heavy-handed moderation that had me thinking GAF mods suddenly took a hard turn to the right in recent months.
Was weird seeing posters banned for discussion, as opposed to insults.
Airola
Member
Banning people who say "Fuck white people" doesn't sound like "anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters... ended up sniped en masse" as EviLore wrote:
It seems people who tried to have civil discussion but had the wrong opinion got banned.
After reading all through this, I feel like the professor doing this media tour was a bit irresponsible and I would have to concur with staff that believes that he put them further at risk. If he had invited a student or two with him to discuss issues on campus I may have had a different view, but he didn't do that. So what people get out of his interview is that the student body is completely irrational even if he is trying to be as fair as possible. Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson are not the types that can handle this type of conversation, and I listened to 20 minutes of Joe's. I'm not faulting the professor for doing this but if we need to hear all sides, then we need to hear all sides.
The President is responsible for not doing enough to ensure the student's safety, and this was the result. I'm not a fan of people not looking into the root cause of things and paint students some of which who aren't even 20 years old a certain way (and yes I've seen the protest videos as well).
One reason why I personally won't attend school on a campus is having an issue with racism and the staff does nothing. I went through 12 years of school thru HS and all the racism I had to deal with was never addressed properly and I felt fearful for my own wellbeing. I don't see how that would change on a campus especially with all the news that we've seen going forward. So I can empathize with the students going through this and I can see how contempt can rise when someone says, you just want a safe space and segregation. That's not that case I would say for most victims of racialized abuse they just want it to stop.
People have to take responsiblity for their own word choices as well. Because if you use a word like segregation as a response to a victim who wants to escape abuse, it won't end well. And I don't have confidence that people decrying these student's actions are as level headed, non biased and open minded because I didn't see objectivity with responses.
I have been called a liar by school staff when I reported my racial abuse. That's the worse feeling in the world that no one will help.
I'm not defending how the students reacted in this case but do people really want to address the problem of campus safety or just want to feel high and mighty? I honestly don't know the answer here. Anger does have a place, and it is wrong to expect people facing abuse to present it in a patable manner to you. But things have really spiraled out of control here. And again I will say the President of the school is mostly at fault for not taking the issues to consideration.
The President is responsible for not doing enough to ensure the student's safety, and this was the result. I'm not a fan of people not looking into the root cause of things and paint students some of which who aren't even 20 years old a certain way (and yes I've seen the protest videos as well).
One reason why I personally won't attend school on a campus is having an issue with racism and the staff does nothing. I went through 12 years of school thru HS and all the racism I had to deal with was never addressed properly and I felt fearful for my own wellbeing. I don't see how that would change on a campus especially with all the news that we've seen going forward. So I can empathize with the students going through this and I can see how contempt can rise when someone says, you just want a safe space and segregation. That's not that case I would say for most victims of racialized abuse they just want it to stop.
People have to take responsiblity for their own word choices as well. Because if you use a word like segregation as a response to a victim who wants to escape abuse, it won't end well. And I don't have confidence that people decrying these student's actions are as level headed, non biased and open minded because I didn't see objectivity with responses.
I have been called a liar by school staff when I reported my racial abuse. That's the worse feeling in the world that no one will help.
I'm not defending how the students reacted in this case but do people really want to address the problem of campus safety or just want to feel high and mighty? I honestly don't know the answer here. Anger does have a place, and it is wrong to expect people facing abuse to present it in a patable manner to you. But things have really spiraled out of control here. And again I will say the President of the school is mostly at fault for not taking the issues to consideration.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
The school's reaction to the professor is outright insanity. It could not possibly be more reminiscent of certain factions on this site. I agree with Evilore 100%.
Say one thing that isn't completely in line with the narrative and you are immediately labeled a racist, Nazi, or white supremacist. Nothing I've seen this professor say could be characterized as racist. It's fucking ridiculous.
Say one thing that isn't completely in line with the narrative and you are immediately labeled a racist, Nazi, or white supremacist. Nothing I've seen this professor say could be characterized as racist. It's fucking ridiculous.
This is because a lot of ideas from the new left are now closer to a religion then anything else so it has become dogma and you can not criticize dogma.
Also they are way more virtuous than everybody else and have to prove an re-validate all the time. That why over the last year there were so many topics about the terrible world or who did another impossible thing. This strengthens their community like most religions also the idea that you are surrounded by racists, misogynists, transphobes, homophobes or even islamophobes. They even invent stuff like diet racism to shove more people out of the holy halls of their own righteousness.
Also that is why there is no dialog anymore, you can not argue when any other opinion is against your own religious dogma. Also why people with different opinions now need protection if they want to speak, because as I said a lot of times, they hate free speech as much as any right wing group because both sides don't want to hear other opinions. That why there are so many echo-chambers on the internet. The internet actually made people talk less with each other now.
Edit: Just to add something. I think this is very sad, because discussion is one of the most fun things you can do and even if you can not change somebody's opinion the whole process is really fun, because it makes you think, makes you angry or happy. And there is no prize for winning a discussion on the internet anyway.
Airola
Member
Yeah, there are these weird up-moving standards of what a good person is supposed to be. What is good today might not be good enough tomorrow. And if someone is from the wrong side and says something that sounds there's some empathy and good will behind it, there is a way to spin that into the "not good enough" territory.
Like for example I've seen several times it happen that when something bad happens to a girl or a woman and someone says it's horrible and that they are our wives and children and we should protect them, someone comes and says something like "you sexist piece of shit, you should not protect them because they are wives and children but because they are human beings!"
The last time I saw something like that was in the John Oliver show said by John Oliver himself. Like, wow, you can't even give credit for a person taking steps trying to be good because apparently that's just not good enough.
It's as if people need to be so progressive that when there is nowhere to progress anymore they need to progress the progression to be able to feel they are progressive. And to progress, there of course needs to be regressive persons to compare yourself with so calling them out from something is a good way to do that. When you then have alienated the people "on the wrong side" and don't communicate with them anymore, who are you comparing your progression with then? Of course the people "on your side" and perhaps that's where the left eating left mentality begins.
In the era of social media where people can "like" things it's easy to make it look like we are good people because I just wrote something nice that got so many likes and I just liked something that sounded so nice.
Great post Evilore. Please make that more visible. Conversation does seem to be a lot better than it was last year. I wasn't aware if it was a conscious effort or just something that happened. I have a feeling I know what admin that was. There was one that used to take glee in banning and almost brag about it like he was trying to get the highest score.
That post by Evilore explains a lot. I was wonder why discussion seemed to improve dramatically at around the time that mod disappeared. Kinda ruins the whole banhammer gifs though. I suppose they kind of take on a different meaning now. Also glad I can finally say Turok was shit without fear.
Damn. I am glad this got said. Sorely needed.
Captain Zyrain
Member
This is good.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Conversation on this forum is valuable and constructive because of how tightly its curated and moderated
In real life talking hasn't gotten black people jack shit and its hard for me to judge how pissed off people become about that
The individual targeting of the professor is wrong. But the general loud anger? What seems like intolerable purity standards from their perspective seems like just being sick with the inert nature of any polite dialogue around respect for black people
In real life talking hasn't gotten black people jack shit and its hard for me to judge how pissed off people become about that
The individual targeting of the professor is wrong. But the general loud anger? What seems like intolerable purity standards from their perspective seems like just being sick with the inert nature of any polite dialogue around respect for black people
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Campus closed again tomorrow because of another threat.
Audioboxer
Member
I listen to Rogan podcasts because I really enjoy longform conversations and it's pretty slim pickings online for it. It can sometimes get a bit exhausting when people speak for 2~3 hours but Rogan does a relatively reasonable job of focusing guests and keeping them talking. It's often low ball entertainment but the podcasts with scientists or prominent speakers are always interesting for me. I do skip the majority overall. Although, I had to listen to that Steve-o one recently just because I expect the madness. It was mad. I recommend it.
Anyway, I listened to this professor and while I largely keep my head away from issues in a country I don't live in these days this is hard not to comment on. Just a bit crazy how someone so sincere, down to earth and genuinely sounding like they are a well intentioned and progressive person ends up being pursued like he's literally the worst neighbour you could ever have and a genuine threat to humanity. There may well be a difference of opinion but from someone with his credentials and his past it quite easily should be one of the most open and shut cases of the best solution here is calm civil discussion. Not what has ended up unfolding. At a University/College, of all places.
Quite frankly at this point he should leave and teach elsewhere, not because he should step down but because there appears very little hope the campus hostility and mobbing of him will ever stop. The faculty aren't going to get it under control. I understand the guy has been there for ages and has a wife working there and a lot of students relying on him, but this is indeed outrageous. He's a man of science so he would easily get picked up elsewhere. Although, ultimately, I think it's become a principle now that he won't be run off campus unjustly by mob mentality. I don't think he survives it though, the people going after him are that hostile it borders on scaring others and the administration has already folded out of fear. The "culture war" bickering online is often irrelevant, many use a situation like this to further their narrative and become stupidly hostile themselves. It's the situation on campus that matters. Although, the arguing online will always spawn from situations like this these days as it spreads so quickly and gets so many people involved. A situation on an American campus ends up with international eyes watching on.
Watching with interest but I can already foresee the outcome.
Anyway, I listened to this professor and while I largely keep my head away from issues in a country I don't live in these days this is hard not to comment on. Just a bit crazy how someone so sincere, down to earth and genuinely sounding like they are a well intentioned and progressive person ends up being pursued like he's literally the worst neighbour you could ever have and a genuine threat to humanity. There may well be a difference of opinion but from someone with his credentials and his past it quite easily should be one of the most open and shut cases of the best solution here is calm civil discussion. Not what has ended up unfolding. At a University/College, of all places.
Quite frankly at this point he should leave and teach elsewhere, not because he should step down but because there appears very little hope the campus hostility and mobbing of him will ever stop. The faculty aren't going to get it under control. I understand the guy has been there for ages and has a wife working there and a lot of students relying on him, but this is indeed outrageous. He's a man of science so he would easily get picked up elsewhere. Although, ultimately, I think it's become a principle now that he won't be run off campus unjustly by mob mentality. I don't think he survives it though, the people going after him are that hostile it borders on scaring others and the administration has already folded out of fear. The "culture war" bickering online is often irrelevant, many use a situation like this to further their narrative and become stupidly hostile themselves. It's the situation on campus that matters. Although, the arguing online will always spawn from situations like this these days as it spreads so quickly and gets so many people involved. A situation on an American campus ends up with international eyes watching on.
Watching with interest but I can already foresee the outcome.
What i always loved about Neogaf is it's extreme left leaning perspective on everything. People don't appreciate this enough. For example, i don't think I've ever stumbled on a thread in which it was allowed to have a differing philosophical axiom. Well, who said that it wouldn't be an exercise in futility? I like that everything is viewed through a certain lens and described as reality. And people here are very attentive to detail as long as it stays within the dogmatic boundaries.
This approach allows for similar people to discuss familiar experiences within a certain framework, and this is what makes Neogaf such an exotic and desirable internet corner.
There are plenty of places for center and right opinions to be had about a certain topic. I for one visit all the spectrum, distilled places are essential.
Giolon
Member
This is such an utterly fantastic post. I'm glad to see acknowledgement that the extreme positions being fostered on this board are unhealthy and that a return to better discussions is desired. I also wish that this post were in a more highly visible place
cromofo
Member
The Left certainly has been changing rapidly in the recent years. I've become sceptical of labeling myself a progressive because progressivism is becoming more and more exclusionary and "purity" based. It has lost that core value IMO. People are being pushed into groups and generalised labels; the exact thing progressives should be fighting against.
I've been called an idiot and condescendingly mocked just because I had something different to say, just after my 1st day of posting here. Not that I felt insulted, but it takes something away from the discussion.
I've been lurking on these forums for half a decade and it's evidently happening.
EviLore said everything there is to be said. Perfectly summed up my thoughts.
I've been called an idiot and condescendingly mocked just because I had something different to say, just after my 1st day of posting here. Not that I felt insulted, but it takes something away from the discussion.
I've been lurking on these forums for half a decade and it's evidently happening.
EviLore said everything there is to be said. Perfectly summed up my thoughts.
Yeah, as someone who has lurked here for only about a week or so, and just got my approval to post today, EvilLore's post has echoed some concerns I've had about posting here from what I've read.
I lean left-wing, but I always like to post in a community where I can hear another side. And, honestly, it does seem like every poster here is on the extreme left, to the point where I've seen people calling for other posters to be banned who had a different opinion (and having that wish granted). Maybe it's because I came from a forum where anything less than death threats was considered fair game, but it does appear that there exists a bubble to discourse here.
Maybe I'm totally out of line being a newbie and all, and honestly most posters here seem extremely intelligent and rational, and this is easily the most vibrant and active community I've seen in 2017, but I do see a mentality reminiscent of "liberal college safe space from differing views" in some of the more heated political threads here.
I lean left-wing, but I always like to post in a community where I can hear another side. And, honestly, it does seem like every poster here is on the extreme left, to the point where I've seen people calling for other posters to be banned who had a different opinion (and having that wish granted). Maybe it's because I came from a forum where anything less than death threats was considered fair game, but it does appear that there exists a bubble to discourse here.
Maybe I'm totally out of line being a newbie and all, and honestly most posters here seem extremely intelligent and rational, and this is easily the most vibrant and active community I've seen in 2017, but I do see a mentality reminiscent of "liberal college safe space from differing views" in some of the more heated political threads here.
cromofo
Member
LOL same here. It's quite a switch isn't it?
It'd be cool to have a "rules and guidelines" thread to have to know what we can adhere to. I'm a little worried that just saying something a mod doesn't like is a bannable offense.
Any regular users have a source that can be referenced?
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Let's pretend that conservatives didn't unilaterally make politics hyper-partisan... that anti-Obama is a platform.
Obama is out of politics and he's still the primary driver of policy in the current administration.
When you write something and the usual suspects line up to agree with you then you should take stock.
Obama is out of politics and he's still the primary driver of policy in the current administration.
When you write something and the usual suspects line up to agree with you then you should take stock.
Giolon
Member
Oh, groovy. Thanks.
R10Neymarfan
Member
And it is an issue. A lot of GAF haters and even people outside Neogaf observed and said about such things.
cromofo
Member
There have been moments of "sanity"(like this thread), but I feel it will quickly dissipate like many times before. Lets hope moments like these will accumulate.
Princess Carl
Member
The rest of your post is hard to take seriously with this statement. Do you think small scale racism is a myth? Or do you think racism is only racism when there's a burning cross or hate crimes?
Rock And Roll
Member
Usually I look at threads like these, silently shake my head at the insanity of some posts, then check back on the thread later and hope someone has taken a stand and made sense. Thank you EviLore for the post.
I've been lurking GAF since the start of the 7th generation (late 06, early 07) and what I loved about this site was the moderation. We take it for granted now but just 10 years ago it was impossible to find a gaming forum where homophobic slurs and general trolling had a zero tolerance policy. To actually have access to a site where intelligent conversation was being had was incredible.
Over the past few years, a lot of us have seen what has happened in regards to the extreme left views that have risen. I don't mind listening/reading other opinions, but watching "moderates" getting berated and ridiculed for reasonable opinions is a frustrating experience. I think a lot of us have just gotten used to not contributing in threads such as these because we feel there is no point. I am glad to see the mods have taken notice and things are going to change around here. It might take a while for me (and probably others) to start posting our thoughts because we've trained ourselves not to for so long, but I will make an effort to contribute now that I know I won't be tarred and feathered over my opinion, whether it be right or wrong.
Thanks again and I love all of you GAF.
I've been lurking GAF since the start of the 7th generation (late 06, early 07) and what I loved about this site was the moderation. We take it for granted now but just 10 years ago it was impossible to find a gaming forum where homophobic slurs and general trolling had a zero tolerance policy. To actually have access to a site where intelligent conversation was being had was incredible.
Over the past few years, a lot of us have seen what has happened in regards to the extreme left views that have risen. I don't mind listening/reading other opinions, but watching "moderates" getting berated and ridiculed for reasonable opinions is a frustrating experience. I think a lot of us have just gotten used to not contributing in threads such as these because we feel there is no point. I am glad to see the mods have taken notice and things are going to change around here. It might take a while for me (and probably others) to start posting our thoughts because we've trained ourselves not to for so long, but I will make an effort to contribute now that I know I won't be tarred and feathered over my opinion, whether it be right or wrong.
Thanks again and I love all of you GAF.
Evilore if you read this, I really hope you understand how important that post was to me, as someone who had all but left the forum because reading the threads, the moderation, it had, since the election, become a place where I was scared to post because of the general verve towards witch hunting. I am so glad to hear that there was an internal moderation issue with an Admin because I saw it first hand and believed that was new policy, I saw people in threads advocate violence towards other members, towards anyone who voted trump, people who genuinely believed in killing others because of an internal civil war that was going on in their brains and people who brought up how absurd this was got banned, I genuinely couldn't believe my eyes.
There still is, unfortunately, a few characters in this place, who go into threads and derail them, and I hope they can calm down, I dont want them banned, I think they should be allowed their views, but I really hope we can foster a community where we allow people to disagree and not be hounded out by a select few who seem to have taken up mantles as GAF's moral arbiters.
There still is, unfortunately, a few characters in this place, who go into threads and derail them, and I hope they can calm down, I dont want them banned, I think they should be allowed their views, but I really hope we can foster a community where we allow people to disagree and not be hounded out by a select few who seem to have taken up mantles as GAF's moral arbiters.
LinkAndEpona
Banned
Very well put, Trokil.
One thing I use to joke with my friend group is ask them if they remember when actual right wing evangelicists would be the ones on campus, doing their bible thumping and finger wagging, telling is how wrong we are.
Its one of those things where, if you believe you are right, most things become justified, and further, and I am guilty of this too, certainty is a very strange thing to come up against in the world. If you have someone shout at you with conviction, throw numbers at you, throw scripture at you, with genuine belief, it is compelling, because there is so much that is up for debate in the world and you cant know everything. Your immediate thought can be "Well they must be right because they are so certain of it", and then you do your own digging and bring questions, not to challenge just to clarify and you get met with, instead of discussion, vitriol, which is confusing, you get met with a series of accusations, suspicion, so you ask yourself "Ok how can I frame this question in a way where they will take it in the manner intended" and after a while you realise you cant, you will see it with some threads on here, people will have to engage and start their posts with a series of disclaimers
"Ok, so I am just an x, y and I only have experiences a, b and c and I am really sorry to ask this, and I want you to know that I am only asking because I havent had it explained to me and I dont want to belittle anyone so please dont assume that..."
And basically what you have done is you have given people utter deference to your point and entirely too much respect. Now on the other side, the other peoples vitriol is not entirely unjustified because, certain views, certain perspectives, come from very challenging and dark places and those places are not entirely their doing, but it does create a conversation gap, a debate gap, where it becomes impossible to look at the issue devoid of emotional context.
I have seen people on here in threads try and try and try endlessly to engage with people and get ignored, or, if referenced at all, made assumptions about, instead of their points being argued its their reason for asking it, a certain culture has been allowed in parts where being on message is more valued than being right. If the only way you can engage with someone who disagrees with you is to take them in bad faith, then I do not believe you have a solid argument to fall back on.
Claiming "diet racism" is something made up in order to be self-righteous undermines your entire argument. There are plenty of obnoxious self-righteous behaviors on the left. That concept isn't one of them.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
In posts laced with variations on "fag", bitter ramblings about being unfairly permed and how they totally don't care (but obviously do) and rants about Evilore being a criminal.
Vicetrailia
Member
Calling diet racism self-righteous mythology is very funny and now offensive because you've been around too long to not understand it. But some things are best Googled if this forum can't prove it to you.
thats going to be my takeaway.
Trying to convince you that GMOs aren't the devil is not what I would describe as fun, and maybe you should take a bit of your own advice?
Also yeah I just noticed the diet racism part. You need to get a fucking grip.
Alcotholic
Banned
My interpretation of what they said is that "Diet Racist" is a stupid buzzword that people shout at others to make themselves feel better. I don't disagree with what it's trying to explain, but I do think it's a dumb word. It means the the same exact thing as microgression.
This is an example of what Evilore was just talking about. It's not productive and aggressive. Why not humor Trokil and explain exactly why he needs to "get a fucking grip".
Telling someone they "need to get a fucking grip" won't help them understand, nor will anyone who reads your post who may agree with Trokil.
WrenchNinja
Member
Oh like virtue signalling
Alcotholic
Banned
nm
or purity test
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It's a pretty new term. Until recently it was "casual racism". Before that it was grandma/grandpa/your crazy uncle "having a moment".
i think it's the gaf version of casual racism
I figured, and I'm not trying to diminish what it's clearly code for, just that that specific term isn't being commonly used outside of this place, AFAIK.