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San Junipero (Black Mirror S03E04) might be my favorite episode of TV ever

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mrkgoo

Member
It's pretty good but its subtext compared to the rest of the season (bar the Resident Evil-ish one) is pretty thin.

I will say "Heaven Is A Place On Earth" made for one of the most beautiful moments of the series. Such perfect use of a song.

Something I didn't realise until a rewatch.... the episode actually opens with this song.

In regards to
whether it's a copy or actually them, I assume it's them, but really even if it were a copy, what is the functional difference? Like let's imagine someone invents teleportation but it destroys you and copies you at the other end exactly. You wouldn't even know. I know the idea is terrifying, but if a copy is exact, there's no way of telling. Like what if the teleportation is portrayed as that and the inventors don't even know? What if you right now die every time you sleep and your brain just remains your memories for the next day? It's one of those philosophical thoughts best not thought about. Lol
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I agree about Nosedive, but I think Shut Up and Dance is my least favourite episode. It was a decent story well told (they all are), but it didn't feel that different to thrillers I've already seen - same issue I had with Nosedive. I prefer the episodes that show me something unlike anything I've seen before. Season 2 was the strongest for me overall for this reason, although I'd lump The Waldo Moment in with the less creative episodes.

Season 1 is the most consistent, season 2 (including the holiday special) is the most creative, and season 3 is the most safe. I loved season 3, but it felt a bit less acerbic than the other two.
I don't know if I like any season as a whole, but rather episodes within each season. Of course, since each of the previous seasons is only 3 episodes, it's a bit easier to be picky. lol

As for Shut up and Dance, I just like how it took swatting to the next logical extreme. Strangely, it's the most grounded of the six episodes for me because
I could see kids on 4chan tracking down pedos and making them fight each other to the death.

1. It seemed clear many people couldn't accept a virtual world as a legitimate way of living or as an afterlife, which would be a big reason a lot of people hadn't just demanded to go virtual.
For me this breaks because of the very simple reason that
euthanasia is perfectly legal and socially accepted in this society. Both characters choose to die or "commit suicide" if you will. The religious question just seems perfunctory, a way to add conflict at the last moment because the episode is already way too "happy" as it is.
 

qcf x2

Member
Season 1 is the most consistent, season 2 (including the holiday special) is the most creative, and season 3 is the most safe. I loved season 3, but it felt a bit less acerbic than the other two.

I can't quite agree. There was nothing safe about San Junipero OR Hated in the Nation, as neither of them felt (at all) like Black Mirror episodes. I do feel S3 was the most inconsistent* but overall it was still really good. Nosedive was my least favorite episode but it was still very watchable (mostly due to aesthetics for me).

*Actually, I think it's just the ordering that makes me feel that way. Men Against Fire would've probably had a much stronger impact as ep 1 than trying to follow up San Junipero.
 

Trey

Member
Absolutely not, there are some versions of the world like in 15 Million Marks that are pretty out there. Best to look at each episode as a complete story to itself.

there are cross references between episodes. The argument could be made it's all a shared universe, but it's probably best to think of each episode as a self contained tale.
 

someday

Banned
The only thing that bugged me about the episode, and this is nitpicky..

Is how completely awful she was at Bubble Bobble.

Granted she was distracted, but she kills 2 of the 3 enemies on stage 1.. and then dies.

It's like someone dying from the first turtle on Super Mario.
She probably couldn't concentrate with that guy talking to her the whole time.

I watched the episode and loved it. I'll start the series from the beginning later but that episode was fascinating. I took it as a bittersweet ending though. One one hand, I love that Kelly and Yorkie are together but I saw things a little differently after Kelly talked about the 39 years she spent with her husband and how Yorkie had no idea what that meant. It's nice to see a lesbian couple get a "happy" ending (considering they're both technically dead), but I did understand why it wasn't an easy decision for Kelly to make.

Also, I loved Yorkie's awkwardness at the beginning. "Make this easy for me" was a great line coming from her. Granted it probably would have pissed me off in a different context.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
For me this breaks because of the very simple reason that
euthanasia is perfectly legal and socially accepted in this society. Both characters choose to die or "commit suicide" if you will. The religious question just seems perfunctory, a way to add conflict at the last moment because the episode is already way too "happy" as it is.

Yeah,
the religious angle was probably a cliche thrown in as an easy and quick way to represent opposition. While the story was focused on the characters, a lot of ground could have been explored relating to how people are hung up on "what is real" which doesn't need to have anything to do with religion.

A lot of the discussion over the episode - all over, not just GAF - in fact centers around exactly that; a lot of people having trouble seeing a mental world as real or even a legitimate existence.
 

BruceCLea

Banned
lol, really?

Never watch ever Six Feet Under. It may be the end of you if a single 80-minute episode can elicit this sort of response.

I like to cry. I think it's healthy. I have horrific anxiey and crying really makes me feel better. I don't cry at the drop of a hat, but I appreciate something that elicits an emotional response. That being said, don't think I wanna see Six Feet Under. 😐
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
I have a GAF/Steam friend I regularly talk to about film/television and, having recently binged Black Mirror, recommended this episode the other day for the titular reason. He said he tried to get into the show some time ago but found it too depressing and still resisted when I pointed out that the episodes are self-contained aside from the very occasional nod. We're still friends... but barely. :p
 
So in the Christmas special, the wife of the guy in the cabin (not John Hamm the other one) sings a song in a bar during Karaoke.

It's the same song that the girl sings during her audition in 15 million merits. She also says that it's a very old song and that the women in her family had passed it down for generations.

Are these two episodes in the same universe with 15 million merits being far into the future?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Yeah,
the religious angle was probably a cliche thrown in as an easy and quick way to represent opposition. While the story was focused on the characters, a lot of ground could have been explored relating to how people are hung up on "what is real" which doesn't need to have anything to do with religion.

A lot of the discussion over the episode - all over, not just GAF - in fact centers around exactly that; a lot of people having trouble seeing a mental world as real or even a legitimate existence.

Yeah. Unfortunately it's all hung on whether Kelly will ever see her dead daughter/husband again. And if you don't believe in Heaven, you know the answer is no, because they're dead and their brains weren't copied. If it was a philosophical question about whether or not cloning your brain on a computer is still "you", then it would be more interesting - at least to atheists/agnostics.
 

BLACKLAC

Member
So in the Christmas special, the wife of the guy in the cabin (not John Hamm the other one) sings a song in a bar during Karaoke.

It's the same song that the girl sings during her audition in 15 million merits. She also says that it's a very old song and that the women in her family had passed it down for generations.

Are these two episodes in the same universe with 15 million merits being far into the future?

Faye Marsay's character in Hated in the Nation mentions she solved the crime from White Bear.
 

firelogic

Member
SJP is my favourite episode of this season. My top 3 are

1. Be Right Back
2. White Christmas
3. San Junipero

Honourable mention: Shut Up and Dance
 
Having seen no episodes of Black Mirror at all, or actually even knowing it existed at all, my coworkers watched this like a month and a half ago and I watched along with them and I loved it. Still the only Black Mirror ep I've watched, though.

Is this the bar of the entire Black Mirror series or is this truly just an exceptional standout episode?
 
Having seen no episodes of Black Mirror at all, or actually even knowing it existed at all, my coworkers watched this like a month and a half ago and I watched along with them and I loved it. Still the only Black Mirror ep I've watched, though.

Is this the bar of the entire Black Mirror series or is this truly just an exceptional standout episode?

Most episodes of Black Mirror are all fantastic and better than most TV shows. The thing about San Junipero though, is that it is not representative of Black Mirror's tone at all. Every other episode is dour and quite pessimistic, with some being downright soul-crushing.
 

Vilam

Maxis Redwood
It's interesting that some not only assert that it must be a happy ending, but are actually getting confrontational when presented with people who see a darker side to the ending.

I also find it odd that multiple folks have asserted that to find the ending disturbing must mean that you're religious. I'm an atheist, but the shot of
hundreds of thousands of people plugged into a mainframe
was seriously unsettling and made the mind race with questions.

Personally I love the episode precisely because I do find a lot of dark possibilities and implications within it, but it's story is told so effectively that many - as evidenced here - are blinded to them. Ah well, ignorance is bliss.
 

Hypnotoad

Member
Faye Marsay's character in Hated in the Nation mentions she solved the crime from White Bear.

This actually bugged me, since Hated in the Nation seems to take place at a more empathatic place in time than White Bear, which is already pretty extreme, having set up a whole theme park for revenge punishment on a single criminal.
 

BLACKLAC

Member
Personally I love the episode precisely because I do find a lot of dark possibilities and implications within it, but it's story is told so effectively that many - as evidenced here - are blinded to them. Ah well, ignorance is bliss.

What are the dark possibilities and implications within it?

This actually bugged me, since Hated in the Nation seems to take place at a more empathatic place in time than White Bear, which is already pretty extreme, having set up a whole theme park for revenge punishment on a single criminal.

Hated in the Nation also has a news crawl reading "cookies receive human rights"
 
I've only watched the first season (just started watching the show last month), but the second episode became one of my favorites. Excited to keep watching.
 

Hypnotoad

Member
What are the dark possibilities and implications within it?



Hated in the Nation also has a news crawl reading "cookies receive human rights"

Didn't notice that... 15 Million Credits only makes sense in the "Black Mirror Extended Universe" if it is inhabited by cookies.
 

Aske

Member
It's fun to link the universes together, but Brooker has gone on record saying despite the Easter Eggs (and there are lots of them), each episode is self-contained and no more in the same universe than episodes of The Twilight Zone.
 

RuhRo

Member
I found the Bryce Dallas Howard one (Nosedive?) to be as good as any piece of television from any era. Smart and funny and poignant with bravura performances and direction. What a show.

(Trivia: the episode I'm referring to was written by Rashida Jones, of all people, and directed by the great Joe Wright, of Atonement fame.)
 

Davey Cakes

Member
I found the Bryce Dallas Howard one (Nosedive?) to be as good as any piece of television from any era. Smart and funny and poignant with bravura performances and direction. What a show.
Nosedive was the second episode of the show that I watched and I loved it. Still consider it in the Top 3. It's obviously on point with the social media and the attempts at "people rating apps" such as Peeple, but the ending especially was just about the most perfect thing.
 

Aske

Member
It's interesting that some not only assert that it must be a happy ending, but are actually getting confrontational when presented with people who see a darker side to the ending.

I also find it odd that multiple folks have asserted that to find the ending disturbing must mean that you're religious. I'm an atheist, but the shot of
hundreds of thousands of people plugged into a mainframe
was seriously unsettling and made the mind race with questions.

Personally I love the episode precisely because I do find a lot of dark possibilities and implications within it, but it's story is told so effectively that many - as evidenced here - are blinded to them. Ah well, ignorance is bliss.

This is like watching The Goonies, saying the ending raises a ton of dark questions ("what are the legal implications of Chunk adopting Sloth? He never asked his parents. Realistically Sloth'll be out on the streets and dead in a gutter!"), and then being surprised when other viewers point out that the story being told by the show is clearly intended to wrap up happily.

A woman who's been victimised by her religious family for being gay, and paralysed her entire adult life, gets to reclaim her lost youth and experience love for the first time. She meets a woman who felt compelled to reject continued existence due to survivor guilt, and who then chooses a man-made afterlife and a new love rather than non-existence. That's the story. There's plenty of room to wonder about the darker implications of this technology, but the story is about two people transitioning joyfully into their new lives.
 
This is like watching The Goonies, saying the ending raises a ton of dark questions ("what are the legal implications of Chunk adopting Sloth? He never asked his parents. Realistically Sloth'll be out on the streets and dead in a gutter!"), and then being surprised when other viewers point out that the story being told by the show is clearly intended to wrap up happily.

A woman who's been victimised by her religious family for being gay, and paralysed her entire adult life, gets to reclaim her lost youth and experience love for the first time. She meets a woman who felt compelled to reject continued existence due to survivor guilt, and who then chooses a man-made afterlife and a new love rather than non-existence. That's the story. There's plenty of room to wonder about the darker implications of this technology, but the story is about two people transitioning joyfully into their new lives.

Pretty much all that needs to be said, really.
 

Daft_Cat

Member
The atmosphere is great, the initial sense of mystery is wonderful, and the twist is quite bold and touching. That said, I feel like the direction lays it all on a bit thick. It's already a heavy script, full of emotionally complex character arcs. The somewhat sentimental execution felt like overkill to me.

It's still a good episode of an incredible series - don't get me wrong.
 
There's plenty of room to wonder about the darker implications of this technology, but the story is about two people transitioning joyfully into their new lives.

I don't see how you can separate these two when discussing the implications and ultimate meaning of the story. The technology revealed in the final shots is literally where the characters end up, and so part and parcel of what makes the characters' fates happy or not. I don't see anything contradictory in recognizing that from the characters' perspectives (and for the most part, the episode's), it is an unabashedly joyful and heartwarming ending, but at the same time thinking that what's revealed at the end casts some existential uncertainty about the meaning of their decision that the characters are either unaware of or have chosen not to care about for the moment. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Like Vilam, I find the tone of the some posts in this thread, that their interpretation of the episode is simply the only objectively correct one, and anyone who disagrees must be bringing in their own personal baggage (as if anyone saying that can be absolutely certain they are immune to doing so) to be a little off-putting.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I don't see how you can separate these two when discussing the implications and ultimate meaning of the story. The technology revealed in the final shots is literally where the characters end up, and so part and parcel of what makes the characters' fates happy or not. I don't see anything contradictory in recognizing that from the characters' perspectives (and for the most part, the episode's), it is an unabashedly joyful and heartwarming ending, but at the same time thinking that what's revealed at the end casts some existential uncertainty about the meaning of their decision that the characters are either unaware of or have chosen not to care about for the moment. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Like Vilam, I find the tone of the some posts in this thread, that their interpretation of the episode is simply the only objectively correct one, and anyone who disagrees must be bringing in their own personal baggage (as if anyone saying that can be absolutely certain they are immune to doing so) to be a little off-putting.

The thing is that they know exactly what they're getting into. This is like that thread about transporters on Star Trek that popped up awhile ago and whether or not you "die" every time you beam down to a planet. The society of Star Trek accepted and resolved those questions, and presumably the people in this world has as well since it's seen as routine. It's not like this is the Matrix where robot overlords are trying to trick humans by uploading them to some fake virtual reality, and if anything, the last shot is meant to show how routine this whole procedure has become.

I think the big "philosophical" question is whether or not human beings can scientifically solve the "problem" of Heaven (and whether you can, as they beat you over the head with, create Heaven on Earth). But if you don't believe in Heaven in the first place, and you believe that you cease to exist the moment the neurons in your brains stop firing, that question loses a lot of its power.
 
San Junipero episode really touched me and made me think differently about life. I haven't felt that way since the final montage of the finale of Six Feet Under.
 
I think the big "philosophical" question is whether or not human beings can scientifically solve the "problem" of Heaven (and whether you can, as they beat you over the head with, create Heaven on Earth). But if you don't believe in Heaven in the first place, and you believe that you cease to exist the moment the neurons in your brains stop firing, that question loses a lot of its power.

Not sure if I can agree completely on the last part. I am agnostic and don't believe in heaven or hell, but I also believe we can replicated our "neurons firing". Like Star Trek if you consider the teleported you a copy. It is still you, since it behaves the same. So a simulated after life would be an extention, something that you ran for a while and can plug out if you wish (as oneof the characters pointed out in the end). An eternity in there would be not heaven, but hell. A limited timr? Very fine.
 

kaizoku

I'm not as deluded as I make myself out to be
You know part of the point of these episodes is having no idea how it's gonna end or what it's true nature is and you've now basically told everyone. It's fine and all but....well....would your experience have been better with or without that knowledge?
 

Aske

Member
I don't see how you can separate these two when discussing the implications and ultimate meaning of the story. The technology revealed in the final shots is literally where the characters end up, and so part and parcel of what makes the characters' fates happy or not. I don't see anything contradictory in recognizing that from the characters' perspectives (and for the most part, the episode's), it is an unabashedly joyful and heartwarming ending, but at the same time thinking that what's revealed at the end casts some existential uncertainty about the meaning of their decision that the characters are either unaware of or have chosen not to care about for the moment. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Like Vilam, I find the tone of the some posts in this thread, that their interpretation of the episode is simply the only objectively correct one, and anyone who disagrees must be bringing in their own personal baggage (as if anyone saying that can be absolutely certain they are immune to doing so) to be a little off-putting.

I'd say that there's a difference between the episode's story - the narrative being told via the interactions of characters with whom we empathise to varying degrees - and the universe the episode establishes in which it tells that story.

I also think the reason for the vehemence with which posters are arguing their stance is two-fold, at least in my case: the emotional high of what is certainly one of the best love stories and happiest endings to anything that I've ever seen feels somewhat sacred. I care about these characters. I empathised with these characters. I saw them drive off into the sunset. The power of the story is such that questioning the happiness of these characters gets in the way of my joy.

"Wasn't The Goonies awesome?" "I guess, but you know Sloth probably rolled onto his back and died that night like the elephant man, right?". In the Gooniverse, Sloth might well have died horribly seconds after the credits roll, but while that's a valid discussion point about the biology of Sloth, it's not accurately pinpointing an ambiguous message being delivered by the movie in order to call the happiness of the ending into question. Feel free to pull on that thread, but to argue that actually The Goonies didn't have a happy ending just seems needlessly cynical.

The second reason is that by every storytelling metric over can possibly apply, the ending is objectively happy. The universe or society in which the story takes place might not be ("what about all those innocent contractors who worked on the Death Star who died when the rebels blew it up?), but this is a happy story with a happy ending; and to deny that feels so utterly absurd that the sheer incredulity begets some very black and white responses. It's not "they're so happy...but ominous machine!"; it's "they're happy, and they're in a machine now. Maybe our souls don't have to be defined by superstition. Maybe they're things we can create?" It's intended to provoke thought, but not in a way that casts a shadow over the tale of its two protagonists.

I'd think that as long as people are debating the issue respectfully, the vehemence of their viewpoints wouldn't be cause for concern - I apologise if anything I've posted came off as aggressive. I'm just utterly convinced of my rightness with regard to this question, and protective of the happiness that made me feel good.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
I absolutely loved this. I lost a partner to cancer a few years ago and this episode had me sobbing. In a good way.

Superb storytelling and an amazing flood of emotion.
 
Beautiful love story, weird un-Black Mirror ending.

It's one of my favorite episode of the series but I can't help but feel the ending was rewritten because it's kind of awkward considering how not thematic it is to the entire series.
 

BLACKLAC

Member
The thing is that they know exactly what they're getting into. This is like that thread about transporters on Star Trek that popped up awhile ago and whether or not you "die" every time you beam down to a planet. The society of Star Trek accepted and resolved those questions, and presumably the people in this world has as well since it's seen as routine. It's not like this is the Matrix where robot overlords are trying to trick humans by uploading them to some fake virtual reality, and if anything, the last shot is meant to show how routine this whole procedure has become.

I think the big "philosophical" question is whether or not human beings can scientifically solve the "problem" of Heaven (and whether you can, as they beat you over the head with, create Heaven on Earth). But if you don't believe in Heaven in the first place, and you believe that you cease to exist the moment the neurons in your brains stop firing, that question loses a lot of its power.

Pretty much this. It all comes down to character motivations and the characters are fully aware of the situation and their decision.
 
I loved this episode, and honestly I think I still would have loved it if the ending had been bittersweet or even depressing like most of Black Mirror's episodes. I don't mind a happy ending as an outlier.
 

rhino4evr

Member
I agree. My wife and I have watched it 3 times. That's the only episode of tv I can think of recently where we Actually wanted to rewatch it.
 

99Luffy

Banned
I thought the execution was pretty terrible, and whos idea was it to end with that belinda carlisle song.
They should have developed their relationship more in the beginning and then end with both them wearing wedding dresses standing in front of a setting sun with the clint mansell track playing in the background.
 

mantidor

Member
Beautiful love story, weird un-Black Mirror ending.

It's one of my favorite episode of the series but I can't help but feel the ending was rewritten because it's kind of awkward considering how not thematic it is to the entire series.

Nah Brooker has said many of the ideas behind the episode are about subverting expectations from regular BM viewers, thats why it opens with a big "1980" sign instead of the usual futuristic stuff.
 
Yeah. Unfortunately it's all hung on whether Kelly will ever see her dead daughter/husband again. And if you don't believe in Heaven, you know the answer is no, because they're dead and their brains weren't copied. If it was a philosophical question about whether or not cloning your brain on a computer is still "you", then it would be more interesting - at least to atheists/agnostics.

I think of it this way: It seems people who spend too much time in the simulation eventually go crazy and lose themselves. This is fine, so long as you can willingly leave at any time. Easy, when you are alive. When you are dead on the outside you don't have a choice, you either spend forever in the simulation or you stop existing.

But is that so bad, you might ask? If you can self-terminate at any time then you just live until you are tired of living. The problem us that these people are clearly afraid of death. They DON'T accept it, to the point that they'd rather live in an unnatural man-made limbo rather than pass on, even knowing the risks. And if you were too afraid to die naturally, when are you ever going to want to willingly kill yourself? Especially given that, at some point, it'll be too late to even try.
 

Burt

Member
Just finished this (because I'd heard a bunch about it and then SNL pushed it over the top for me for whatever reason, I wasn't doing anything else). It's really great.

I don't think that I've seen anything in any medium ever that had such a sublimely paced drip of information that would constantly reframe every line and every scene. As an episode of Black Mirror, it was actually a little distracting because I spent so much of the first... third, I would guess, trying to piece together what the tech hook was, but that's not actually an issue with the work itself, and it all came together so well as to be definitively irrelevant.

My real issue with the episode is the ending. We didn't get the tragedy of two lovers missing out on their chance to reconcile because of the dark cruelty of life and time even in a world where people run heaven, and then dealing with the eternal consequences in San Junipero and in death. But we didn't get a cathartic reconciliation either. We got a big old '???' and a lifeless cut to 'And they lived happily ever after', as if after all of her talk and characterization and literally her last spoken line, she arrived at death's doorstep and balked... except we didn't even get that moment, where she confronts the possibility of eternal darkness and takes the easy way out.

Maybe that's the point, that San Junipero is the gormless, lukewarm, bullshit way out, but even if that's the case, purposefully making the ending so unappealingly milquetoast would be a disservice to such an emotional roller coaster of an episode.
 
This episode was amazing, I had to run a search on Gaf to see if anyone was talking about it. I was tearing up at the end, and that is difficult for a show/movie to do to me.
 
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