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Chicago gay pride parade expels Star of David flags

phanphare

Banned
The rainbow flags with the Jewish symbol "made people feel unsafe", an organiser told the Windy City Times.

Laurel Grauer said she was told to leave the so-called Dyke March "because my flag was a trigger to people that they found offensive".

The organisers later hit back, saying Israel hides behind LGBT-rights.

"It was a flag from my congregation which celebrates my queer, Jewish identity which I have done for over a decade marching in the Dyke March with the same flag," Ms Grauer told Windy City Times.

Ms Grauer, who works for A Wider Bridge, which supports LGBT people in Israel, said she lost count of how many times she was verbally harassed by other marchers on Saturday.

In a social media post, the Dyke March said: "This decision was made after [the expelled marchers] repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Dyke March Collective members."

Ms Grauer told the Times: "People asked me if I was a Zionist and I said, 'yes, I do care about the state of Israel, but I also believe in a two-state solution and an independent Palestine.'

"It's hard to swallow the idea of inclusion when you are excluding people from that," she continued.

"People are saying, 'You can be gay but not in this way.' We do not feel welcomed. We do not feel included."

more at the link

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40407057

this is the Dyke March's full statement on the incident:

"Yesterday, June 24, Chicago Dyke March was held in the La Villita neighborhood to express support for undocumented, refugee, and immigrant communities under threat of deportation. Sadly, our celebration of dyke, queer, and trans solidarity was partially overshadowed by our decision to ask three individuals carrying Israeli flags superimposed on rainbow flags to leave the rally. This decision was made after they repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Chicago Dyke March Collective members. We have since learned that at least one of these individuals is a regional director for A Wider Bridge, an organization with connections to the Israeli state and right-wing pro-Israel interest groups. A Wider Bridge has been protested for provocative actions at other LGBTQ events and has been condemned by numerous organizations (tarabnyc.org/cancelpinkwashing/&; for using Israel's supposed "LGBTQ tolerance" to pinkwash the violent occupation of Palestine.

"The Chicago Dyke March Collective is explicitly not anti-Semitic, we are anti-Zionist. The Chicago Dyke March Collective supports the liberation of Palestine and all oppressed people everywhere.

"From Palestine to Mexico, border walls have got to go!!

"[Edited to add: We want to make clear that anti-Zionist Jewish volunteers and supporters are welcome at Dyke March and were involved in conversations with the individuals who were asked to leave. We are planning to make a longer statement in the future.]"

more from the Dyke March



and this is a first hand testimony of someone else who was asked to leave:

Yesterday I was removed from the Chicago Dyke March. I am so upset that I'm no longer upset, so here is a faithful narrative of every event.

I wanted to be in public as a gay Jew of Persian and German heritage. Nothing more, nothing less. So I made a shirt that said "Proud Jewish Dyke" and hoisted a big Jewish Pride flag -- a rainbow flag with a Star of David in the center, the centuries-old symbol of the Jewish people. I snapped a picture before the March, and in retrospect my happy, proud smile breaks my heart.

I knew the March was a politically fraught atmosphere, so I went in very carefully. I ignored people side-eyeing me. I stayed away from Palestinian flags and Palestinian chants. I actively walked away from people who directly tried to instigate conflict. I thought maybe if I played by their rules, I could just be Jewish in public.

No such luck. During the picnic in the park, organizers in their official t-shirts began whispering and pointing at me and soon, a delegation came over, announcing they'd been sent by the organizers. They told me my choices were to roll up my Jewish Pride flag or leave. The Star of David makes it look too much like the Israeli flag, they said, and it triggers people and makes them feel unsafe. This was their complaint.

I tried to explain -- no, no! It's the ubiquitous symbol of Judaism. I just want to be Jewish in public. No luck. So I tried using their language. This is an intersectional march, I said. This is my intersection. I'm supposed to be able to celebrate it here. No, they said.

People feel unsafe. I tried again to explain about the Star of David. I tried again to use their language, to tell them that not being able to be visibly, flagrantly, proudly Jewish on my terms makes *me* feel unsafe. This was what I said.

But it didn't work. After some fruitless back-and-forth, during which more people joined the organizers' delegation and used their deeper voices, larger physical size, and greater numbers to insistently talk over my attempts at explanation, at conversation, I recognized a losing battle and left sobbing.

I was thrown out of Dyke March for being Jewish. And yes, there were other Jews there, visible ones even, who weren't accosted, who had fun, even! And yes, Israel exists in a complicated way. But in this case, it doesn't matter what Israel does or doesn't do. This was about being Jewish in public, and I was thrown out for being Jewish, for being the "wrong" kind of Jew, the kind of Jew who shows up with a big Jewish star on a flag. No matter how much I tried to avoid conflict, to explain. Oh, maybe there was a way I could have stayed, but rolling up my beautiful proud flag for them would have been an even bigger loss.

This was my community, where for four years I have shown up, stood up, and helped out, and I am broken-hearted.

(I do not want this to turn into a debate about Israel and Palestine in the comments. That is not what this is about. This is about being Jewish in public. Also, I have made this post public and do not mind sharing done respectfully.)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=187012131831478&id=100015680762441
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
But people on GAF told me minorities can't be bigots.
 

Sunster

Member
Israel kinda sucks. But banning the symbol for all Jews? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 

norm9

Member
This guy doesn't think the Dyke March did anything wrong.

giphy.gif
 

finowns

Member
'it made people feel unsafe' is used way too much just explain what you don't like about something don't bullshit around it.
 

azyless

Member
Sounds like they need new leadership if that's their position.
I also don't know why they're calling themselves "Dyke March".
 
'it made people feel unsafe' is used way too much just explain what you don't like about something don't bullshit around it.

"Unsafe" has become basically meaningless, used increasingly in ways that bolster the worst of right-wing rhetoric about liberals.

Just say you want it gone because you disagree with it and think it's morally or logically wrong.
 

kirblar

Member
'it made people feel unsafe' is used way too much just explain what you don't like about something don't bullshit around it.
You'd think gay people would know better than to use that justification (given how much it's been used an excuse to be terrible towards them), but... nope. Fucking hell.
 
This seems like something that would have been a point of contention long, long ago. I mean this notion that a community centering around this political aspect of people would have to deal with those people having many other political aspects to them that may be conflictual if put together.

This headline is disingenuous. The banned marchers were from A Wider Bridge, which despite the comments by Grauer is closely connected to the Israeli diplomatic apparatus and the ultranationalist organization Stand With Us.

Regardless, banning Star of David flags is a very bad look.

Oh, huh.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
"Unsafe" has become basically meaningless, used increasingly in ways that bolster the worst of right-wing rhetoric about liberals.

Just say you want it gone because you disagree with it and think it's morally or logically wrong.

"I felt threatened by my chemicals."
 
This headline is disingenuous. The banned marchers were from A Wider Bridge, which despite the comments by Grauer is closely connected to the Israeli diplomatic apparatus and the ultranationalist organization Stand With Us.

Regardless, banning Star of David flags is a very bad look.

It's not just a "bad look", it's wrong. Unless they were evangelizing for hard-right Israeli nationalism AT the event, banning them for expressing their religious/cultural affiliation is ridiculous intolerance.
 

Kisaya

Member
Yeah, this was pretty shitty. It looks like they thought the rainbow Star of David flags was another symbol of Israel pink washing, which is legitimately problematic. The biggest misconception in the entire world is that Judaism = Zionism.

This headline is disingenuous. The banned marchers were from A Wider Bridge, which despite the comments by Grauer is closely connected to the Israeli diplomatic apparatus and the ultranationalist organization Stand With Us.

Regardless, banning Star of David flags is a very bad look.

Oh lmao. Eh, still kinda shitty.
 

azyless

Member
Cuz it's a march with a bunch of lesbians, duh
It's a regular pride march that is in no way restricted or favoring lesbians, or even women for that matters, so the choice of the dyke word is bizarre at best. Specially when they make tweets about butch lesbians having male privilege and upholding toxic masculinity. Seems like the "everyone but dykes" march.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Did they really? Or are you making that up.
Many people on GAF have said that if you're a minority you're automatically not a bigot, no matter what bigoted bullshit you say or do. They stand by that nonsense steadfastly.
 

Sunster

Member
Many people on GAF have said that if you're a minority you're automatically not a bigot, no matter what bigoted bullshit you say or do. They stand by that nonsense steadfastly.

I'm gonna need receipts on that. Literally never seen it. Now, I've seen PoC can't be racist in America, which is different than bigotry. Is that what you are referring to?
 
Any chance that the parade organizers were grouping them in with hardline evangelicals? There is definitely a history when it comes to these two factions. Maybe that's where the animus is coming from. And the Star of David is such a ubiquitous religious symbol as well. Maybe the parade organizers wanted their festivities to be secular by nature?
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I'm gonna need receipts on that. Literally never seen it. Now, I've seen PoC can't be racist in America, which is different than bigotry. Is that what you are referring to?
People of color can and are racists in America, racism is form or bigotry. But I've seen the defense forces pop up for other things too.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
It's not just a "bad look", it's wrong. Unless they were evangelizing for hard-right Israeli nationalism AT the event, banning them for expressing their religious/cultural affiliation is ridiculous intolerance.

This. Unless they we're actively advocating that shit then there was no reason to ban them.
 
Many people on GAF have said that if you're a minority you're automatically not a bigot, no matter what bigoted bullshit you say or do. They stand by that nonsense steadfastly.

Are you getting this from people posting that are ok with not including privileged groups in, like, talks and similar stuff?
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Are you getting this from people posting that are ok with not including privileged groups in, like, talks and similar stuff?

There actually have been threads where people have said that PoC can't be racist because in order to be racist, you have to be able to use existing power structures to oppress who you're being racist against.

Although I would say using someone's identity to ban them from associating with another identity counts as using an existing power structure to oppress someone, in this case.
 
There actually have been threads where people have said that PoC can't be racist because in order to be racist, you have to be able to use existing power structures to oppress who you're being racist against.

That's a completely different statement than "a minority person can't be bigoted". It's a debate about institutional racism and power balance. There has never once been a significant push on GAF that a minority person can't be prejudice or bigoted.
 

Kinyou

Member
It's a regular pride march that is in no way restricted or favoring lesbians, or even women for that matters, so the choice of the dyke word is bizarre at best. Specially when they make tweets about butch lesbians having male privilege and upholding toxic masculinity. Seems like the "everyone but dykes" march.
Which tweets are you referring to? According to this site this is their message
On Twitter, the group celebrates themselves as being the “anti-racist, anti-violent, volunteer-led, grassroots mobilisation and celebration of dyke, queer, bisexual, and transgender resilience”.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/06/25/chicago-pride-faces-controversy-as-it-bans-jewish-flags/


Which of course kind of flies in the face of excluding jewish symbols
 
That's a completely different statement than "a minority person can't be bigoted". It's a debate about institutional racism and power balance. There has never once been a push on GAF that a minority person can't be prejudice or bigoted.

The transposition of the term "racist" as signifying ONLY systemic racism is silly, though.
 

squidyj

Member
also I tried to present both sides of this issue in the OP without just quoting the entire article

I don't know what further context is needed to be honest

"a wider bridge, which supports lgbt people in israel"

You really think that's all the context that is required on the nature of this organization in the OP?
 
Important distinction:

The Dyke March takes place one day ahead of the city's official Pride March.

The official Pride Parade had an entire section for synagogues and there were plenty of Star of David flags.
 
We have to decide whether or not to ban any group that isn't specifically an LGBT group or just allow groups that are allies that we may disagree with.
 

Raven117

Member
There actually have been threads where people have said that PoC can't be racist because in order to be racist, you have to be able to use existing power structures to oppress who you're being racist against.

Although I would say using someone's identity to ban them from associating with another identity counts as using an existing power structure to oppress someone, in this case.

Gawd, the first sentence of this (not saying you) just defies all logic.

Can a person of color BE racist? Of course. Can the person who is potentially a racist that is a PoC or other minority group use existing power structures to effectuate said racist beliefs? No, probably not. But thats just being an "effective" racist/bigot....Doesn't mean an individual can't be one.

Good lord...

As for this topic...That's truly sad.
 

phanphare

Banned
"a wider bridge, which supports lgbt people in israel"

You really think that's all the context that is required on the nature of this organization in the OP?

yes, given the rest of the OP

it gives the view from both sides, with the Dyke March's issues delving into that aspect

The organizers later hit back, saying Israel hides behind LGBT-rights.

In a social media post, the Dyke March said: "This decision was made after [the expelled marchers] repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Dyke March Collective members."
 
This. Unless they we're actively advocating that shit then there was no reason to ban them.

Uh, nah, if I was organizing an event and Neo Nazis wanted to be a part of my parade, I don't care if they are actively promoting anti-semitism at that event -- them being there would be me condoning their main message as a group.
 

Beartruck

Member
This is especially stupid considering how similiar Chicago and Israel's flags are (both white flags with horizontal blue stripes and a six sided star in the middle).
 
Yeah this is absolutely stupid for quite a few reasons:

1) The Star of David doesn't just represent Israel. It also represents Judaism

2) Even putting things in just the Israeli terms, the issue isn't ALL of Israel. The issue is the right-wing leadership in Israel, particularly Netanyahu.

3) A Pride Parade doesn't strike me as the right time to protest Israel considering that they actually have been decent on LGBTQ issues.
 

azyless

Member
Yes, it's seems like a normal pride parade, just didn't see anything that makes it look like "anything but dykes" either
They've made several social media posts about butch lesbian having make privilege and having to take a look at their own toxic masculinity, while appropriating a lesbian term. I don't know what more you need.
 
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