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[Raide]

Maybe a MH vet knows this but does the series have a threat focus when multiple players for ghtnone monster?

Wondering if it is a staple of the series or if it something MH5/World will push?

 

[JP_]

Conversely, nothing shown is "advanced AI" past buzz words, it all looks scripted conditionals that have evolved past what was already in 4/X but nothing more than iterative evolution on basic scripting.

This strawman is silly -- I don't see anybody suggesting the monster behaviors are some kind of breathing edge advancement in AI research.

The quote is "It lets us enhance the AI behaviours and use that extra computational power to make the actual interaction between all the monsters, creatures and hunters more believable than ever in terms of feeling alive."

Things like the jagras in the above gifs do take more computational power when each actor needs to be ware of its position relative to others, for example. And in isolation, sure, it's not something that would need a super beefy machine -- but when you combine the AI improvements with all the other improvements (animation smoothness and increased joint numbers, improved visuals, etc), remove loading screens, then you do need the horsepower.

TBH, using trash mob raptor AI as a selling point is a dubious point to have in your favor, on account of no one giving a crap about trash mob raptors outside of making basic equipment. They're nice for background decoration, especially when a crowd gathers as you battle it out with something worth your time, but if the best thing that can be said about them is that they can be accidental cheerleaders, then I don't know.

I'm actually far more impressed with the density of microforms in the footage we've seen like small lizards and bugs scattering across trees, fields and rocks, because that gives a lot more personality to the environment than this year's rank 1 key quest fodder.

It seems like Jagras might play a more prominent role in fights against a Great Jagra, when compared to past games. In examples like that, small monsters could play a more prominent role than they had in the past because they could be a significant part of the large monster's attack routine.

And afaik they haven't talked about it, but this might be the first time that small monsters actually sync across multiplayer.

 

[Toxi]

if you don't think there is a massive AI improvement in what they've shown in MHWorld you're blind or full of shit.

Monster infighting before was basically 'they might accidentally hit each other'

This is one of the things that has me excited for Worlds. Double monster battles before were basically just the monsters ganging up on you as you try to separate them (or in the arena, try to keep one in front of the other). It wasn't fun, it wasn't something the mechanics of the game handled well. By having them fight and presumably not just stay in the same room working together to murder you, the game won't have those bullshit moments.

 

[Akainu]

People issues with monster interactions is weird because I think every opening to these games has constantly played with the idea now they are actually doing it.

 

[Vena]

Thats never stopped us from being excited about 3rd and 4th gen before

Why is 5th gen the time to be complaining that they couldnt hit some bizarre undefined standard for the AI?

I dont get the criticism here. Is it an improvement over 4th gen? At least based on what has been shown so far it certainly seems to be

Because no one gave a shit about lauding Jaggie AI as some "advanced AI" jargon or even talking about AI for the most part.

 

[lyrick]

From what we've seen so far, yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.

However, when you compare this to the last 13 years of Monster Hunter AI, it does easily fit the bill of "advanced AI" simply because there was barely any semblance of AI to begin with. lol

The AI improved significantly from Gen 2 to Gen 3 (seriously compare MonHun 2 _preys to jaggis). I'm not so sure as much happened during Gen 4 (possibly some more exhaustion script changes? maybe?)

The AI should move forward just as it has in the past, I'm just seeing anything that actually shows that yet.

 

[Toxi]

I'm actually far more impressed with the density of microforms in the footage we've seen like small lizards and bugs scattering across trees, fields and rocks, because that gives a lot more personality to the environment than this year's rank 1 key quest fodder.

I'm hoping the item bugs/frogs are well-placed enough that people will actually be using them in battles.

 

[Eolz]

It's not, but so far nothing (AI-wise) has been shown to start circle jerking over.

The game looks like the best Graphical leap for the series yet. Cool. The gameplay system tweaks and new move sets may be good, or they may not be. It's a wait and see thing.

Conversely, nothing shown is "advanced AI" past buzz words, it all looks scripted conditionals that have evolved past what was already in 4/X but nothing more than iterative evolution on basic scripting.

Same opinion.
Not saying this isn't good, just not the leap Capcom is saying so far. Hoping that it will change, there's still time to improve that.

And if it doesn't, still happy with classic MonHun AI.

 

[Kyoufu]

The AI improved significantly from Gen 2 to Gen 3 (seriously compare MonHun 2 _preys to jaggis). I'm not so sure as much happened during Gen 4 (possibly some more exhaustion script changes? maybe?)

The AI should move forward just as it has in the past, I'm just seeing anything that actually shows that yet.

The small monster AI hasn't changed from MH1 to MHX. Jaggis still bunny hop around and attack every now and then. That's it. That's all they do and that's all they've ever done. Large monsters haven't had much of an AI enhancement either.

I'm a big, big fan of MH but I can't defend the series in these areas. It has stood still in many aspects for years and years.

 

[JP_]

Because no one gave a shit about lauding Jaggie AI as some "advanced AI" jargon or even talking about AI for the most part.

I actually only brought it up as an aside when talking about large monster AI: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241963672&postcount=298

It got to this point because this lyrick guy tried to downplay it. Now you and others come in here and see gifs showing new stuff, claim there's no new stuff. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[spyroflame0487]

Maybe a MH vet knows this but does the series have a threat focus when multiple players for ghtnone monster?

Wondering if it is a staple of the series or if it something MH5/World will push?

Quite often on hunts, especially higher leveled missions there's usually a "DANGER" warning on the mission before you accept. On these missions, there's a chance that another monster can appear (quite often its usually everyone's favorite nightmare pickle, Deviljho, but sometimes it's simply a raptor monster like Jaggi, Gendrome, etc)

For those missions there's an option to fight them (besides getting the carves, having extra fun on a mission, you can sometimes get bonus rewards for hunting it) but its not required. In fact, you can throw dung bombs at it and ward off the monster for the entirety of the mission and you don't have to worry about it.

Usually if you have a good team with you, you might as well go after it and get the bonus items. The initial gameplay showing the frog monster seemed to indicate that they wanted you to learn about tracking the main monster, but also be aware that other monsters are in the area. It's fairly likely you could probably fight that other monster too, although with the short timeframe of the mission (it looked like it only lasted for 15-20 minutes compared to the usual 30-45) it's probably not a great idea.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

This is one of the things that has me excited for Worlds. Double monster battles before were basically just the monsters ganging up on you as you try to separate them (or in the arena, try to keep one in front of the other). It wasn't fun, it wasn't something the mechanics of the game handled well. By having them fight and presumably not just stay in the same room working together to murder you, the game won't have those bullshit moments.

I actually liked monsters teaming up to murder you. Felt like a test on how familiar you were with specific monsters as you often had to rely on other sound or other cues to tell what the other one was doing. I hope they still have that but more fleshed out like with what I mentioned about the Peco relationship.

 

[NormalFish]

I wasn't interested enough to play it on 3DS. Switch would have changed that, but of course Capcom had to be dicks.

Then play on Vita or PSP. Or on an Android device. Or an iOS device. Or stop whining.

if you don't think there is a massive AI improvement in what they've shown in MHWorld you're blind or full of shit.

Monster infighting before was basically 'they might accidentally hit each other'

We've seen two interactions between large monsters. 2. Both of which played out identically in every run through of the demo. That's not exactly enough evidence to show wide sweeping and substantial change to AI.

snip

that's not what he's asking. He's asking if there's a threat system as found in MMOs for the monsters to determine which hunter it focuses. The answer is kinda, but it doesn't really have practical implications.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Then play on Vita or PSP. Or on an Android device. Or an iOS device. Or stop whining.

We've seen two interactions between large monsters. 2. Both of which played out identically in every run through of the demo. That's not exactly enough evidence to show wide sweeping and substantial change to AI.

Not always

The leaked demo footage shows Anjanath getting to jump attacks against the Rathalos so its not always so strictly scripted everytime

I suppose we will have to wait and see just how far they are gonna go with the AI in the game but geez its not going to be any worse than the previous games

Im not sure what supposed to be accomplished here outside of feeling like the devs somehow oversold it

From what I can tell they seem to be spending most of their time convincing people this is still an MH game

 

[Ridley327]

The AI improved significantly from Gen 2 to Gen 3 (seriously compare MonHun 2 _preys to jaggis). I'm not so sure as much happened during Gen 4 (possibly some more exhaustion script changes? maybe?)

The AI should move forward just as it has in the past, I'm just seeing anything that actually shows that yet.

I would have to say that the interaction between a Seltas drone and Seltas Queen was a huuuuuuge moment for their AI interactivity up until now. It made sure that they didn't fight like anything else in the series, and it's a great concept that their physiology bears out that really hadn't been explored yet.

That might actually be the biggest reason why I'm been so cold on the monsters thus far: they haven't shown me anything new-new yet. Show me something on the same level as Seltas/Seltas Queen and you will absolutely have my full attention.

 

[JP_]

Maybe a MH vet knows this but does the series have a threat focus when multiple players for ghtnone monster?

Wondering if it is a staple of the series or if it something MH5/World will push?

There's a mantle that attracts monsters. In past games, there's been the Sense skill that can make you less or more likely to be targeted.

Otherwise, it'll change targets -- not sure what the system behind it is or if it's basically random.

 

[Toxi]

I actually liked monsters teaming up to murder you. Felt like a test on how familiar you were with specific monsters as you often had to rely on other sound or other cues to tell what the other one was doing. I hope they still have that but more fleshed out like with what I mentioned about the Peco relationship.

It really didn't work. With monsters like Peco, it was okay. Two Brachydios in the same room though? Brachydios and Stygian Zinogre? You can't realistically fight those monsters together, only try to separate them. Their attacks will overlap in ways that will cause unavoidable deaths. I know from experience. Monster Hunter simply isn't designed well for battles against 2 monsters at the same time.

 

[Raide]

There's a mantle that attracts monsters. In past games, there's been the Sense skill that can make you less or more likely to be targeted.

Otherwise, it'll change targets -- not sure what the system behind it is or if it's basically random.

Ahh the mantle, that makes sense. I was wondering if it has a threat meter of sorts but the mantle could do the same job ultimately.

 

[DrROBschiz]

It really didn't work. With monsters like Peco, it was okay. Two Brachydios in the same room though? Brachydios and Stygian Zinogre? You can't realistically fight those monsters together. Their attacks will overlap in ways that cause unavoidable deaths. I know from experience.

They had monsters AI awareness before

but it was pretty limited. The Seltas Queen example above was a good one and Im trying to think of other ideas they played with

I know Rathalos and Rathian were setup to be aware of each other slightly. Im interested to see how they do it in MH5.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

You should have learned your lesson after the first MH4 trailer, which was even more scripted and non-representative.

@ you and everyone else mentioning the MH4 reveal trailer:

That was a concept trailer of a game that released 2 years later.

MHW trailer is actual gameplay footage and it's coming out in 9 months or less.

Spot the difference.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

@ you and everyone else mentioning the MH4 reveal trailer:

That was a concept trailer of a game that released 2 years later.

MHW trailer is actual gameplay footage and it's coming out in 9 months or less.

Spot the difference.

What is it exactly that concerns you Sammy?

 

[Toxi]

They had monsters AI awareness before

but it was pretty limited. The Seltas Queen example above was a good one and Im trying to think of other ideas they played with

I know Rathalos and Rathian were setup to be aware of each other slightly. Im interested to see how they do it in MH5.

Seltas Queen+Seltas is well designed. I'm more talking about the majority of 2 monster fights with combinations that aren't designed to be fought at the same time.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

It really didn't work. With monsters like Peco, it was okay. Two Brachydios in the same room though? Brachydios and Stygian Zinogre? You can't realistically fight those monsters together, only try to separate them. Their attacks will overlap in ways that will cause unavoidable deaths. I know from experience. Monster Hunter simply isn't designed well for battles against 2 monsters at the same time.

Ok it didn't always work out as pleasantly as I was describing. But I've definitely been able to handle two Tigrex, Khezu, or ocassionally a Los and an Ian at moments at the same time and it was fairly enjoyable. Other times I had to paintball both and book it hoping that they'd move to different zones. Still that doesn't mean they can't make it work. I don't necessarily want it to become a super common thing, but it can add a bit more spice to hunts like with the Seltas Queen/Peco.

I guess it's more that I just don't want it to swing in the opposite direction. I don't want free damage just because two monsters are in the same zone. Give me more types of interactions than that. Team work, fighting, fear, buffing/cheerleading, I want some variety.

 

[NormalFish]

Not always

The leaked demo footage shows Anjanath getting to jump attacks against the Rathalos so its not always so strictly scripted everytime

I suppose we will have to wait and see just how far they are gonna go with the AI in the game but geez its not going to be any worse than the previous games

Im not sure what supposed to be accomplished here outside of feeling like the devs somehow oversold it

From what I can tell they seem to be spending most of their time convincing people this is still an MH game

It's as people have said throughout this thread and previous ones. The trailer was shit. Capcom is not trustworthy. Their PR rings hollow without different gameplay demos.

Skepticism is warranted. It's ridiculous that every time this game is discussed on GAF and elsewhere, people feel the need to divide up in to camps and tell anyone who isn't convinced by capcom's showing with World that they're a fanboy or being stupid or a purist or hates change or whatever the fuck.

There's nothing that's meant to be accomplished here outside of discussion of the game and the statements given by capcom.

 

[dragonlife]

I would have to say that the interaction between a Seltas drone and Seltas Queen was a huuuuuuge moment for their AI interactivity up until now. It made sure that they didn't fight like anything else in the series, and it's a great concept that their physiology bears out that really hadn't been explored yet.

That might actually be the biggest reason why I'm been so cold on the monsters thus far: they haven't shown me anything new-new yet. Show me something on the same level as Seltas/Seltas Queen and you will absolutely have my full attention.

Yeah, Seltas/Seltas Queen's dynamic is really cool.

I hate/like how the Seltas really likes to fuck you over by helping the Seltas Queen. Like when he picks her up when she's in a trap... =/. Or when she basically says farewell to him and grabs him by her tail to try and slam you with him.

Such a great monster.

 

[Ridley327]

They had monsters AI awareness before

but it was pretty limited. The Seltas Queen example above was a good one and Im trying to think of other ideas they played with

I know Rathalos and Rathian were setup to be aware of each other slightly. Im interested to see how they do it in MH5.

I think that most monsters are programmed to leave shortly after Deviljho shows up, and Qurupeco can actually stick around if he calls another large monster just to be able to buff them with its attack up chant.

 

[Toxi]

@ you and everyone else mentioning the MH4 reveal trailer:

That was a concept trailer of a game that released 2 years later.

MHW trailer is actual gameplay footage and it's coming out in 9 months or less.

Spot the difference.

There was the gameplay stream if you're still anxious about the reveal trailer. And the leaked gameplay/demo impressions.

Yeah, Seltas/Seltas Queen's dynamic is really cool.

I hate/like how the Seltas really likes to fuck you over by helping the Seltas Queen. Like when he picks her up when she's in a trap... =/. Or when she basically says farewell to him and grabs him by her tail to try and slam you with him.

Such a great monster.

The funny part is that she eats him afterwards.

 

[BadWolf]

@ you and everyone else mentioning the MH4 reveal trailer:

That was a concept trailer of a game that released 2 years later.

MHW trailer is actual gameplay footage and it's coming out in 9 months or less.

Spot the difference.

They showed a live demo to the press etc. at E3 (of which there was a leaked video) and then had a live online stream for everyone else a few days later.

What's the problem?

 

[Akainu]

We've seen two interactions between large monsters. 2. Both of which played out identically in every run through of the demo. That's not exactly enough evidence to show wide sweeping and substantial change to AI.

Here Anjanath is fighting back agianst Rathalos

 

[JP_]

@ you and everyone else mentioning the MH4 reveal trailer:

That was a concept trailer of a game that released 2 years later.

MHW trailer is actual gameplay footage and it's coming out in 9 months or less.

Spot the difference.

Why are you acting like that reveal trailer is all we've seen? We have multiple videos of a full hunt.

I've already given thoughts as to why I think their first trailers are like that:

To me it just seems like a rigid media strategy. Seemed very similar to what they did with MH4.

Their first trailer tries to be more cinematic. It may use gameplay, but the goal is to sell the essence of Monster Hunter to people that don't already play the games (specifically, to people that don't already understand monster hunter mechanics). Without understanding how monhun actually plays, regular gameplay can just look like a regular action game -- people generally don't pay so much attention to video that they'd be able to understand how the combat is different than other games -- they just see monsters attacking and swords swinging. So instead, they sell the fantasy of monster hunter -- they try to convey what we feel while we play, but through video -- and that's why they sort of tell a story with the trailer.

It's probably a safe bet that even if monhun fans are bleh on the original trailer, they'll still get back on board when they see the classic gameplay they already know they love -- it'll make them forget about the first trailer (see MH4). But in terms of attracting new fans that don't already play, this is kind of a unique opportunity.

 

[DrROBschiz]

It's as people have said throughout this thread and previous ones. The trailer was shit. Capcom is not trustworthy. Their PR rings hollow without different gameplay demos.

Skepticism is warranted. It's ridiculous that every time this game is discussed on GAF and elsewhere, people feel the need to divide up in to camps and tell anyone who isn't convinced by capcom's showing with World that they're a fanboy or being stupid or a purist or hates change or whatever the fuck.

There's nothing that's meant to be accomplished here outside of discussion of the game and the statements given by capcom.

The PR was them answering the majority of burning questions

They showed the full E3 demo recently

Its fine if you aren't convinced but acknowledge the explicit evidence that exists

 

[NormalFish]

https://youtu.be/pIYLYT7ssIE?t=12m50s

Yeah, and there's the one between yellow frog lizard thing and pink dinosaur. That's 2.

The PR was them answering the majority of burning questions

They showed the full E3 demo recently

Its fine if you aren't convinced but acknowledge the explicit evidence that exists

No one is not acknowledging the existence of those things. I just don't find it very compelling evidence of quality. Because it doesn't do a good job of showing quality. Once we see more gameplay footage, see different monsters, proper weapon demos from players who aren't playing with 1 hand, hear more details about the mechanics that play in to monster interactions, etc. then I will adjust my position appropriately. My point is that your insistence that people who arne't convinced aren't acknowledging evidence is rhetorical bullshit. No one's doing that. Stop saying that.

 

[Ridley327]

The funny part is that she eats him afterwards.

In the end, insect biology is insect biology!

Seriously, give me more bugs to kill. Nerscylla and the Seltas duo are top tier in my book, but I want more.

 

[lyrick]

The small monster AI hasn't changed from MH1 to MHX. Jaggis still bunny hop around and attack every now and then. That's it. That's all they do and that's all they've ever done. Large monsters haven't had much of an AI enhancement either.

I'm a big, big fan of MH but I can't defend the series in these areas. It has stood still in many aspects for years and years.

This isn't true, there was actually some consideration put into Gen 3 AI, especially around how and when the pack attacks and how they behave when a large monster is is the zone, compared to Gen 2 when they basically just attacked until either you or they died.

I don't remember when the Monster Stamina (fatigue) system was introduced, I think it was another Gen 3 addition, but that was also a decent AI addition (a whole new AI path) since the original that only affects Large Monsters.

either way, shit has changed significantly in the series since MH1.

 

[JP_]

Yeah, and there's the one between yellow frog lizard thing and pink dinosaur. That's 2.

...his point was that interaction was different than the japanese livestream demo. Same monsters.

We've seen two interactions between large monsters. 2. Both of which played out identically in every run through of the demo. That's not exactly enough evidence to show wide sweeping and substantial change to AI.

This is bullshit. It's really pathetic, the lengths at which the haters go to downplay MHW.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

In the end, insect biology is insect biology!

Seriously, give me more bugs to kill. Nerscylla and the Seltas duo are top tier in my book, but I want more.

I love me some insects/arachnids so I'm with you on that.

 

[NormalFish]

...his point was that interaction was different than the japanese livestream demo. Same monsters. Proving your "same every time" bullshit wrong.

It happened in identical place at identical time, and had similar consequences of los being in the same zones as purple dinosaur and the dam breaking and whatever else. The differences aren't very substantial.

 

[Toxi]

In the end, insect biology is insect biology!

Seriously, give me more bugs to kill. Nerscylla and the Seltas duo are top tier in my book, but I want more.

The difference between female and male Seltas reminds me of the trilobite beetle.

I totally want more arthropod monsters. I love how the final boss of XX ended up being a Neopteran.

 

[Akainu]

Am I crazy? I thought the trailer was fine.

 

[JP_]

It happened in identical place at identical time, and had similar consequences of los being in the same zones as purple dinosaur and the dam breaking and whatever else. The differences aren't very substantial.

Quit your bullshitting dude. In one, the Anjanath fights back and the monsters broke the dam and all three get swept away by the water. In the other, the Rathalos picks it up and the Anjanath runs away and the dam was broke by the player's barrel bomb.

It's the same mission being played similarly, so it's no surprise they find the rath in the same area. That demo was meant to be shown to people once. Even so, people at e3 talked about it playing out very differently when they saw it multiple times.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Am I crazy? I thought the trailer was fine.

Me too

I can see how its lack of combat focus threw people off but its not like it took long to see the real game in action

The leaked demo footage dropped fast and the full demo a week later

There is a lot more to see and a fully playable floor demo in August at Gamescom

 

[NormalFish]

Quit your bullshitting dude. In one, the Anjanath fights back and the monsters broke the dam and all three get swept away by the water. In the other, the Rathalos picks it up and the Anjanath runs away. The dam was broke by the player's barrel bomb in the other.

It's the same mission being played similarly, so it's no surprise they find the rath in the same area.

I hadn't noticed this, my bad, then. Regardless, I don't think one mission is enough to say that the AI is substantially better. Even if they played out somewhat differently, we don't know the breadth of the potential differences. If those aspects are essentially set pieces, and it only really plays out 5 ways, then that's not very interesting. If they're as organic as they want us to think and they play out hundreds or thousands of different ways, then that's something to be excited about. But we don't know that yet. So lets wait.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I hadn't noticed this, my bad, then. Regardless, I don't think one mission is enough to say that the AI is substantially better. Even if they played out somewhat differently, we don't know the breadth of the potential differences. If those aspects are essentially set pieces, and it only really plays out 5 ways, then that's not very interesting. If they're as organic as they want us to think and they play out hundreds or thousands of different ways, then that's something to be excited about. But we don't know that yet. So lets wait.

Lets not get crazy

This is still monster hunter

I expect upgrades from Gen 5 and thats what Im seeing here but yes we need to see much more

 

[Sammy Samusu]

I have watched the gameplay footage both leaked and official. I worded my post wrong.

What I don't like:

Damage numbers
Running around chasing the monster
The green light bug shit
The lack of strategy during the fight
How the fight played the same in both videos AND written previews
The worry about making the game more appealing to Western market
The worry about cinematics
It being exclusively in console format
Uninspiring monsters design so far
Dragon's Dogma reskin and let's climb the monster
Horizon reskin let's hide in bushes
Terrible AI for stealth sequences

What I like:

Graphics
All weapons

 

[lyrick]

I hadn't noticed this, my bad, then. Regardless, I don't think one mission is enough to say that the AI is substantially better. Even if they played out somewhat differently, we don't know the breadth of the potential differences. If those aspects are essentially set pieces, and it only really plays out 5 ways, then that's not very interesting. If they're as organic as they want us to think and they play out hundreds or thousands of different ways, then that's something to be excited about. But we don't know that yet. So lets wait.

It really just seems like another extension of the the zone lan breaks in the Forrest, the Desert sand formations Blos gets stuck in, and the walls that Barroth opens at low health. Same shit another iterative take. Cool.

Being opened by the player is actually a nice QoL feature, maybe they'll let us climb up to those special starting points next.

 

[NormalFish]

It really just seems like another extension of the the zone lan breaks in the Forrest, the Desert sand formations Blos gets stuck in, and the walls that Barroth opens at low health. Same shit another iterative take. Cool.

Being opened by the player is actually a nice QoL feature, maybe they'll let us climb up to those special starting points next.

Yeah, I think that's a good bet. since you can bomb them open they might hide things in them now. Extra rock/honey/bug nodes or whatever.

 

[Neonep]

Capcom will find a way to fuck this up, give it some more time.

 

[Raet]

I wonder how this will do in the west. I'm sure GAF will love it, but what about typical western gamers? Are they really interested in MH?

 

[antibolo]

Then play on Vita or PSP. Or on an Android device. Or an iOS device. Or stop whining.

No. Fuck Capcom, and fuck you.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

Shhdhshd the anger 👰

I love MH threads.