Support NeoGAF

[Hatefilled Vengeance]

2-3 years... he's talking next gen, surely.

It doesn't seem like MS is really looking at things from a generation standpoint as much any more. Maybe he's signing a bunch of deals right now for "launch titles" for the Xbox 4 in 2020, but there's a good chance those games will also play on the X and some of them even on the S. So it probably doesn't really matter that much.

 

[Nightengale]

Let me put in in the most simplest terms why it is frustrating, this "wait" for Xbox first-party to deliver (outside their core competencies and franchises).

In the past three years, MS have only announced one new AAA IP (Sea of Thieves) and that game is not out yet.

Has there been good AAA games announced/released in those 3 years? Sure, Gears 4 is not my jam, but it's a good game by most accounts. Rare Replay is a collection of classics. Forza Horizon 3 is one of the best racing games ever made. Halo Wars 2 is... I guess it's what fans of the first game liked. Never played it.

You know what's the consistent theme of all the games I mentioned above? They're all legacy franchises and games that we've come to know Xbox for.

If one is a fan of what Xbox has been doing all these years, which is deliver great games in the Forza/Gears/Halo franchise, then Xbox has done a decent job in the past few years, on top of sprinkles of new IP in Quantum Break, etc.

But for someone who's been hoping to see the next generation of Xbox AAA franchises be announced and set the tone and identity of what to expect, Phil is not there yet.

 

[Trup1aya]

Sure, it was worth it. But the future of the Xbox brand is worth even more. And that relies on a homegrown stable of exclusives, which comes from homegrown talent.

Which is why it's so frustrating/hilarious that they will pour hundreds of millions into something like Titanfall and Nike and NFL parnterships, which did nothing to help Xbox. That money alone would have funded multiple new studios. Which is what they need, and what ultimately will be the downfall of the Xbox brand if they can't nurture any new successful IP (which they haven't since Gears on 360).

The situation isn't even close to being that black and white. Marketing is very important.

Successful Exclusice IP is important, but It isn't as clear if owning studios is the key to success. It could be that they felt/feel partnering with 2nd and third parties is the more cost effective way to get these exclusives.

Buying/building a studio is a massive endevour- and it's never clear if such a move will payoff... there so many logistical matters to consider- does the studio need to move?will the key talent stay through the acquisition? will they fit into the company culture?

The answers are not cut and dry.

 

[wapplew]

I like Phil Spencer. He seems like a straight-shooter and it's simply a case of the fluid nature of the industry causing some hiccups. He's doing a good job based on what he inherited. And let's face it, Mattrick's mess is not a forgotten memory for a lot of people. It is disappointing that there weren't more announcements, but I understand not wanting another Scalebound incident. MS can't afford to repeat that debacle so soon. Remember the Xbox One announcement? That kind of thing doesn't blow over for years, and relies a bit on others making some missteps to help sweep it under the rug... This best summarizes how that announcement went for me:

My problem is not announce too early and fear game not coming together. That's perfectly fine reason to keeping it dark.
But they should have games ready to show they signed 3 years ago or 2 years ago but we don't get those.
It's easy to say they don't show more game because they don't want to show things too far ahead, but they need to back it up unknown games that 2 years in the oven. Are you telling me they stop signing games after 2014 and only signed new games recently?

 

[meirl]

Let me put in in the most simplest terms why it is frustrating, this "wait" for Xbox first-party to deliver (outside their core competencies and franchises).

In the past three years, MS have only announced one new AAA IP (Sea of Thieves) and that game is not out yet.

Has there been good AAA games announced/released in those 3 years? Sure, Gears 4 is not my jam, but it's a good game by most accounts. Rare Replay is a collection of classics. Forza Horizon 3 is one of the best racing games ever made. Halo Wars 2 is... I guess it's what fans of the first game liked. Never played it.

You know what's the consistent theme of all the games I mentioned above? They're all legacy franchises and games that we've come to know Xbox for.

If one is a fan of what Xbox has been doing all these years, which is deliver great games in the Forza/Gears/Halo franchise, then Xbox has done a decent job in the past few years, on top of sprinkles of new IP in Quantum Break, etc.

But for someone who's been hoping to see the next generation of Xbox AAA franchises be announced and set the tone and identity of what to expect, Phil is not there yet.

again, First Party exklusive gakes do Not and will NEVER sell a Console.

3rd party games, price etc sell a Console.

Just Look at Wii u 0 3rd party Support, best First party Support, still saleswise a failure.

 

[black070]

My problem is not announce too early and fear game not coming together. That's perfectly fine reason to keeping it dark.
But they should have games ready to show they signed 3 years ago or 2 years ago but we don't get those.

.

 

[Sjefen]

Sony have done both,hardware(PSVR, Slim, Pro) and software(games, UI updates) last 3 years, why couldnt MS do the same? MS have managed doing both in the past, what have changed the last 3 years, except Phil)? Is this the new business plan going forward, focus on hardware than software? are they starting fresh with this new hardware and will focus 100% on games going forward? Did buying Minecraft take away from software budget?

Sorry but I am a bit confused.

 

[Droopaloop]

I certainly hope they have some stuff in the works. I listened to his Giant Bomb interview and he kinda spoke the truth when it came to games as a service, at least to me anyway. I played the absolute shit outta Destiny. Have currently put about 380 hours into Rocket Leage. I mean these games give me a chance to talk to old friends I wouldn't normally just ring up on the phone. Last single player game I finished was the original Uncharted on the collection. I have 3 beasts in zelda conquered and got distracted. Started the Uncarted 2, just never had the motivation to finish. Christ my backlog is so large at this point that I should probably quit buying games. Either way, I do hope he's speaking the truth. I mean more decent IP's is good for everybody. I'm not buying Scorpio till it's 400 though. 499 is a tough swallow, like un-chewed corn chips.

 

[MilkyJoe]

My problem is not announce too early and fear game not coming together. That's perfectly fine reason to keeping it dark.
But they should have games ready to show they signed 3 years ago or 2 years ago but we don't get those.

Well you don't know what they have for 18/19, because he said he's not talking about them anymore until it's time to deliver. I'd be absolutely amazed if they had nothing to deliver until 2020.

 

[bennibop]

Sorry not buying this crap, he keeps telling us the games are coming. There is not much on the horizon and the games that are coming (Crackdown and stet of decay) look like crap.
Is he suggesting that we should go buy an Xb1x because there might be some exclusives coming in 2-3 years? How does he know they wont cancel them like Scalebound or Fable Legends?

I also thought he does not like holding back content from other consoles (which he only stated 2 days ago) and now he is signing 3rd party exclusives. Why should I trust a man\organisation that flip flops so much?

 

[Raide]

Sony have done both,hardware(PSVR, Slim, Pro) and software(games, UI updates) last 3 years, why couldnt MS do the same? MS have managed doing both in the past, what have changed the last 3 years, except Phil)? Is this the new business plan going forward, focus on hardware than software? are they starting fresh with this new hardware and will focus 100% on games going forward? Did buying Minecraft take away from software budget?

Sorry but I am a bit confused.

An interview out of E3 basically said MS knew they had to get the hardware sorted before everything else. After the RRoD stuff, then the weirdness of XB1, They needed the X1X to be solid, not just with gamers but developers also.

Now the hardware is here, it should be a software focus. As the system matures, it will be the best place to play all 3RD party titles, they just need to get some bigger 1st party titles to flesh things out. In reality, it will be the price and services that will sell the X1X.

 

[Hatefilled Vengeance]

Successful Exclusice IP is important, but It isn't as clear if owning studios is the key to success. It could be that they felt/feel partnering with 2nd and third parties is the more cost effective way to get these exclusives.

Yeah, there's a lot of examples this generation. Like if you compare MS' relationship with Playground to Sony with Polyphony/Evolution. Partnering with an external developer ended up being the better deal in the end.

MS just made a few bets that unfortunately didn't work out, despite some of the games being great.

 

[Markoman]

In 3 years there might be another Xbox. Sorry Phil, try harder.

 

[AyraSutoraifu]

More shots at Sony? Spencer is a savage.

What are you talking about?

 

[Matt]

An interview out of E3 basically said MS knew they had to get the hardware sorted before everything else. After the RRoD stuff, then the weirdness of XB1, They needed the X1X to be solid, not just with gamers but developers also.

Now the hardware is here, it should be a software focus. As the system matures, it will be the best place to play all 3RD party titles, they just need to get some bigger 1st party titles to flesh things out. In reality, it will be the price and services that will sell the X1X.

Right, except that's mostly nonsense. The people who designed the X are not the same people that would be making games. The people that work on the OS and XBL services are not the same people that would be making games.

It's an excuse. And, fine, that's the job of PR, to paint company actions in the best light. But we don't have to buy it.

 

[Raide]

In 3 years there might be another Xbox. Sorry Phil, try harder.

So what if there is? Their current direction is that games made now will work on the next systems. Spencer said is several interviews that he wants the Xbox family all together so people get to see older games as well as the latest and best.

 

[AyraSutoraifu]

In 3 years there might be another Xbox. Sorry Phil, try harder.

That's the real problem you know. I believe it when he says they are investing in software. But to what extend? In 2020 the new consoles will probably arrive, and current gen will be in their twilight years. So for the majority of the console there will be a thin first party line up. Why, why would i invest in that?

 

[Raide]

So much of the games industry, including the players, are horribly synical and jaded. With some good reasons but sometimes because that is the way they are.

Ms have exclusive games in the works but they just might not be what people want, which is usually tentpole titles to throw around during the console wars.

 

[Markoman]

So what if there is? Their current direction is that games made now will work on the next systems. Spencer said is several interviews that he wants the Xbox family all together so people get to see older games as well as the latest and best.

If we have to wait 2/3 years for new major titles, why should I be interested in X?
The things they were showing at E3 for 2017 and 2018 did nothing for me in terms of making Xbox X a must-have system.

 

[Matt]

So much of the games industry, including the players, are horribly synical and jaded. With some good reasons but sometimes because that is the way they are.

Ms have exclusive games in the works but they just might not be what people want, which is usually tentpole titles to throw around during the console wars.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.

 

[SOR5]

That's the real problem you know. I believe it when he says they are investing in software. But to what extend? In 2020 the new consoles will probably arrive, and current gen will be in their twilight years. So for the majority of the console there will be a thin first party line up. Why, why would i invest in that?

Because the next Xbox isn't coming out for a long time and people still didn't get the 'beyond generations' memo

 

[sirap]

Cool, guess I'll buy a second-hand One X once those exclusives finally drop.

 

[Raide]

If we have to wait 2/3 years for new major titles, why should I be interested in X?
The things they were showing at E3 for 2017 and 2018 did nothing for me in terms of making Xbox X a must-have system.

And that's ok. MS pretty much came out and said it's not for everyone. There will be new titles probably announced this year and next. As their marketing train takes off they are sure to have things to talk about.

Nothing on PS4 appeals to me but that's also ok.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

The thing is that he says he was focused on hardware and services as a priority - which I'm pretty sure doesn't jive with what he said a couple of years ago - but is he incapable of handling software as well as hardware? That doesn't seem to be a problem with Sony or Nintendo -- particularly Nintendo, who run two very successful hardware lines and then have some of the best software in the business. If Phil Spencer cannot run Xbox first-party software at the same time as focusing on other parts of the business then maybe he needs to hire someone as Head of Software Development and give them autonomy and a sizeable budget to improve in-house software.

But I thought he didn't like exclusive deals?

Wait, signed? So exclusives from third-party's?

What about the first party stuff?

He's probably talking about 'second party', i.e. independent developers developing Microsoft IP, like Moon Studios with Ori or Playground with Forza Horizon 3.

If you think he is full of shit you should watch Giant Bombs interview with him from last night.

Do you have a link?

Probably dead rising 5 if it's from capcom.

I really don't think there's going to be another Dead Rising given DR4 how drastically underperformed. They tried to make it appeal to the mass market and it completely failed.

So he's signed a bunch of games coming in 2-3 years? Its no wonder they didn't announce them, next gen will have started by then.

Does that mean we have nothing but gears 5 and halo 6 and forza horizon to look forward for the remainder of the generation?

Based on what we know and what we can surmise, I think things are looking like this at the moment:

2017 2nd half: Forza 7, Cuphead, Crackdown 3
2018: State of Decay 2, Sea of Thieves, Super Lucky's Tale (was this dated at all?), Ori 2, Forza Horizon 3, Halo 6

I think Phil's hands are tied. He clearly knows Xbox doesn't have enough games, but you see how he passes the buck to Nadella. Microsoft probably doesn't want to give his division the money it needs to develop exclusive games.

It's never Spencer's fault though. He's troubled by the hangovers from Mattrick's era. His hands are tied by Nadella. He's not being allocated the budget for new software.

Tomb Raider 3 better not be 100% exclusive

It won't. RotTR was disastrous for the series and doing another timed exclusive would be the exact opposite thing that it needs to get back on track.

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

So if we're going to be extremely optimistic now...if one of those are now two years from being ready, next E3 it should be one more year and will be shown. Because they had games at their show that didn't even had a release date yet and for all we know is a year away.

Either way......next E3 should probably be pretty similar to this year. I don't get why new exclusives haven't been signed in the previous years though. Sure things have been canceled and studios closed, but nothing new has been signed next to that?

 

[Raide]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.

Sorry, did not mean to quote. Changed now.

 

[Grumplestiltskin]

Talk is cheap. This was the put up or shut up year for me when it comes to Xbox and, in regards to first party development, they definitely did not put up outside of the very much expected Ori sequel. Their commitment to first party development just frankly is not good enough and unless something drastic changes I no longer hold any hope that it ever will be.

 

[Raide]

Talk is cheap. This was the put up or shut up year for me when it comes to Xbox and, in regards to first party development, they definitely did not put up outside of the very much expected Ori sequel. Their commitment to first party development just frankly is not good enough and unless something drastic changes I no longer hold any hope that it ever will be.

Maybe it will end up the opposite of Nintendo, who have a system that is pretty much only made up of 1st party games, except MS will have a system that is the best place to play the Xbox family of games and the best 3rd party games and online services. They are known at the moment for all the GaaS stuff.

 

[mrklaw]

An interview out of E3 basically said MS knew they had to get the hardware sorted before everything else. After the RRoD stuff, then the weirdness of XB1, They needed the X1X to be solid, not just with gamers but developers also.

Now the hardware is here, it should be a software focus. As the system matures, it will be the best place to play all 3RD party titles, they just need to get some bigger 1st party titles to flesh things out. In reality, it will be the price and services that will sell the X1X.

You have to assume everything that comes out of the mouths of senior managers at MS/Sony/nintendo is sent through a PR filter

In this case they have no software so they're simply trying to deflect away from a negative (no software) to a positive for them (hey look shiny Scorpio). It's just them trying to control the conversation and it is understandable but tiresome

This year has been a good one for shallow and badly judges swerves though (Jim Ryan must be doing it for a bet)

 

[Ramenman]

This reminds me of something a friend of mine saw on Linkedin a few months ago, status update from a recruiter in games :

I don't think it was picked upon by any website or forum (and rightfully so, because it doesn't really mean anything, it hinges a lot about what a recruiter thinks a "horizon zero dawn type" project is (ie nice art ? tribes people ? robots ? or simply open world rpg ?), but since we saw nothing like that at e3 it probably refers to one of those "exclusives 2-3 years away".

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

This reminds me of something a friend of mine saw on Linkedin a few months ago, status update from a recruiter in games :

I don't think it was picked upon by any website or forum (and rightfully so, because it doesn't really mean anything, it hinges a lot about what a recruiter thinks a "horizon zero dawn type" project is (ie nice art ? tribes people ? robots ? or simply open world rpg ?), but since we saw nothing like that at e3 it probably refers to one of those "exclusives 2-3 years away".

Oh this is interesting. This is exactly something MS badly needs. The majority of games during their show this year were games that are no doubt fun as hell to play, but didn't exactly manage to wow you in terms of visuals and i really do want that. That's what i always appreciate about Sony shows. You know it's a given you're gonna be wowed.

 

[darkinstinct]

So he's signed a bunch of games coming in 2-3 years? Its no wonder they didn't announce them, next gen will have started by then.

Does that mean we have nothing but gears 5 and halo 6 and forza horizon to look forward for the remainder of the generation?

Ahahaha, you really think Next Gen starts in two to three years? If it was, Gears 5 would not release this gen. Next gen will start at the earliest in 2021. The longer a gen lasts the cheaper the consoles are to produce the more money they make. Neither Sony nor Microsoft have an interest to start next gen. Sony doesn't because they are the market leader. Microsoft doesn't because if they start Sony will just build a better system a year later and they have pretty much the same problem as this gen. The only reason why Xbox One X didn't launch next to PS4 Pro was because they wanted to be better. They will wait until Sony starts next gen (which I see as happening in 2021 or 2022, prolonging last gen was the sole reason PS4 sales were so good right from the start) and launch Nextbox the year after. For that year they will just allow Scorpio exclusives to be a thing.

 

[xrnzaaas]

This sounds concerning for 2018

Forza Horizon 4
Halo 6 and/or Gears 5

Looks like a full lineup for me. ;p

 

[bede-x]

2018: State of Decay 2, Sea of Thieves, Super Lucky's Tale (was this dated at all?), Ori 2, Forza Horizon 3, Halo 6

I'm pretty sure I heard them say Super Lucky's Tale was coming the same day as the Xbox One X, just like Crackdown 3.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

again, First Party exklusive gakes do Not and will NEVER sell a Console.

3rd party games, price etc sell a Console.

Just Look at Wii u 0 3rd party Support, best First party Support, still saleswise a failure.

This makes no sense at all - big first-party games absolutely sell hardware. The Wii was a success almost entirely on its first-party catalogue. The Switch is so far a success almost entirely on its first-party catalogue. Look at the PS4 hardware sales numbers on the months games like Uncharted 4 and Horizon launched.

 

[Aceofspades]

So he is basically saying Xbox first party lineup will be dire until the end of the generation.

 

[Samanosuke Akechi]

The thing is that he says he was focused on hardware and services as a priority - which I'm pretty sure doesn't jive with what he said a couple of years ago - but is he incapable of handling software as well as hardware? That doesn't seem to be a problem with Sony or Nintendo -- particularly Nintendo, who run two very successful hardware lines and then have some of the best software in the business. If Phil Spencer cannot run Xbox first-party software at the same time as focusing on other parts of the business then maybe he needs to hire someone as Head of Software Development and give them autonomy and a sizeable budget to improve in-house software.





He's probably talking about 'second party', i.e. independent developers developing Microsoft IP, like Moon Studios with Ori or Playground with Forza Horizon 3.



Do you have a link?



I really don't think there's going to be another Dead Rising given how drastically underperformed. They tried to make it appeal to the mass market and it completely failed.



Based on what we know and what we can surmise, I think things are looking like this at the moment:

2017 2nd half: Forza 7, Cuphead, Crackdown 3
2018: State of Decay 2, Sea of Thieves, Super Lucky's Tale (was this dated at all?), Ori 2, Forza Horizon 3, Halo 6

It's never Spencer's fault though. He's troubled by the hangovers from Mattrick's era. His hands are tied by Nadella. He's not being allocated the budget for new software.



It won't. RotTR was disastrous for the series and doing another timed exclusive would be the exact opposite thing that it needs to get back on track.

Super lucky tale releases on November 7th.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Ahahaha, you really think Next Gen starts in two to three years? If it was, Gears 5 would not release this gen. Next gen will start at the earliest in 2021. The longer a gen lasts the cheaper the consoles are to produce the more money they make. Neither Sony nor Microsoft have an interest to start next gen. Sony doesn't because they are the market leader. Microsoft doesn't because if they start Sony will just build a better system a year later and they have pretty much the same problem as this gen. The only reason why Xbox One X didn't launch next to PS4 Pro was because they wanted to be better. They will wait until Sony starts next gen (which I see as happening in 2021 or 2022, prolonging last gen was the sole reason PS4 sales were so good right from the start) and launch Nextbox the year after. For that year they will just allow Scorpio exclusives to be a thing.

I can't be bothered to individually quote stuff, but pretty much everything is wrong in this post.

 

[CambriaRising]

Ms first party has been lacking since 2010. There is no viable excuse at this point.

 

[Aceofspades]

Ms first party has been lacking since 2010. There is no viable excuse at this point.

"Give him the benefit of the doubt" ™
"Wait till E3"®

Running quotes for 3 years now.

 

[darkinstinct]

again, First Party exklusive gakes do Not and will NEVER sell a Console.

3rd party games, price etc sell a Console.

Just Look at Wii u 0 3rd party Support, best First party Support, still saleswise a failure.

Zelda Breath of the Wild makes you look like a fool with that 100+ % adoption rate.

 

[Leyasu]

Right, except that's mostly nonsense. The people who designed the X are not the same people that would be making games. The people that work on the OS and XBL services are not the same people that would be making games.

It's an excuse. And, fine, that's the job of PR, to paint company actions in the best light. But we don't have to buy it.

Perhaps their budget was first for the hardware, then game investment !?

Do you know their inner workings?

Their first party is bare to say the least though

 

[shmoglish]

Perhaps their budget was first for the hardware, then game investment !?

Do you know their inner workings?

Their first party is bare to say the least though

Is this how it should be? They already have 20 Million Xboxowners.

 

[OléGunner]

One AAA first party IP announcement in 3 years is like really really bad (Sea of Thieves).
I'm expecting a bunch of outsourced new games in the time frame he mentions.

Most MS owned studios are factory productions so they can't do anything else, makes sense he'd sign deals.

 

[Skux]

If only they had this idea 3 years ago.

 

[Nightengale]

Wait, I think I did hear a rumour somewhere in the past few months that MS was exploring its own "Horizon."

I wonder if that rumor came from that LinkedIn, or if there is someone in the know.

again, First Party exklusive gakes do Not and will NEVER sell a Console.

3rd party games, price etc sell a Console.

Just Look at Wii u 0 3rd party Support, best First party Support, still saleswise a failure.

P.S. I'm talking about myself.

And the dozens of people who share my view.

 

[notaskwid]

Ahahaha, you really think Next Gen starts in two to three years? If it was, Gears 5 would not release this gen. Next gen will start at the earliest in 2021. The longer a gen lasts the cheaper the consoles are to produce the more money they make. Neither Sony nor Microsoft have an interest to start next gen. Sony doesn't because they are the market leader. Microsoft doesn't because if they start Sony will just build a better system a year later and they have pretty much the same problem as this gen. The only reason why Xbox One X didn't launch next to PS4 Pro was because they wanted to be better. They will wait until Sony starts next gen (which I see as happening in 2021 or 2022, prolonging last gen was the sole reason PS4 sales were so good right from the start) and launch Nextbox the year after. For that year they will just allow Scorpio exclusives to be a thing.

Reads like the raving delusions of a fanboy.

 

[jelly]

I would have to ask, who are the developers, let's be fair, AAA studios don't grow on trees or sit there waiting for a contract. They are either owned/contracted by big publishers, platform holders already or contracted out by platform holders and are supremely busy. It not out of the realm of possibility that Microsoft have a deal in place with one or two but I remain sceptical.

As for their own IP, studios.

Rare should be big enough to have another game in the pipeline.

343 should do a spinoff Halo already after fixing Halo MCC and launching Halo 6.

No way is Forza Horizon 4 or Gears 5 coming next year or the next.

Fable return?

Yeah, Microsoft need some studios pronto and need a collective trailblazing heart to Microsoft studios to prototype/create new IP and ideas outside of their tent pole studios, devs should get leave or something to expand and test their creativity or something at this hub. I dunno, anything that spurs new content.

 

[Killroyskbg]

Can't belive people are both defending and believing in this guy anymore.

"We don't like exclusive deals"
What do you call the Tomb Raider deal?

"We have just signed an exclusive deal"
Well now you really are confusing me here Phil.

"The PS4 pro is a competitor to xbox s..."
How the fuck are you coming to that conclus...

"It does not do true 4K"
But your own "true" 4K standard includes checkerboarding and dynamic res.

"We foucused on hardware and BC"
Even if that true Phil old pal and would explain the fucking baren wasteland your first party line up have been how is it your competition seems to have no problem doing both at the same time?


That is just the last week of comments.

 

[Raide]

You have to assume everything that comes out of the mouths of senior managers at MS/Sony/nintendo is sent through a PR filter

In this case they have no software so they're simply trying to deflect away from a negative (no software) to a positive for them (hey look shiny Scorpio). It's just them trying to control the conversation and it is understandable but tiresome

This year has been a good one for shallow and badly judges swerves though (Jim Ryan must be doing it for a bet)

Probably the wise choice. Personally I am happy with what is coming this and next year that appeals to my tastes. Sure, I would love to see more exclusives announced but, with the way MS are aiming, it will also come to PC which tends to become a contention point for some.