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Down syndrome in Iceland is disappearing due to abortions
- Thread starter Strax
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firehawk12
Subete no aware
This is the truth about Conservative ideology. Force people to have children, but provide no support whatsoever when they do.
This sounds pretty awesome. An embryo is just a cell. We/they are not murdering a life because it's not born the way we want it.
Scientists make embryos in the lab ALL THE TIME and they are genetically modified that they stop growing and die after a few days. It's not like the scientists are committing murder daily.
People connect these things to a soul and whatnot and that's where things get tricky.
Scientists make embryos in the lab ALL THE TIME and they are genetically modified that they stop growing and die after a few days. It's not like the scientists are committing murder daily.
People connect these things to a soul and whatnot and that's where things get tricky.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Very well said, I had about three attempts at responding to that post that wasn't just me calling that person all the names under the sun.
Which isn't easy at all, it's something they'll never forget. Completely support the choice.
Astral Dog
Member
Thats horrible,very sad
I remember the average worldwide there was slightly more women than men in the world
As one of the few pro life people here, I'd like to remind everyone our movement was brushed off and sometimes mocked for predicting this would happen.
We're predicting it doesn't stop with downs syndrome. I know how I feel about this, but I'm not sure all of you do.
Also, as someone who was adopted as an infant, I'd point out that special needs children with all types of issues are adopted as well.
We're predicting it doesn't stop with downs syndrome. I know how I feel about this, but I'm not sure all of you do.
Also, as someone who was adopted as an infant, I'd point out that special needs children with all types of issues are adopted as well.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
I have a sister who has down syndrome. And I love her with every part of my being. But I've seen the toll, torment and sadness that my Mother has committed to. And as she gets older and weaker, she is kept up a night wondering what life will be like for her daughter when she passes.
I can't fault anyone for not wanting or being able to commit to that. A special needs child is a lot of work that a lot of people aren't cut out for.
I can't fault anyone for not wanting or being able to commit to that. A special needs child is a lot of work that a lot of people aren't cut out for.
Predicting what would happen? In this case the occurrence of Down syndrome is disappearing in Iceland.
Astral Dog
Member
I think this depends on the family disposition, a Down child cAn have a happy life but its also how his/her family takes care, because its incredibly difficult.
Has to be decided on a case by case basis because some women will decide different for their lives according to their means
that some people would choose to have abortions for reasons others might find offensive
this of course extends to other areas, such that most prolifers believe we shouldn't have free speech because people might say things others don't like and so on
no. I am not really for this, and I am pro-choice.
My nephew has down syndrome, and he is awesome. Anyone choosing to terminate a pregnancy because of the inconvenience to them or their family isn't any less of a selfish prick than if the child had downs or they just didn't want children. And for THAT, the unborn child is likely better off.
I am 100% for people having the right to have abortions.. it's needed to protect the people who truly need them. Using it as a form of birth control, selective breeding, or just a reset button... well those people are shit, but better they're allowed to be shit (and save the likely emotional harm to their unborn kids) than take the right away from people who need it.
edit - subatai said it.. children with disabilities are given up for adoption AND subsequently adopted ALL the time. possibly even at a higher rate. especially for less impacting disabilities like downs, autism, etc.
Mammoth Jones
Member
As long as it's not state-sanctioned or even state-incentivized I don't see any issue: Her body. Her choice. The End.
Impeccable
Member
Just like all cases of abortion, if they don't want the child feel free.
Taking care of a special needs child is no joke and if someone doesn't think they can provide a quality of life for the child or themselves I would rather that life be ended before everyone inthat specific situation is worse off.
Mammoth Jones
Member
So a person in poverty that gets an abortion because they know they can't afford a child long term is now a selfish prick? Ok....
So you're 100% for people having the right to have abortions but think they're selfish pricks and shit if they do so for any reason that doesn't jive with you, correct?
It won't completely be eliminated, the CBS headline is misleading. It just so happens that an overwhelming majority of the fetuses in Iceland with Down Syndrome are being aborted, and that abortion trend will likely continue indefinitely.
AuthenticM
Member
Seriously. It's not fucking complicated.
I think generalizing disabled people as living mostly happy lives is just as bad as condemning them all.
My brother has severe brain damage. He's 21 years old and can't walk, talk, feed himself, or go the bathroom. For 21 years, his life has involved laying in a bed, or in a wheelchair, staring off into space. He has a feeding tube, and suffers from severe seizures if he doesn't have a ton pills ground up, mixed into water, and then shot into his mouth with a syringe each and every day. He has to have suppositories shoved up his butt every day in order to make him poop. In the last few years, he started to develop bed sores, which require frequent ointment and bandage changes. His spine has begun to twist, and he basically looks like a pretzel.
If you looked into my brother's eyes and told him he's a cruel joke and the world would be better off without him, he wouldn't know what you were talking about, because he doesn't understand English. It's not even clear that he can see.
His life has absolutely not been worth living, and the day he dies I will celebrate that a soul, trapped in such a twisted and broken, body will finally be free.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
I'm pro-abotion for any reason.
I also don't think someone born with Down syndrome is worth less as a person, but abortions done for that reason are done because the parents maybe don't feel capable of that extra responsibility, not because they're shit people.
I also don't think someone born with Down syndrome is worth less as a person, but abortions done for that reason are done because the parents maybe don't feel capable of that extra responsibility, not because they're shit people.
Many states you are allowed to give up your children if you don't believe you can care for them anymore without any kind of punishment. You have to do it the proper way just like you have to do an abortion the proper way
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No, what's unthinkably barbaric is forcing women to give birth.
This is because of the one-child policy and its remnants, and a deeply misogynistic culture.
The solution is to address those problems and fix them, not restrict abortions.
Patrick Bateman
Member
I find this post pretty impressive and even quite sad.
In my opinion you can't tell people to be 100% pro-life and then deny them the support they need.
It's not a thing about finance, but I find this highly irresponsible and simply unfair to tell people how they have to deal with their body and their unborn child, but as soon as it is born nobody gives a crap, but talks about what's not included in health care and what support you don't get.
you literally just described how opinions work. good job.
and yes, I am 100% for people having the right to have abortions.
edit - as for your example, if they are impoverished.. did their birth control fail? If so and they can't afford a kid, then that would sure seem like a case where that kid would likely not have a great life etc.. If there was no birth control to begin with and both were aware of and ok with that............
AlexFlame116
Member
Forgive me for asking but is it ever going to be possible to completely get rid of down syndrome? A close possibility or is it still far off?
Mammoth Jones
Member
I'm asking to make sure I'm understanding your (shitty) views correctly so that you can't bitch and say "but that's not what I meant". Thanks for condescendingly clarifying.
But they're shitty people when they do, lol. Ok...
TheSecondSpitter
Member
I sympathize for the notion that we should let nature have some control over things, but we are quite past that and have been for some time.
We manipulate nature in so many ways (food, technology, energy, etc) and why should we stop at controlling the conditions of our children before birth? If I had a choice between a perfectly healthy baby and a baby born with a debilitating disease or leave it up to chance I am going to choose healthy baby.
We manipulate nature in so many ways (food, technology, energy, etc) and why should we stop at controlling the conditions of our children before birth? If I had a choice between a perfectly healthy baby and a baby born with a debilitating disease or leave it up to chance I am going to choose healthy baby.
with genetic manipulation, likely, or at least mostly.
prior to genetic manipulation, unlikely.
lol, get over yourself. you're judgment here is no different than mine. condescending and all. lol. your high and mighty horse is sinking in quicksand. my opinion neither hurts anyone nor condones hurting or taking anything away from anyone.
Alcotholic
Banned
It would be very far off. Down syndrome is extra chromosomes in the DNA and right now we have no way to control that.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I believe so yeah ... Like if a woman is closer to 40 chances go way up etc, so it's certainly not pure genes right?
Far, far off, perhaps science fiction.
People have the right to do a lot of shitty things, to be fair
Impeccable
Member
This stuff is boring. Labelling and throwing away something because you can't or won't discuss something you believe in is the weakest thing possible.
Put up or shut up, either conversate or move along.
Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.
In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.
If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.
That are some of the upsides of Down.
It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.
There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.
Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.
People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.
Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.
In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"
My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."
But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.
If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.
That are some of the upsides of Down.
It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.
There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.
Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.
People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.
Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.
In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"
My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."
But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
Mammoth Jones
Member
"Be tolerant of me calling people that have abortions shit and selfish pricks when they do so for reasons I disagree with! Don't call me out on that! You're just like me for even mentioning it!"
Sorry but there's a difference between having a shitty view and someone inquiring and calling you out on it.
You're in no position to judge someone having an abortion. Their body. Their choice. No one should be called selfish or shit for having an abortion.
Agreed. But having an abortion isn't one of them. No one is in a position to judge someone's intimate circumstances that lead to them making that conclusion.
AuthenticM
Member
Fantastic fucking post. Thank you for sharing, dude.
nah, he wants to pick a fight.
"oh no someone's opinion is different than mine!"
I am guessing he is trying to goad me into "abortion is bad mmkay". But yeah.. people use all sorts of legal and inherent rights to do shitty things all the time. not much is exempt.
excelsiorlef
Member
I mean adoption agencies exist as do no fault drop offs in early days in many states.
You make a shitty analogy buddy.
Exactly this. If we aren't going to have single payer quality health care it sure as shit seems pretty fucked up to force people to have children they don't want (up to a certain point here, not advocating healthy late stage abortions).
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
I get how it feels morally different, but there's something weird to me about having no problem with abortion just because someone doesn't feel like being a parent, but having a problem when someone chooses abortion for a specific medical reason.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
How about YOU follow what he was responding to: The word "fetus" was never mentioned. And the person he was replying to is 100% correct. He's just a serial shitposter with a long history of shitposting which why he got juniored.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I just don't view someone's decision to have an abortion as a selfish prick and wonder why you believe that of people. You support abortions but turn around and denigrate people for having them. That's odd.
excelsiorlef
Member
Well I mean you don't force women to stay pregnant for any reason.
That's the be all end all.
lol, NEVER did I say "everyone who has an abortion...." this is EXACTLY like trump supporters saying "so they'[re calling ALL of us racist"
people have abortions for an infinite number of reasons. and cover an infinite degrees of responsibility across the spectrum..
called? of course not. don't be daft. still doesn't mean that there aren't people who do it for incredibly stupid or irresponsible reasons.
I swear to god, reading is fundamental. no I do not "denigrate all people" etc etc. not even close. and nowhere have I ever said that, so I don't know how you keep reading it. sorry you are so worked up about this but you are reading into shit I never typed.
excelsiorlef
Member
ShironRedshift
Member
Cruz is playing a dangerous game here. Just bringing up other nations also brings up one of the flaws of laws prohibiting abortions. Even if abortion were changed to be completely 100% illicit in the United States, there would nothing to stop the comparatively wealthy/those who have the resources to do so from hopping on a plane to, say, Iceland, and getting an abortion there instead. Such laws in effect would only prohibit those who are poor/comparatively lacking in resources from being able to make the choice to have an abortion or not. And having access to such services, and having the ability to choose determined not by whether it's right or wrong, ethical or unethical, but just how many resources/connections one has is an inherently unjust proposition (which there already is too much of in the United States and also why we should be moving towards eventually having some type of single-player healthcare system and not double down on those types of issues).
That aside, abortion is a woman's choice. That being the case, that means that if a woman chooses to have an abortion, that choice can be due to any reason she decides. It's not my place to say otherwise, and I'd be extremely uncomfortable doing so, particularly as that would open up a Pandora's box that would defeat the entire purpose of women having the ability to choose as from there more and more men would come out of the woodwork to decide what reasons are good enough, and which aren't, on "behalf" of woman and child. Nah. It's their choice, which means understandong that they've considered all of the same information as anyone else (and very likely more heavily/intensely) and are capable of making that choice on their own and don't need to be infantalized or condescended toward at any point in that process. If that includes say, getting an abortion because a test comes up positive for trisomy 21, that's their choice and no one else's.
That aside, abortion is a woman's choice. That being the case, that means that if a woman chooses to have an abortion, that choice can be due to any reason she decides. It's not my place to say otherwise, and I'd be extremely uncomfortable doing so, particularly as that would open up a Pandora's box that would defeat the entire purpose of women having the ability to choose as from there more and more men would come out of the woodwork to decide what reasons are good enough, and which aren't, on "behalf" of woman and child. Nah. It's their choice, which means understandong that they've considered all of the same information as anyone else (and very likely more heavily/intensely) and are capable of making that choice on their own and don't need to be infantalized or condescended toward at any point in that process. If that includes say, getting an abortion because a test comes up positive for trisomy 21, that's their choice and no one else's.
Ryzaki009
Member
I'm in the token of it being her choice regardless of reasoning (gender, illness, bad timing, changed mind, etc). I might not agree with the choice in particular but I'm not having the child, not forced to clean up after it or dedicate time, energy or money towards it so the mother has every right to abort. Aborting for any reason whatsoever doesn't really bother me because it's not my decision. If anything I feel one shouldn't have children lightly and should wait until they're able to properly provide for them but that's my optimist speaking.
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