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When the Left Turns on Its Own (NYT Opinion)

I figured by the thread title it'd be about this. I'm at my Senior year at Evergreen and I've been pretty confused at all this outrage. I think of myself as pretty left but this is likely the most liberal area of the country.

I don't really agree with the Day of Absence or the protesters but getting so up in arms over something so minor is embarrassing. The anger is misdirected at best at the professor, who I have never met. This is the kind of stuff that is so easily Co opted by the right (with little spin needed) as has already happened. On Thursday we had a shooting threat and the school closed on Thursday and Friday. I think everyone immediately assumed a white supremacist from Portland but I'm not sure. Nothing happened and they didn't name any suspects.

Walking to the bus stop today there's a ton of graffiti. I saw a few phrases repeated - Fuck all Nazis. No Evergreen P.D. What do we want? Class. No racist faculty.

But something I've also heard discussed is that this isn't an isolated incident and that this is the result of brewing tensions from PoC on campus feeling like they are misrepresented. I'm white so I don't have a lot to say about that. It's not my place.

In the end it's a complicated issue. I live on campus and don't know what to fully make of it, besides threats of violence towards the professor being completely uncalled for. I don't blame anyone else for being confused.
 

Dyle

Member
I have a problem with how "unsafe" has, as a word, metastasized into encompassing pretty much any level of discomfort or challenge. It seems like the specialized meaning of "safe" used for "safe spaces" is now being used to measure more general experience on campus, which is a huge fucking problem if one does not wholly support all of the arguments that tend to emerge from these groups and do not want the campus, as a whole, not individual faculty members to be so strictly held to them.

Having had friends attempt suicide, and thankfully fail, due to "feeling unsafe" on a college campus I can tell you that it is absolutely a real issue. There are tons of elements that go into it, but fostering a positive environment where students feel they can voice their thoughts is absolutely one of them. This is especially problematic at small schools due to how entwined the faculty and student body is. I am not speaking in vague nothings,this is a real problem for many students and is more complex than you are making it out to be. I'd suggest you try talking to POC at PWIs and get a perspective on how they feel and what they want. It's far from coddling, does not effect academic freedom, and can be borderline essential for them to succeed at the rates white majority students do.

I figured by the thread title it'd be about this. I'm at my Senior year at Evergreen and I've been pretty confused at all this outrage. I think of myself as pretty left but this is likely the most liberal area of the country.

I don't really agree with the Day of Absence or the protesters but getting so up in arms over something so minor is embarrassing. The anger is misdirected at best at the professor, who I have never met. This is the kind of stuff that is so easily Co opted by the right (with little spin needed) as has already happened. On Thursday we had a shooting threat and the school closed on Thursday and Friday. I think everyone immediately assumed a white supremacist from Portland but I'm not sure. Nothing happened and they didn't name any suspects.

Walking to the bus stop today there's a ton of graffiti. I saw a few phrases repeated - Fuck all Nazis. No Evergreen P.D. What do we want? Class. No racist faculty.

But something I've also heard discussed is that this isn't an isolated incident and that this is the result of brewing tensions from PoC on campus feeling like they are misrepresented. I'm white so I don't have a lot to say about that. It's not my place.

In the end it's a complicated issue. I live on campus and don't know what to fully make of it, besides threats of violence towards the professor being completely uncalled for. I don't blame anyone else for being confused.
Thanks for your input. I hope you're able to enjoy the rest of your senior year
 
Having had friends attempt suicide, and thankfully fail, due to "feeling unsafe" on a college campus I can tell you that it is absolutely a real issue
Can you go into more detail about why they felt unsafe? I'm not doubting them or trying to minimize what they felt. Just genuinely curious about what happened to make them feel that way.
 

Skinpop

Member
Having had friends attempt suicide, and thankfully fail, due to "feeling unsafe" on a college campus I can tell you that it is absolutely a real issue.

how does this happen? Bullying, threats? Genuinely curious if you don't mind. It sounds like the situation is completely out of control if students attempt suicide because they don't feel safe at campus. I've felt threatened and unsafe in the sense the I've had ideas and knowledge challenged but I guess you are talking about something more sinister and/or physical.
 

Zaru

Member
The ability to get people fired, endanger the safety of employees, students and their families, shatter reputations, and tank enrollment and budgets sure sounds like power to me.

You have to look at local power and national, representative power.
People like to deny their "local power" when they don't (or feel they don't) have "national power" because feelings of marginalization are the basis of justification for their actions. They get downright angry when you point out that they are in a position where they can abuse their power, if ever so locally.

You can move a step up to the national level and look at something like the racist christian gun nut voting bloc, which is actually well-represented and influential on a national level... but guess what, even they feel like the system is out to get them and that they're being marginalized. It's an attractive feeling to have for a lot of people.


This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

Well, now I finally have the explanation for my sole ban shortly after the election that nobody bothered to explain despite asking.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I have a problem with how "unsafe" has, as a word, metastasized into encompassing pretty much any level of discomfort or challenge. It seems like the specialized meaning of "safe" used for "safe spaces" is now being used to measure more general experience on campus, which is a huge fucking problem if one does not wholly support all of the arguments that tend to emerge from these groups and do not want the campus, as a whole, not individual faculty members to be so strictly held to them.

This is a really succinct expression of my own concern.

I am still curious why you think Weinstein opposes equity, and in particular which part of the letter you think proves this.

I'll be using the following definition of equity here: "Equity is giving everyone what they need to be successful". How does forcing white students to remain off campus for a day help them to be more successful? For that matter, how does that segregation help the minorities or POC that remain on campus succeed? All it does is further divide us by reinforcing the idea that it's a good thing to separate ourselves into distinct racial groups. And if you are going to mention the fact that it's just a reversal of this so-called Day of Absence, it is most definitely not - the key difference being that POC voluntarily excused themselves from campus on that day as opposed to strongly suggesting that white people not show unless they want to be labelled racist.

Also, even if you disagree with the professor's letter, he was clearly open to having a conversation about it with the protesting students but they refused to hear him out. It is also extremely disingenuous to suggest that Weinstein or anyone involved in this wants to see black people "hanging from trees". That kind of unnecessary hyperbole is what lead to the escalation of events in the first place.

I didn't see anyone else reply to this, but I think you're using the wrong definition of equity here. The fundamental disagreement Weinstein seems to have is the difference between "equality" and "equality of opportunity" and "equity" as "equality of outcome." It's basically not about what's "equal", but what's "fair".

The comic that always gets used to illustrate the difference:
IISC_EqualityEquity.png
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.
A great post, and I think it would be healthy for NeoGAF if you made an entire thread on the subject of where this forum has been and where it is going.
 

Kayhan

Member
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Fantastic post.

I hope you implement these thoughts as policy for Off-Topic in the future.
 
Having had friends attempt suicide, and thankfully fail, due to "feeling unsafe" on a college campus I can tell you that it is absolutely a real issue. There are tons of elements that go into it, but fostering a positive environment where students feel they can voice their thoughts is absolutely one of them. This is especially problematic at small schools due to how entwined the faculty and student body is. I am not speaking in vague nothings,this is a real problem for many students and is more complex than you are making it out to be. I'd suggest you try talking to POC at PWIs and get a perspective on how they feel and what they want. It's far from coddling, does not effect academic freedom, and can be borderline essential for them to succeed at the rates white majority students do.


Thanks for your input. I hope you're able to enjoy the rest of your senior year

Why does an environment have to be "positive" to voice one's thoughts, and why does "positive" seem to connote "the administration agrees with and treats as objective my opinion as to what the current campus problems are with respect to the minority group of which I am a part and my proposed solutions to fixing them"? The fact that even having Weinstein on-campus, after having voiced his criticisms of student activism, constitutes "unsafeness" suggests that the word has become largely a political tool, rather than a meaningful descriptor of subjective experience that has the level of intensity requiring external action to fix the conditions engendering it.
 

T.O.P

Banned
thank you sooo much for this evilore. It's really cool to hear that the owner of this site has his heart at the right spot. I was almost at a point to leave this site behind, but now I'm sure it's still in good hands :)

Yup

Good shit Evilore
 

Kite

Member
TOf course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.
Great post and I don't want to derail this thread but whoa wtf? I don't keep up with all of gaf's drama but anyone have a link or a quick summary.
 

kirblar

Member
Having had friends attempt suicide, and thankfully fail, due to "feeling unsafe" on a college campus I can tell you that it is absolutely a real issue. There are tons of elements that go into it, but fostering a positive environment where students feel they can voice their thoughts is absolutely one of them. This is especially problematic at small schools due to how entwined the faculty and student body is. I am not speaking in vague nothings,this is a real problem for many students and is more complex than you are making it out to be. I'd suggest you try talking to POC at PWIs and get a perspective on how they feel and what they want. It's far from coddling, does not effect academic freedom, and can be borderline essential for them to succeed at the rates white majority students do.
When "safe spaces" came into being in the '90s, they were implemented because it was literally dangerous for gay students to have their sexuality be public knowledge. Physically, economically, socially, etc- the danger was omnipresent and very real. This had absolutely nothing to do with someone's feelings or environment and everything to do with helping them avoid reprisal for their identity.

I completely understand that societal/cultural pressures weigh heavily on many and lead to issues w/ self-harm, but it's absolutely not the same thing.
 
The ability to get people fired, endanger the safety of employees, students and their families, shatter reputations, and tank enrollment and budgets sure sounds like power to me.

I admit that I was wrong. Within their school's community, students can have lots of power and they can certainly wield it to do shitty things.

However, I don't stay up at night worrying that college students are going to take away healthcare from millions of people.

Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds

Hooooly fuck
 
I sympathize a lot with the professor hearing his story on the Joe Rogans podcast, but he talks about that the discussion on a public level is very different from how it is privately. He says that it's being portrayed as a black and white issue from the outside, but internally lots of people on various sides of the issue have a lot of nuance.

That is very interesting, but it also makes me think that there are shallow limits to how any of us can really have a informed opinion about this.
It really sounds like this the events unfolded in a unfortunate way and miscommunication and the movement of progress just resulted in a bad outcome for everyone.
 

Moosichu

Member
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

I wish I could save this word-for-word in my brain.
 

Birb

Neo Member
So I'm actually a student at this college. I have been watching this from the sidelines for quite some time. I've been scared to speak up about it for a lot of reasons. But here is my take on it based off what I have seen and heard.

One thing the article gets wrong is that tensions started brewing after the day of presence/day of absence. It started long before that, around the day Trump got elected. The day after trump got elected, there was a protest on campus. A lot of students gathered. It was meant to be a day of unity and a day where we could come together and share our fears. But that's not what happened. We had a microphone out there where people could come share their fears and concerns. After a few white guys got up to speak, students of color started up there and saying that it was the white students fault that Trump got elected. They were telling the white students that they needed to shut up and that they had no right to speak about this because they are what caused it.

And I think that's where the tension really started.

At the time, I was taking a class from his wife. After that day, she gave a talk to the class (after class ended) about what had happened outside. She was saying that free speech was being suppressed on campus and that was the reason why so many people were leaving academia. And at the time, I agreed with her. And after that, I doubled down and focused on finishing up the quarter. I didn't want to deal with all the tension.

That changed winter quarter. Winter quarter, I began to hang out in the Trans and Queer center on campus. At first it seemed to be a chill place. It was adjacent to the Unity lounge, the safe place for the students of color, and there was a lot of back and forth between the two rooms. And that's where I first began to hear things from the perspective of students of color.

One student of color told me that he had called the police for his own protection because someone on campus was threatening him. And when the campus police came, they patted him down for weapons. Another student had an object thrown through their window. And the police came and basically did nothing. This student was fearing for their life. What they were saying didn't sound too far off from my own experience with the campus police. I'd had a campus police officer claim that i'd lied to them. That in itself is another story I'd rather not get into. But my experience with the police had been rather negative.

In any case, there was a lot of pent up frustration and a lot of fear coming out in that room. There was a lot of talk of how shitty white people were. And I suspect that this bothered a lot of queer white students. I know it bothered me. It was supposed to be a safe space but, more and more, I felt like I was the enemy. There was a particular student who really bothered me in general. They would come in an trash talk everyone. They talked about how feminism was filled with TURFS, implying that they hated feminism in general. It was particularly disturbing to me to hear them say that white trannies sucked. As a trans student, it made me feel very uncomfortable.

Eventually, I had to stop going there for my own mental health. It was rather hard on me. I'd made friends there. There were a lot of genuinely nice folks, both people of color and white. But the racial tension had gotten to be too much for me.

Then, one evening after getting out of class in February, I overheard a conversation from a teacher I admired. Apparently there was a whole thread in the Evergreener Commons (a forum where Evergreen students get together and talk) surrounding something Bret Weinstein had said. I wish I remembered more details of the conversation. But it was a conversation about racism in the sciences. And Bret Weistein seemed to be at the center of the problem.

Fast forward a few months. The racial tension was still growing. It was starting to effect my ability to focus on class. There were people I liked on both sides and I didn't really know how to feel. There was no real outlet. I found myself spending more and more time off campus. And that's when shit hit the fan. There was the big protest on campus, the one that is shown in the picture of that article. I came to class later that day and we spent almost the entire class period discussing it. And here is what I heard from some of the students of color.

Apparently a police officer had charged, unprovoked, through the group of students outside Weinsteins office. There was no reason for him to do it. The students were leaving the situation. The white students had formed a ring around the students of color to try and protect them. And this man charged through it. Whether it was to get to the students of color, they were not sure.

Then, just a few days ago was the campus shooting threat. Someone had called up the campus and threatened to come on and shoot the students. I personally believe that it has something to do with all the right winged media sites that picked up the Evergreen Story and ran with it. In any case, the campus was closed Thursday and my class that evening was canceled because of it.

After all this, i'm honestly not sure how to feel anymore. In a way, I feel like there is responsibility on both sides. Things have slowly but increasingly been escalating. The campus police and Bret have said and done some shitty things. But so have the protesters. To be perfectly honest, though, I am tired of all the racial tension. I'm scared to go back to class in fear that someone will shoot up the school. I honestly just want this all to end. Evergreen isn't really all bad. There are some wonderful students and staff. But the school has been absolutely crazy as of late.

There's a lot more to the story. But this is already a pretty long post. In any case, this has been a weight on my chest for a while and i'm kind of glad to have an opportunity to get it off.
 

BlizzKrut

Banned
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Couldn't have said it better myself, there are a lot of members on the forum that have this "it's either us or them" mentality, and won't for the life of them open their minds to other civilized opinions, because the world is either one thing or another, and it can't be more than one thing, hopefully the situation gets better, having discussion with more than one viewpoint is important to all parties.
 

Trokil

Banned
Couldn't have said it better myself, there are a lot of members on the forum that have this "it's either us or them" mentality, and won't for the life of them open their minds to other civilized opinions, because the world is either one thing or another, and it can't be more than one thing, hopefully the situation gets better, having discussion with more than one viewpoint is important to all parties.

That would only work if you are actually interested in discussion, but it is more about getting your opinion validated now. Gated communities are the thing in the internet and also truthiness is now used by both sides of the political spectrum.

Also there is only black and white, no grey no nuance anymore, else the either for us or against us idea would never work. That is why you can not disagree anymore, because in the mind of many people this would question their opinion. Actually console wars were pretty similar, but also a lot funnier.
 

Dyle

Member
Thanks for your thoughts birb, I hope you stay safe and are able to graduate in relative peace. The situation is clearly complicated and has no easy solution. Having lived on a college campus with similar problems I can only imagine how frightening and upsetting all this is.

Can you go into more detail about why they felt unsafe? I'm not doubting them or trying to minimize what they felt. Just genuinely curious about what happened to make them feel that way.

how does this happen? Bullying, threats? Genuinely curious if you don't mind. It sounds like the situation is completely out of control if students attempt suicide because they don't feel safe at campus. I've felt threatened and unsafe in the sense the I've had ideas and knowledge challenged but I guess you are talking about something more sinister and/or physical.

My friend was dealing with depression/anxiety, but she cited the campus' culture as the primary environmental reason why she was afraid, not only to speak her mind, but just to seek help once her suicidal thoughts became serious. What bothered her was not any content or context about what she was being taught, but that she felt like she was not valued as a student by her professors, which led to her being too afraid to speak to the campus counselors who were there explicitly to help students like her. She didn't want content to be dumbed down, she only wanted someone among the academic faculty to listen to her and recognize that her feelings were real. I'll quote Evilore's post here,
This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.
She felt like no one within the academic faculty was able to participate in that kind of discussion, which was completely false, but was the impression that she was unable to shake. I can't say exactly how she got that impression, but that she could be in an environment that led her to think that way is clearly problematic. In short, safe spaces and the idea of "safe" campuses are often unfairly ridiculed at the expense of the most vulnerable students in need of them most.

Why does an environment have to be "positive" to voice one's thoughts, and why does "positive" seem to connote "the administration agrees with and treats as objective my opinion as to what the current campus problems are with respect to the minority group of which I am a part and my proposed solutions to fixing them"? The fact that even having Weinstein on-campus, after having voiced his criticisms of student activism, constitutes "unsafeness" suggests that the word has become largely a political tool, rather than a meaningful descriptor of subjective experience that has the level of intensity requiring external action to fix the conditions engendering it.

I don't disagree that the concept of "unsafeness" has been watered down and has been used for political purposes on all sides. That does not mean that those who say they feel unsafe are doing so because they are trying to push a political agenda, they are doing so because our English vocabulary is too limited to properly express the uncomfortable malaise that is at once physical, mental, and spiritual. There are only so many words that adequately describe this, and "safety" due to its inherent nebulousness is probably the best term to use. The bottom line is that at most schools there are students dealing with their personal demons on top of a mixture of discrimination, microagressions, and institutional neglect. We are doing a disservice and harming their education and betterment as an individual if we do not listen to them and recognize that their feelings are real, even if we may not agree with or understand the things which caused them to come to that conclusion. This is especially important at small schools where academic/social life are moire closely connected and students that feel isolated tend to become disenfranchised from both aspects of college life at once.

When "safe spaces" came into being in the '90s, they were implemented because it was literally dangerous for gay students to have their sexuality be public knowledge. Physically, economically, socially, etc- the danger was omnipresent and very real. This had absolutely nothing to do with someone's feelings or environment and everything to do with helping them avoid reprisal for their identity.

I completely understand that societal/cultural pressures weigh heavily on many and lead to issues w/ self-harm, but it's absolutely not the same thing.

Many POC and other minority groups would say that that is still the purpose of safe spaces. I have had friends who were have been verbally harassed and very nearly assaulted due to their religion or color of their skin while walking off campus, which informed the creation of on-campus safe spaces to help the victims deal with the events while coordinating with local government and police. While many point to safe spaces as being infantilizing communities where adulterated content can be taught, which of course are often cited as reasons for the creation of safe spaces, they are, in my experience, more often worried about exactly that same kind of discrimination and abuse. Whether or not they are effective is another question entirely
 

Scrooged

Totally wronger about Nintendo's business decisions.
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Amen.
 

Kinyou

Member
In any case, there was a lot of pent up frustration and a lot of fear coming out in that room. There was a lot of talk of how shitty white people were. And I suspect that this bothered a lot of queer white students. I know it bothered me. It was supposed to be a safe space but, more and more, I felt like I was the enemy. There was a particular student who really bothered me in general. They would come in an trash talk everyone. They talked about how feminism was filled with TURFS, implying that they hated feminism in general. It was particularly disturbing to me to hear them say that white trannies sucked. As a trans student, it made me feel very uncomfortable.
Thanks for sharing your experience, and wow, specifically this part sounds awful.
 

HariKari

Member
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

First time I've heard of this but it makes sense, given how the discussion was trending. I know GAF is sticky/special thread averse, but a post talking about all of this deserves to be in a more visible place.
 

antonz

Member
This was happening long before Trump. The Mizzou thing happened in 2014 and Obama was talking about this I think already in 2013 or earlier.

The problem seems to be there is not enough pushback now. You hear more and more how Faculty and Administration go along with the insanity which just ensures the cycle will get worse. If the already bad behavior is now being encouraged and treated like it should be the new norm then its just going to escalate even further
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Unlike many, I think differing opinions and dialogue, different strategies only make the left stronger. It means we are engaged.

If either the professor or the students "turn you off" the left and make you a right winger, lol, you were never really a liberal for the right reasons.

In this case, I disagree with both parties.
 

Trokil

Banned
Unlike many, I think differing opinions and dialogue, different strategies only make the left stronger. It means we are engaged.

If either the professor or the students "turn you off" the left and make you a right winger, lol, you were never really a liberal for the right reasons.

So who exactly had a dialog in this situation? I don't see a lot of dialog when people scream at somebody. I would agree with you, but the left is great lately in not having a dialog, rather scream at people or trying to silence them.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
So who exactly had a dialog in this situation? I don't see a lot of dialog when people scream at somebody. I would agree with you, but the left is great lately in not having a dialog, rather scream at people or trying to silence them.

That's why I disagree with the students .

I always lean to inclusion over exclusion. And I definitely bumped heads a bit at a very progressive institution regarding events targeting queer students of color but excluding "anyone else".

I disagree d with kicking people out because the organizers were forcing students to explicitly out themselves with labels falling into those two categories. Creating almost the opposite of a safe space for the least confident (and perhaps most in need) students.

That's why i fundamentally disagree with exclusion. It's arbitrary. Someone has to pass some arbitrary test in ambiguous cases. Identity and labels are powerful and matter and can be used against you. But forcing labels on people is something i do not agree with.
 

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Thank you for recognizing the way OT has changed over the past couple years.

It is driving many of us to stay out of discussions we would like to take part in. Hopefully time can heal the damage.
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Wow. Thank you evilore. This is the best post I've ever seen. I'm new to this board, but in all honesty, conversation doesn't even exist here. It's all been accusations and shouting at each other.
 
Great post, Evilore.

As a progressive myself, I try to take responsibility for my own actions and thoughts as we all should regardless of what side of the line we stand on. We have to do more to recognize and protect ourselves from propaganda which we are all susceptible to.
 

Tagg9

Member
*snip*

There's a lot more to the story. But this is already a pretty long post. In any case, this has been a weight on my chest for a while and i'm kind of glad to have an opportunity to get it off.

Interesting perspective - thanks for taking the time to write up. I'm a little surprised the president and other faculty haven't brought up some of these things to make the situation more two-sided.
 
Well, that explains...everything. Hope OT becomes less of an unconscionable embarrassment, and that you continue taking a cold hard look at the people to whom you've entrusted this forum. GAF can actually be a fun, informative place when posters need not walk on eggshells.
 
long post

Thanks for acknowledging this. Too often a lot of discussions end up with a number of posters dogpiling the few who offer dissenting opinions, accompanied with mockery, unfounded assumptions, etc. I hope OT continues to move in a positive direction and people can be more civil to each other.

other long post

I appreciate you sharing your story. It sounds like there's a lot of well-founded anger and frustration that's rapidly gotten out of hand. I hope you're doing better now.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Can this be Stickied? (Or the more generally applicable portion at least)
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
These are the kinds of safe spaces i don't like. because it is legitimately an issue. It gives the left a terrible look and gives ammunition to those alt right fools who cry about cucks and "left wing regressives!", that's feeding them.

Same with the people who caused that ruckus over Milo whatever speaking at the college campus. Do like what the students did when Mike Pence spoke and quietly leave.

Then you really expose who is triggered.

By the way, good post EviLore, i fully agree.
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.
Thank you for this post.

Can this be Stickied? (Or the more generally applicable portion at least)

This needs to happen!
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Can we make a thread on this post so more people in Gaf can be exposed to it?
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.


Damn it was cathartic to read that.
 
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