Support NeoGAF

[CreepingFear]

Just finished this (because I'd heard a bunch about it and then SNL pushed it over the top for me for whatever reason, I wasn't doing anything else). It's really great.

I don't think that I've seen anything in any medium ever that had such a sublimely paced drip of information that would constantly reframe every line and every scene. As an episode of Black Mirror, it was actually a little distracting because I spent so much of the first... third, I would guess, trying to piece together what the tech hook was, but that's not actually an issue with the work itself, and it all came together so well as to be definitively irrelevant.

My real issue with the episode is the ending. We didn't get the tragedy of two lovers missing out on their chance to reconcile because of the dark cruelty of life and time even in a world where people run heaven, and then dealing with the eternal consequences in San Junipero and in death. But we didn't get a cathartic reconciliation either. We got a big old '???' and a lifeless cut to 'And they lived happily ever after', as if after all of her talk and characterization and literally her last spoken line, she arrived at death's doorstep and balked... except we didn't even get that moment, where she confronts the possibility of eternal darkness and takes the easy way out.

Maybe that's the point, that San Junipero is the gormless, lukewarm, bullshit way out, but even if that's the case, purposefully making the ending so unappealingly milquetoast would be a disservice to such an emotional roller coaster of an episode.

The whole tragic ending thing is more of a cliche, especially for LGBT characters. Why do they always have to be punished?

 

[Burt]

The whole tragic ending thing is more of a cliche, especially for LGBT characters. Why do they always have to be punished?

They don't always have to be punished. There's nothing wrong with a happy ending. But there should be connective tissue between the climax and the ending.

San Junipero's climax was an incredible scene that skewed tragic. They fight, we learn about Kelly's backstory, she drives off, crashes, and Yorkie is there to pick her back up. They hardly get the time to glance at each other before time runs out and Kelly disappears. We don't know what that glance meant - where it ranged on the scale of Kelly feeling angry and violated that Yorkie won't give her any space to Kelly forgiving a heartbroken Yorkie for overstepping boundaries. That's the tragic thing, that we don't know and can't say.

The subsequent scenes do nothing to alter the situation. Kelly gets sicker and weaker, but doesn't signal that anything is changed from when she sped off, and even seems resigned to death (as opposed to happy to see Yorkie again) when she says, "Well, time to get on with the rest of it" - or whatever her exact wording was.

Then we see her die, and she's driving off into the sunset in a Miata with Yorkie.

There was a moment of character and plot development there, a pivot point, that was completely excluded.

And it's not like they didn't have ways to do it. We never got the deep dive into Yorkie's pain the same way we did Kelly's, which would've made for a solid cathartic moment. We never got Kelly fearing death, or finally putting what her family would want her to do (be happy) over the grief and guilt of not being with them, or even just accepting that they were gone and it didn't matter, or whatever else it was out of the multitude of options that made Kelly renege on her commitment to follow in her husband's footsteps. We never got anything to suggest that the course that led to and through the climax ever had any reason to change.

What we got was a last two minutes that ran on a completely set of tracks than the ones that led up to them.

My issue isn't with "And they all lived happily ever after." My issue is the structure of the ending feeling like Romeo's standing over Juliet's comatose body in the crypt, poison in hand, and then we get a hard cut to "And they all lived happily ever after."

 

[Chiaroscuro]

They don't always have to be punished. There's nothing wrong with a happy ending. But there should be connective tissue between the climax and the ending.

San Junipero's climax was an incredible scene that skewed tragic. They fight, we learn about Kelly's backstory, she drives off, crashes, and Yorkie is there to pick her back up. They hardly get the time to glance at each other before time runs out and Kelly disappears. We don't know what that glance meant - where it ranged on the scale of Kelly feeling angry and violated that Yorkie won't give her any space to Kelly forgiving a heartbroken Yorkie for overstepping boundaries. That's the tragic thing, that we don't know and can't say.

The subsequent scenes do nothing to alter the situation. Kelly gets sicker and weaker, but doesn't signal that anything is changed from when she sped off, and even seems resigned to death (as opposed to happy to see Yorkie again) when she says, "Well, time to get on with the rest of it" - or whatever her exact wording was.

Then we see her die, and she's driving off into the sunset in a Miata with Yorkie.

There was a moment of character and plot development there, a pivot point, that was completely excluded.

And it's not like they didn't have ways to do it. We never got the deep dive into Yorkie's pain the same way we did Kelly's, which would've made for a solid cathartic moment. We never got Kelly fearing death, or finally putting what her family would want her to do (be happy) over the grief and guilt of not being with them, or even just accepting that they were gone and it didn't matter, or whatever else it was out of the multitude of options that made Kelly renege on her commitment to follow in her husband's footsteps. We never got anything to suggest that the course that led to and through the climax ever had any reason to change.

What we got was a last two minutes that ran on a completely set of tracks than the ones that led up to them.

My issue isn't with "And they all lived happily ever after." My issue is the structure of the ending feeling like Romeo's standing over Juliet's comatose body in the crypt, poison in hand, and then we get a hard cut to "And they all lived happily ever after."

Not exactly. While I agree that the ending is a little fragmented, it still ties to the story.

The fight was also a pivotal moment for Kelly. She has to confront her own believes and what she want to do, not only what the others expect her to do. In the fight, we came to know that she does not share his late husband beliefs, that she is just following his wishes by respect and love. She does not believe she will be reunited with him and their daughter at after life.


The end is she coming to peace with what she wants and what her husband wanted. She realized she could do both. She dies, she is buried with her husband and daughter (we can see their names in the tumbstone). But she is also back at San Junipero for living her new love. That is also a "Black Mirror" implication. People in San Junipero are only copies, a simulation. A copy from you is still you. But if you believe in after live and souls, her soul is free to reunite with her family.

 

[Burt]

Not exactly. While I agree that the ending is a little fragmented, it still ties to the story.

The fight was also a pivotal moment for Kelly. She has to confront her own believes and what she want to do, not only what the others expect her to do. In the fight, we came to know that she does not share his late husband beliefs, that she is just following his wishes by respect and love. She does not believe she will be reunited with him and their daughter at after life.


The end is she coming to peace with what she wants and what her husband wanted. She realized she could do both. She dies, she is buried with her husband and daughter (we can see their names in the tumbstone). But she is also back at San Junipero for living her new love. That is also a "Black Mirror" implication. People in San Junipero are only copies, a simulation. A copy from you is still you. But if you believe in after live and souls, her soul is free to reunite with her family.

Yeah, that works perfectly well as an interpretation, and I'm right there with you, but the episode still lacks the moment or process that illustrates it what precipitated that choice. We don't see her reconciling the difference between what she wanted and what her husband wanted. The denouement devoted more time to showing her increasing fragility than her inner struggle, and in the end, rather than working with or fixing that omission, they jump straight to showing us its results.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Yeah, that works perfectly well as an interpretation, and I'm right there with you, but the episode still lacks the moment or process that illustrates it what precipitated that choice. We don't see her reconciling the difference between what she wanted and what her husband wanted. The denouement devoted more time to showing her increasing fragility than her inner struggle, and in the end, rather than working with or fixing that omission, they jump straight to showing us its results.

I think that was intentional from the director, to not let the audience knows her decision thus creating tension for the episode. Her increasing fragility process is a parallel to the fragility of her previous decisions and the process to change them. However if that was the director intention, it failed cause most people will only see this disconnection of the ending.

 

[Bad_Boy]

the 5 star aziz SNL skit brought me back to this thread. lol

 

[gfxtwin]

It was beautiful. Even though it lost some narrative impact when I predicted in the first 10 minutes that what we were seeing was a virtual reality simulation, the emotional impact left me in tears.

 

[gamz]

Watched this last night and it floored me! I was in awe afterwards. You can tell Booker really loves the 80's and I smiled like a idiot throughout. Such a touching emotional love story.

 

[zoukka]

It was beautiful. Even though it lost some narrative impact when I predicted in the first 10 minutes that what we were seeing was a virtual reality simulation, the emotional impact left me in tears.

They didn't try to hide the reality of what's happening too much in the episode and it worked no matter how early you got it.

 

[gfxtwin]

They didn't try to hide the reality of what's happening too much in the episode and it worked no matter how early you got it.

I don't think I would've caught on if not for the conversation between them at the bar early in the episode. I just love being surprised in a TV show and BM does that so well (that episode three...holy shit) so I kinda expected and hoped for that even though I still ended up loving it.

 

[charliebear]

Just watched this episode again, not seen since it was released. Wow, such a different show this time round. Everything they say connects to the reveal. They speak like older people. Their reactions to things and conversations all make sense. It's a different experience all together.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I was extremely impressed with this episode as well. At the halfway point I was like "okay, where the hell is the story going." And then about 15 minutes later I was nodding my head thinking to myself "wow, this is really good."

 

[Frodo]

The only thing I wish had been different about the episode is its length. I wanted it to be longer. In fact, this should have been a fucking two-hour feature film released in theatres.

OP is banned and all, but this is so true.

It should have been a full length film. It is one of my favourite episode of any TV series ever.

Just watched this episode again, not seen since it was released. Wow, such a different show this time round. Everything they say connects to the reveal. They speak like older people. Their reactions to things and conversations all make sense. It's a different experience all together.

It gets better on a second viewing.

 

[charliebear]

Ah I meant this is my second viewing. Yeah I can't work this out. It's amazing the second time. You see the connections, the meaning, the true feelings. But also lost the wonder of where it was going. But could concentrate more on just how beautiful it is.

This is an amazing hour of television. And the soundtrack too. Ost and licensed. Wow

 

[hey_monkey]

Oh gosh, I don't know if I could watch it again yet. I just cried and cried.

 

[Blue Lou]

Does this interest people? The soundtrack is being released for the episode on vinyl and disc.

https://www.invada.co.uk/collections/all-products#

I saw San Junipero but it didn't really do anything for me. I've found the Netflix shows (series 3) disappointing.

 

[AuthenticM]

Does this interest people? The soundtrack is being released for the episode on vinyl and disc.

https://www.invada.co.uk/collections/all-products#

I saw San Junipero but it didn't really do anything for me. I've found the Netflix shows (series 3) disappointing.

holy fuck

I need to buy a player that reads vinyls.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[aBarreras]

i like it a lot for being the only black mirror episode with a happy ending

 

[Chiaroscuro]

i like it a lot for being the only black mirror episode with a happy ending

I liked it a lot, but it does not get far away from a BM end, since there are a lot of things to think about (see my previous posts).

 

[aBarreras]

I liked it a lot, but it does not get far away from a BM end, since there are a lot of things to think about (see my previous posts).

yeah, but at least it didnt end with the main character dead, or in jail, or with their brain destroyed,

 

[ResidentWeevil13]

yeah, but at least it didnt end with the main character dead, or in jail, or with their brain destroyed,

I honestly think Nosedive has the happiest ending, and that's the one where the character ends up in jail.

No black mirror episode is downright happy imo

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Just watched this episode again, not seen since it was released. Wow, such a different show this time round. Everything they say connects to the reveal. They speak like older people. Their reactions to things and conversations all make sense. It's a different experience all together.

Yeah, it's really enjoyable on a repeat viewing. I cried the first two times I watched the episode.

 

[ERotIC]

To this day I haven't watched the last two episodes of Black Mirror, because I know I'm not going to get a better finale than San Junipero.

 

[Shoeless]

This was a fantastic episode, and such a change from the expected emotional trauma of previous episodes. Happy to see it's been nominated for an Emmy as well in writing.

 

[JawzPause]

Completely agree with everything you said OP. I remember after the episode i just sat there for half an hour thinking about how this episode actually portrayed a realistic future scenario and how messed up the future will be

 

[ERotIC]

Anyway, a rough ranking of the episodes (Best to worst):


Fifteen Million Merits
San Junipero
The Entire History of You
Shut up and Dance
White Christmas
Be Right Back
Nosedive
White Bear
The Waldo Moment
Playtest
The National Anthem

 

[psyfi]

Its only major failure was not including Together Again by Janet Jackson on its excellent soundtrack.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

To this day I haven't watched the last two episodes of Black Mirror, because I know I'm not going to get a better finale than San Junipero.

that's smart, because those are the two worst eps in the season

 

[Joeku]

To this day I haven't watched the last two episodes of Black Mirror, because I know I'm not going to get a better finale than San Junipero.

There's something to be said for having your thoroughly depressing work end with a bit of joy.

Edit: Please god let that vinyl come to North America.

 

[Jzero]

Does this interest people? The soundtrack is being released for the episode on vinyl and disc.

https://www.invada.co.uk/collections/all-products#

I saw San Junipero but it didn't really do anything for me. I've found the Netflix shows (series 3) disappointing.

That looks amazing but i'm not paying international shipping.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

A lot of my friends wouldn't shut up about this episode when I started Black Mirror.

Loved it, but "The Entire History of You">>>>>>>

 

[Misha]

Love it and have been trying to show it to my friends for awhile.
Not enough lesbian stories out there.

 

[gamz]

Masterpiece.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Easily the best episode in BM and honestly some of the best shit on TV. Gugu acted her ass off and did such an amazing job. She's so underrated T_T

Masterpiece.

Can't tell if you said this because of Gugu's movie Beyond the Lights or not lol.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

To this day I haven't watched the last two episodes of Black Mirror, because I know I'm not going to get a better finale than San Junipero.

I watched the episode last (on a recommendation), which is good, because I also thought it towered above the rest, and was a perfect way to go out on.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

The reason I think it’s an unambiguous

Spoiler

happy ending is that while you are living you can go to SJ, and when you unplug you have memories of the place. That makes it real. Whether you’re a clone or not is kinda irrelevant because if you are a clone and die, you die not knowing that at all.

Also,

Spoiler

who would sign up for it? I absolutely would.

 

[aBarreras]

I honestly think Nosedive has the happiest ending, and that's the one where the character ends up in jail.

No black mirror episode is downright happy imo

the thing is i half expected the "server" room where all the chips are being stored to malfunction or something, because that's black mirror schtick.

allso i think white bear is kinda of a happy ending? since the main character was a bad person

 

[Paltheos]

I'm not as big a fan of this episode of most of you. I think it takes too long to really warm up to me. There is one scene in the episode though that stands out to me, not just as one of the strongest scenes in Black Mirror but as one of the best performances I've ever seen:

Kelly's speech to Yorkie about how she has no clue what it means to have lived a full life with another and to have lost so much. It struck me as especially sincere. Very impressive considering how young the actress is. It sounded like something she'd personally experienced.

 

[hey_monkey]

Also,

Spoiler

who would sign up for it? I absolutely would.

I would. I would like ten more lifetimes of forever with my husband.

 

[mantidor]

Its only major failure was not including Together Again by Janet Jackson on its excellent soundtrack.

Brooker talked about how he couldn't get the rights for all the songs he wanted, who knows if this one was among them.

 

[shira]

Dat tweeest

Wasn't expecting anything, great ep

 

[Montresor]

Spoiler

I don't think the show has any ambiguity there: it's the person. The ending of the episode seems to be clear to me: San Junipero is, quite literally, heaven on earth. People's bodies die, and they pass over to San Junipero. That they don't because a copy of them took their place would cast a dark shadow over the entire story that would be incongruent with the tone and joie-de-vivre imbued in the episode.

Absofuckinglutely

I completely disagree here; how is it "the person"?

It's a copy of a person in my opinion. Those aren't Yorkie/Kelly. Those are copies of Yorkie/Kelly. That doesn't mean those copies can't become hurt, depressed, think and feel for themselves, be happy, etc... To give you an idea of how I feel, I'm firmly of the belief that the Greta Cookie (from White Christmas) should have the same rights as a person and shouldn't be subjected to slavery. So yes, the Yorkie/Kelly that have passed on into San Junipero are complex individuals but they aren't the real Yorkie/Kelly - they are copies.

 

[XOMTOR]

I completely disagree here; how is it "the person"?

It's a copy of a person in my opinion. Those aren't Yorkie/Kelly. Those are copies of Yorkie/Kelly. That doesn't mean those copies can't become hurt, depressed, think and feel for themselves, be happy, etc... To give you an idea of how I feel, I'm firmly of the belief that the Greta Cookie (from White Christmas) should have the same rights as a person and shouldn't be subjected to slavery. So yes, the Yorkie/Kelly that have passed on into San Junipero are complex individuals but they aren't the real Yorkie/Kelly - they are copies.

The physical bodies of Kelly and Yorkie expired, the information stored in their brains digitized and uploaded to a server. The upload cannot take place until time of death. At this point, does the concept of original or copy really matter?

 

[BertramCooper]

The fact that a living person can visit San Junipero suggests that a person's consciousness can indeed be directly transmitted to San Junipero, and therefore, one could theorize that the person's consciousness is directly transferred there upon death and not simply copied.

But I think it's ambiguous enough for speculation, which certainly suits Black Mirror.

 

[Elandyll]

I completely disagree here; how is it "the person"?

It's a copy of a person in my opinion. Those aren't Yorkie/Kelly. Those are copies of Yorkie/Kelly. That doesn't mean those copies can't become hurt, depressed, think and feel for themselves, be happy, etc... To give you an idea of how I feel, I'm firmly of the belief that the Greta Cookie (from White Christmas) should have the same rights as a person and shouldn't be subjected to slavery. So yes, the Yorkie/Kelly that have passed on into San Junipero are complex individuals but they aren't the real Yorkie/Kelly - they are copies.

Actually the episode makes it clear and goes out of its way to show it's not copies, as you have a "trial" period during which you connect during limited periods of time.
If it was a copy, the memories acquired during a session would be separate, but the physical person keeps the memories.

It's the actual consciousness that's being transfered, and is more in line with the actual message of the episode: there is a choice to make, you don't get to have your cake (passing to the "great beyond" and eat it too (having a copy of you continuing in San Junipero, for... reasons.)

This is also why the ep is actually (in my view) much more bleak and dark than people give it credit for.
For what could be just a fling and the promise of (temporary) instant gratification with a -guaranty- to know where you are going, Kelly renounces her "true love" as she herself described it and the "possibility" of being reunited with him and their child... All that for the whole but guaranteed certainty that eventually they both will end up as emotionless husks of themselves trapped in a parody version of a forever 1980.

The reality of it, in my opinion, is that San Junipero is Limbo, and is the way to Hell (that club we briefly see) which will happen eventually.
But at least they will have some fun for a while on their way there

"Hell is repetition"

 

[BertramCooper]

The physical bodies of Kelly and Yorkie expired, the information stored in their brains digitized and uploaded to a server. The upload cannot take place until time of death. At this point, does the concept of original or copy really matter?

I very much think it does.

See: The Prestige

 

[CloudWolf]

So in the Christmas special, the wife of the guy in the cabin (not John Hamm the other one) sings a song in a bar during Karaoke.

It's the same song that the girl sings during her audition in 15 million merits. She also says that it's a very old song and that the women in her family had passed it down for generations.

Are these two episodes in the same universe with 15 million merits being far into the future?

The Christmas Special has tons of references to the first two seasons, they're confirmed to just be easter eggs though.

Now, the White Bear mention in Hated in the Nation is a little more specific, but again probably just a fun little reference.

Does this interest people? The soundtrack is being released for the episode on vinyl and disc.

https://www.invada.co.uk/collections/all-products#

I saw San Junipero but it didn't really do anything for me. I've found the Netflix shows (series 3) disappointing.

Hah nice, they're actually using that art? Good to see that guy making it. I've got one of the artwork he made from White Chtistmas on my wall. Great stuff.

 

[Kai Dracon]

For the purpose of the episode's themes I agree it wasn't supposed to be about copies. If one wants you can imagine the technology uses the "ship of thesus" method, where the subject's brain functions are transferred to a digital substrate a bit at a time instead of being read and copied.

IMO the visuals suggest it's a digital brain replacement with the discreet modules each dedicated to a single consciousness. The transferred minds aren't just programs stored on a server - a particular technology is required and it's one module for one mind.

Otherwise the choice wouldn't have any weight for religious persons and the story would have to deal with angst over people being unable to "really" escape death with the mind transfer.

 

[XOMTOR]

I very much think it does.

See: The Prestige

Why? (Haven't watched The Prestige)

The "original" vessel which housed the information about that "person" no longer exists. How do concepts of original and copy make any difference? I digitized my family videos from VHS a few years ago and tossed the originals. The information was preserved as transparently as possible to my eyes and ears. Why should I care which ones are the originals and which are the copies?

 

[BertramCooper]

Why? (Haven't watched The Prestige)

The "original" vessel which housed the information about that "person" no longer exists. How do concepts of original and copy make any difference? I digitized my family videos from VHS a few years ago and tossed the originals. The information was preserved as transparently as possible to my eyes and ears. Why should I care which ones are the originals and which are the copies?

Because in this scenario, you're not avoiding the termination of a consciousness.

If my consciousness is copied upon my death and uploaded to a glorious paradise in the cloud, I'm not avoiding death at all. A copy of me is in paradise for eternity while I'm very much dead.