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[carlsojo]

It's the little things that make it feel a world. Without those details, it feels artificial. Like, why hasn't Sam's dad found him? It'd not show ruining but it also doesn't make sense.

Stan the Man took everyone with him, and all the supplies. He wasn't coming back. As for squatters, common folk aren't going to go claim Dragonstone. There's nothing to eat.

Lannisters, Tyrells, and Dornish were all too preoccupied with murdering each other to try to man an island castle.

Like this isn't a giant leap in logic that the castle is abandoned.

Sam's dad will come for him but I mean come on they can only fit so many things into one episode. And Sam has only been there for one episode!

 

[fantomena]

Jon made it clear since the speech he did to the wildings in Hardhome that even enemies need to cooperate to fight the WW. All houses need to band together with their armies and even then it might not be enough.

The WW is the treat that has to unite all of Westeros, even the really shitty people.

 

[LastGamer84]

He's leveraging his experiences against the Night King against the actions of men. He's following the thought process that once the WWs get south, the differences between houses will be pretty much dropped. (Or should be)

This. The whole show series has been building up to the fact that the political games are utterly pointless in the face of an enemy who just wants to kill everyone.

The game is going to get everyone killed unless Jon gets his way. Sansa trying to apply politics to the situation shows she doesn't grasp exactly how screwed everyone is with winter in full swing.

Anyone trying to play games, Little Finger, Cersi, etc is going to get dead real fast these next two seasons. Mark my words.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Jon is supposed to unite the North but couldn't convince a single house to join him to fight Ramsay.

Sam's dad will come for him but I mean come on they can only fit so many things into one episode. And Sam has only been there for one episode!

Long montage + baby is now toddler means he's been there a long time.

 

[fantomena]

The game is going to get everyone killed unless Jon gets his way.

He's the last hero. And he entered the world on a promise.

 

[Cornballer]

 

[Branduil]

not them, their fathers did. the penalty for treason is death. but the traitors are dead already. he made that clear.

Jon is very obviously right here, even if there was not the looming threat of white walkers which should be the focus and not fighting each other.
do you think the lesson from being stabbed should have been " Oh I guess it was wrong to invite the wildlings here"?. Obviously not, it was the right decision and his killers were wrong and they are still wrong.
Jon is the only one to have the wisdom to see that there are more important things than punishment and petty rivalries between houses. That's why they even made him king. He is supposed to unite the north just like he united the wildlings and the watch. Giving in to some angry lynch mob now would be a mistake.

How is rightfully revoking the titles of oathbreaking houses(I mean legally, their claims are entirely contingent upon their oaths) "giving in to some angry lynch mob"? I mean you make it sound like people are mad at the those houses for some irrational reason, and not because they betrayed their king for an insane rapist sociopathic monster and helped to murder their Lord's son.

 

[demosthenes]

God damn if they don't hook up.

 

[Faddy]

Let's be honest it would have been completely brilliant if Dany had arrived at Dragonstone and Saladhor Saan was sitting on the throne.

"I'm here to fuck the Queen"

 

[Moff]

How is rightfully revoking the titles of oathbreaking houses(I mean legally, their claims are entirely contingent upon their oaths) "giving in to some angry lynch mob"? I mean you make it sound like people are mad at the those houses for some irrational reason, and not because they betrayed their king for an insane rapist sociopathic monster and helped to murder their Lord's son.

it is irrational if the traitors are dead already

 

[Cornballer]

Reviews and discussion:
- Onion A|V Club
- Sepinwall
- Rolling Stone
- Van Der Werff for Vox
- The Ringer
- Esquire
- Washington Post
- Joanna Robinson at Vanity Fair
- Matt Zoller Seitz
- Salon.com
- The Atlantic

Interviews:
- EW: Game of Thrones premiere actor on his sexy 'douchebag' pirate's plan (Are we going with Sexy Douchebag Pirate?)
- EW: Maisie Williams on that season premiere surprise
- Making Game of Thrones: The Cast Weighs in on the Season 7 Premiere

Other:
- Promo for next week's episode (please spoiler tag any discussion)
- The Ringer: Digest the ‘Game of Thrones’ Season Premiere With the First Episode of ‘Talk the Thrones’ (video discussion of the premiere)

 

[Anoregon]

I feel like the Jon scene was intended to not necessarily show that he's bad at politics, but that they aren't a pressing priority for him. Which makes sense given the onset of winter and his direct knowledge of the looming threat. It's at least somewhat understandable that he'd choose the quick way to placate any potential further karstark and umber fuckery so that everyone could get to the business at hand of not being annihilated by zombies and ice elves.

Once the rest of the north sees them firsthand, no one's going to give much thought to it either.

Edit: and yeah Tormund's hots for Brienne is legit the best thing this show has ever had.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Sansa trying to apply politics to the situation shows she doesn't grasp exactly how screwed everyone is with winter in full swing.

Except, her politics could very well help with the ultimate fight. Those are important castles in important positions for the fight against the WW, wouldn’t it be best for powerful, loyal houses to be there rather than weak houses that just lost a war and can’t be trusted to work together with the rest of the armies of the north if things start to go bad?

 

[mjc]

I feel like the Jon scene was intended to not necessarily show that he's bad at politics, but that they aren't a pressing priority for him. Which makes sense given the onset of winter and his direct knowledge of the looming threat. It's at least somewhat understandable that he'd choose the quick way to placate any potential further karstark and umber fuckery so that everyone could get to the business at hand of not being annihilated by zombies and ice elves.

Once the rest of the north sees them firsthand, no one's going to give much thought to it either.

It's a quick and dirty way to show how the two political mindsets meet before the storm. On one hand you have Jon and the Wildlings who've seen shit, and Sansa represents the rest of the seven kingdoms thinking that familial intrigue still takes priority. You're definitely right there.

 

[LastGamer84]

Let's be honest it would have been completely brilliant if Dany had arrived at Dragonstone and Saladhor Saan was sitting on the throne.

"I'm here to fuck the Queen"

If no one else gets a happy ending in this series, I hope he and Davos just say fuck it and go back to being pirate bros.

 

[Cornballer]

On that note, Cornballer (or anyone else), are you aware of anyone who writes or podcasts about the show on a technical level?

I haven't seen one, but surely there's someone doing it? There's been a few "gee, these are nicely framed shots" articles in the past.

 

[cubicle47b]

It's not exactly uncommon for houses to survive rebellions. Just look at the history of House Bolton even after they were subjugated. I think Jon handled the decision well considering the circumstances.

 

[Branduil]

it is irrational if the traitors are dead already

When they betrayed their king, they did it as the heads and representatives of their house. That's how it works. Not to mention, you know, all their servants and soldiers who went along with their betrayal. "I was just following orders" isn't a valid excuse.

Do you think if Texas suddenly seceded from the US, claimed they were part of Mexico now, and killed a bunch of US soldiers, that after the United States pacified them and arrested the leaders of the rebellion, they'd just say "well, we got the leaders, so let's just pretend this whole thing never happened."

 

[CopperPuppy]

This is gonna get some use.

 

[bengraven]

Oh my god this Jon versus Sansa thing is going to go on for fucking years isn't it?

 

[Branduil]

It's not exactly uncommon for houses to survive rebellions. Just look at the history of House Bolton even after they were subjugated. I think Jon handled the decision well considering the circumstances.

Yeah forgiving the rebellions of House Bolton and the Iron Islands sure worked out well for House Stark.

 

[Gigglepoo]

When they betrayed their king, they did it as the heads and representatives of their house.

Jon wasn't king, though. He was a resurrected Night's Watch deserting bastard. It makes more sense that people wouldn't join him than would make him king.

 

[mjc]

Yeah forgiving the rebellions of House Bolton and the Iron Islands sure worked out well for House Stark.

Different times, and Jon acknowledges those kind of problems.

 

[Moff]

When they betrayed their king, they did it as the heads and representatives of their house. That's how it works. Not to mention, you know, all their servants and soldiers who went along with their betrayal. "I was just following orders" isn't a valid excuse.

Do you think if Texas suddenly seceded from the US, claimed they were part of Mexico now, and killed a bunch of US soldiers, that after the United States pacified them and arrested the leaders of the rebellion, they'd just say "well, we got the leaders, so let's just pretend this whole thing never happened."

I am not sure what you are saying here, what do you think should happen to the Texans? Also, is the US in a war against an army of invincible monsters from the north in this case?

 

[cubicle47b]

Do you think if Texas suddenly seceded from the US, claimed they were part of Mexico now, and killed a bunch of US soldiers, that after the United States pacified them and arrested the leaders of the rebellion, they'd just say "well, we got the leaders, so let's just pretend this whole thing never happened."

I'd expect the US to handle it like they handled the end of the Civil War.

 

[moltonasty]

Oh my god this Jon versus Sansa thing is going to go on for fucking years isn't it?

Only 12 episodes left until the series finale so not that long..

 

[Jay Shadow]

I wasn't as offput by the Ed Sheeran stuff as some, just because I don't immediately recognize his face, but it felt like the sort of thing that would have been a deleted scene on the Blurays if there weren't a cameo in it.

The scene has a purpose in the episode. Her first scene with the Freys is Sansa's side of the debate where the whole house gets punished for the decision of the heads. This scene is Jon's side of the debate where these are individuals that shouldn't be judged based on their leaders.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Literally a day or two passed between last season and this.

For which characters? It’s obvious they play fast and loose with time. For Sam it’s been at least months. For Bran it’s been a day or two. The showrunners have to balance varying storylines where some characters are shown traveling and some have to deal with the major events that just happened but others have to accomplish tasks that usually take years, in a show that’s only 10 episodes per season. I mean, Sam has to become a Maester, his storyline is going to be massively sped up (or cut short) to make that happen.

 

[Branduil]

I am not sure what you are saying here, what do you think should happen to the Texans? Also, is the US in a war against an army of invincible monsters from the north in this case?

It's not a perfect metaphor due to the difference in systems of government, but you need to not just remove individuals in charge of the rebellion, but ensure that no rebellion will happen again. See: Reconstruction in the South after the American Civil War, which was abandoned early, resulting in fucked up consequences to this very day.

In the feudal world of Westeros, the right decision would be to completely deprive the Karstarks and Umbars of their claims and give them to loyal families.

 

[Felix Lighter]

I'm most curious about where they take the Sansa, Littlefinger plotline. I would personally like to Sansa, the once naive young girl, take down Littlefinger, possibly the best player in the game, by the end.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I'd expect the US to handle it like they handled the end of the Civil War.

And that went poorly, so this is not a point in your favor.

 

[Moff]

It's not a perfect metaphor due to the difference in systems of government, but you need to not just remove individuals in charge of the rebellion, but ensure that no rebellion will happen again. See: Reconstruction in the South after the American Civil War, which was abandoned early, resulting in fucked up consequences to this very day.

In the feudal world of Westeros, the right decision would be to completely deprive the Karstarks and Umbars of their claims and give them to loyal families.

As I said already, even in peace times it would be debatable if the sons of traitors (and their servands and sholdiers, according to you) should be punished for the treason of their leaders and fathers.

but whith what Jon has seen and knows is at the doorsetp, I think it is absolutely the right decision to shut this babbling up immediately and focus on the big threat.

 

[studyguy]

I hope Sansa is going for the long con with Baelish I guess, the post credits stuff made it seem like she's more vindictive than I would have expected her character to be, but then again Ramsey getting eaten by dogs, etc. So we'll see where the show takes her.

Gravedigger was a cool reference.
How long has Sam supposed to have been at the citadel, the kid is fucking massive.

 

[Iksenpets]

If no one else gets a happy ending in this series, I hope he and Davos just say fuck it and go back to being pirate bros.

Season 8 should introduce an elaborate plot line involving Salla assembling a crew to pull off the heist of the century. Then, in the last episode, someone wins the war and announces that they're going to sit their ass on that sweet throne they just won. We see them walk into the throne room and their face sinks. Then cut to Salla and his boys partying with the throne on the deck of his ship at sea as the final credits roll over them.

Edit: Also, all of Sallador's crew are cameo appearances by Lonely Island and I'm On A Boat plays with the credits.

 

[cubicle47b]

And that went poorly, so this is not a point in your favor.

Was there a way for it to not go poorly?

 

[jett]

So since this is the book thread, how much of this stuff are we thinking could be in the books? Some of it? None of it?

 

[Frost_Ace]

Decent premiere, the Hound scene was the only ome with some real emotion behind it. Not a fan of Arya's revenge porn and the subsequent Ed Sheeran scene. I really wonder if Euron is gonna get the Dragon horn now?

 

[Branduil]

So since this is the book thread, how much of this stuff are we thinking could be in the books? Some of it? None of it?

The poop and soup scene maybe.

 

[Anoregon]

I'm most curious about where they take the Sansa, Littlefinger plotline. I would personally like to Sansa, the once naive young girl, take down Littlefinger, possibly the best player in the game, by the end.

She is potentially one of his only weak spots, given that she herself is something he wants instead of just a tool to get what he wants.

Like, what was his overall motivation for bringing the Vale to save the North from Ramsay? Surely he can't expect much out of Jon. Was it just because Sansa asked, and he wants to ingratiate himself to her? Because that doesn't sound like our 5-steps ahead scheming Petyr. Does he expect to use Sansa as a puppet of sorts to rule the North? Because that doesn't seem likely either.

 

[Moff]

So since this is the book thread, how much of this stuff are we thinking could be in the books? Some of it? None of it?

sam in the citadel learning knowldege of the others: yes
dany in dragonstone planning/executing her invasion: yes
jon, sansa and littlefinger in winterfell dealing with northern houses and the others: yes
sandor joining the brotherhood: I'd say likely
arya killing the freys: possible

was there anything else in this episode?

 

[LastGamer84]

Season 8 should introduce an elaborate plot line involving Salla assembling a crew to pull off the heist of the century. Then, in the last episode, someone wins the war and announces that they're going to sit their ass on that sweet throne they just won. We see them walk into the throne room and their face sinks. Then cut to Salla and his boys partying with the throne on the deck of his ship at sea as the final credits roll over them.

Edit: Also, all of Sallador's crew are cameo appearances by Lonely Island and I'm On A Boat plays with the credits.

A better ending than we deserve lol.

 

[Anoregon]

A better ending than we deserve lol.

Sallador literally stealing the throne itself is the twist GRRM is not brave enough to write.

 

[Cornballer]

For all you superfans out there:

- Season 7 Episode 1 Clip: Arya and Ed Sheeran

 

[Dysun]

Master Assassin Arya really drives home the fact that I'm watching D&D writing

 

[CopperPuppy]

Was there a point to the Ed Sheeran scene other than to have a scene with Ed Sheeran in it?

Isn't McGregor cameo-ing this season too?

We Entourage now.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I love Tormund. What an amazing casting job.

 

[gspec]

Edmure is not a prisoner anymore in the traditional sense. His back as lord of Riverrun but unde the control of the lannisters and frey when Jaime convinced him to get the river run men to disobey the blackfish to lower the draw bridge. That was the deal Jaime made with edmure besides that killing his wife and son. The freys didn't want to do deal but Jaime convince them otherwise. Jaime did something similiar in the books with the blackfish.

 

[The Artisan]

I'm not joking, I walked in midscene when Sam is pouring out the poo and I for some reason thought he was making coffee for the meisters. Bleh

It was fucking disgusting.

Anyways, I know a lot of people call Sam & Gilly's arcs boring, but, also while I was thinking of the episode, I realized that they never really delve that deep on the life of a maester; or the making of one.

I guess maesters are the equivalent of PhDs or M.Ds in Westeros? So, they have to learn like...everything? Except other than plot device shit I don't really get why Sam is doing dogsbody work. It'd make more sense to see him in a classroom reading a stack of books; it would make more sense to see the maesters make him read shit and take tests and what not.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

Was there a point to the Ed Sheeran scene other than to have a scene with Ed Sheeran in it?

Nothing. He's a game of thrones nut, and been bugging them for years about guest starring.

 

[Ros8105]

Was there a point to the Ed Sheeran scene other than to have a scene with Ed Sheeran in it?

Humanizing the lannister soldiers?