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Radeon RX Vega thread

Can anyone explain why AMD flops and vega flops in particular translate into so little performance in games compared to nvidia flops?

Given that vega 56 is a 10 TF card, it should outperformance the GTX1080 (9 TF), but it is more in line with a 1070. The same applies for vega 64, a 12.5 TF card that is not even close to the GTX 1080 TI (12 TF)? This really suggest that next gen consoles will not be that powerful, even if it uses navi and a 7nm node process. We should be happy if they outperform a GTX 1080 when they releases since SONY/MS will most likely use low-mid range navi AMD cards (around twice the TF of a current low-mid range AMD card RX 480/580 x 2=ca 10-12 TF, given that transistors shrink from 14nm to 7nm, assuming that navi is as inefficient as vega.)

Even if on PC GCN's compute capability isn't fully utilized, on console it's easier for devs to optimize for that specific hardware configuration. So in essense the Nvidia vs. AMD FLOPs on PC doesn't translate the same way on console. Of course it still depends on the devs putting in the effort to optimize for the hw.
 

llien

Member
Nvidia flops seem to be more efficiently utilized in typical game scenarios.

No, I wish people would stop with the "inefficient tflops" fallacy.

1060 is a 210 square mms chip.
580 is a 230 square mms chip.

With about 10% bigger die, 580 can pump out 50% more "tflops".
Where would the performance be, if mentioned elusive "efficient utilization of flops" was possible on AMD cards?
 

ISee

Member
No, I wish people would stop with the "inefficient tflops" fallacy.

1060 is a 210 square mms chip.
580 is a 230 square mms chip.

With about 10% bigger die, 580 can pump out 50% more "tflops".
Where would the performance be, if mentioned elusive "efficient utilization of flops" was possible on AMD cards?

That's what everybody is saying, without the elusive stuff. The 1060 has 80% less shading units and a 20% smaller die. Still both are very comparable performance wise. One could only wish for AMDs GCN architecture to be as effective as Nvidias Maxwell because 4k/60 wouldn't be a problem then.

BTW, the same can be said about nvidias keplar vs maxwell 3.0 or amds gcn architecture. The 780 Ti has a gigantic 561 mm² die, 2880 shaders and 6 tflops of raw performance but a RX 580 (~6tflops) and GTX 1060 (~5 tflops) run circles around that thing. Keplar is just very ineffective in comparision to maxwell, the same can be said about GCN vs. Maxwell. That's not a fallacy, just a fact when comparing theoretical raw vs real world performance.
 

Herne

Member
That was a long wait for them to essentially release something on par with cards that have been out for over a year (if you don't mind the excessive power draw). And they don't even have anything to match the 1080ti.

Given the extreme lack of funds RTG had to work with I'm surprised they're still able to compete, even if with year-old cards. Lisa Su does seem to be turning the company around though so let's hope they're able to give their teams more to work with from now on.
 

Marmelade

Member
Bit of a contradiction there. At lower frequencies, at Vega 56 levels and below, efficiency is not far off a Pascal 1060. That's hardly 'absolutely horrendous'. Pushed past the optimum a la Vega 64 Water Cooled edition, and then it's very bad.

Vega56 is only 6% more efficient than Fury X

RQ1c.png
 

ISee

Member
The actual answer to my question, which you marked bold, is "then 580 would stomp 1070 and be at 1080 levels".

Perf/tflop across architectures is a useless metric.

Yes it would be and as I said: 4k/60 would be affordable then. Wich would be fantastic, but it isn't. Tflops comparisons are not useless because it shows us if there are architectural improvements. For example nvidia claimed that pascal was dramatcally improved over maxwell, but in fact they perform very similar when running at the same raw performance. AMD claimed the same with fiji vs vega, but that was also false.
 

martino

Member
I heard vega was delayed to product enought for launch ? is the card officialy out ? it seems out of stock everywhere i looked (in france and i don't pretend to have checked everywhere)
 
No, I wish people would stop with the "inefficient tflops" fallacy.

1060 is a 210 square mms chip.
580 is a 230 square mms chip.

With about 10% bigger die, 580 can pump out 50% more "tflops".
Where would the performance be, if mentioned elusive "efficient utilization of flops" was possible on AMD cards?

For starters it wouldn't be 50% more flops at similar die size if they were to be used efficiently. AMD gets higher tflop number by prioritising shaders over everything else like ROPs and tesselators. Stuff like much better delta color compression on Nvidia cards probably also has cost in transistors budget.
 

dr_rus

Member
For games CB writes the following:

Tomb Raider:
GTX 1080 looses 7% performance with Tess on.
RX Vega 1%.
Fury X 18%
RX 580 6%

TW3 with Hairworks:
GTX 1080 16%
RX Vega 23%
Fury X and RX 580 both 31%

Games can be limited by something other than tessellation when you switch it on/off so a pure tess factor benchmark is more telling here. There's another one at PCGH and it basically shows the same result with Vega loosing more performance on higher tess factors than 1080. It's actually a bit of a win for AMD that Vega 10 is competing with GP104 here as it would just universally loose to a GP102 in this aspect.

Quite confusing is the topic around the primitive shader or the new Next-Generation-Geometry fast-path.
According to Computerbase and Golem it's not implemented yet, according to Anandtech (I belive) AMD said it is.
But synthetic tests show no higher throuhput than the classic pipeline can do, so it might be rather not implemented or only for certain applications.
In the white paper AMD mentions a peak rate of 17 primitives vs. the 11 they claimed in the beginning but the native/classic pipeline only achieves 4.
http://radeon.com/_downloads/vega-whitepaper-11.6.17.pdf

In general terms AMD doubled the size of the parameter cache so that might lead to less stalls overall.
So primitive shader seems to be a driver side optimization which they will have to implement for each application separately and transparently. Whether it will or won't help will solely depend on how geometry limited Vega 10 is - and I'd say that it's very unlikely to be geometry limited outside of professional space (meaning Vega FE). It's unclear if primitive shader will even help with tessellation performance however as there's little indication that tessellation isn't limited by itself on GCN, not by geometry pipeline.

Generally I would assume that whatever Vega has which can significantly impact its performance in games - this is already enabled and running in launch drivers. So I wouldn't expect any changes here, until at least we'll run into some game which will be solely geometry limited.

Ashes of the Singularity is not fully deterministic.
I wouldn't use it for precise claims because the results vary too much.

On the next page is Gears of War 4 with Async Compute.
There Vega profits around 7%, RX 580 also around 7% and the Fury X about 10%.
AotS has better (more) async than Gears4 though. Gears4 can be limited by the amount of async compute work while AotS is likely to be limited only by the amount of idle h/w available. The difference with Polaris is also too big to suspect that it's a benchmarking error. It also kinda make general sense considering how much flops are wasted on Vega in comparison.

Well it increases the instructions per clock cycles but it's quite misleading when you think in more general terms.
In the beginning one AMD architect said they increased the instruction buffers but in most cases that's probably just a minor perf bonus, AMD already increased the instruction buffers with Polaris and per clock we didn't saw huge improvements.
Benchmarks don't show any change. Whatever they've done is most likely eaten up by something else.

In general it's good to see that with RX Vega the texel rate seems normal.
Vega FE showed one quarter less throughput than the Fury X, now RX Vega and Fury X are looking the same.

On the effective bandwidth side the RX Vega results are also better than on the Vega FE.
The random texture throuhput (effectivly no compression help) shows 18% better results, with black textures only 4%.

But looking at the RX Vega @ 1.05 Ghz results with overclocked memory for the same 512 GB/s show still huge deficit in comparison to the Fury X.
Yeah, I still would not call Vega 10 exactly bandwidth starved though. Whatever is holding it's back is likely to be in the frontend, not backend.

Can anyone explain why AMD flops and vega flops in particular translate into so little performance in games compared to nvidia flops?
AMD's GCN GPU architecture is considerably worse in fully loading the shader core (where the flops number is coming from) when compared to NV's. There are many reasons for this which ultimately boil down to how GCN was designed in the first place. There are also some "hacks" now which kinda somewhat help with getting this load higher (like async compute for example), especially so on a fixed h/w platform, but ultimately it's GCN's inherent problem which can only be solved by moving to a new GPU architecture.

I heard vega was delayed to product enought for launch ? is the card officialy out ? it seems out of stock everywhere i looked (in france and i don't pretend to have checked everywhere)

Marketing bullshit.
 
I was more thinking these right here. The 1080Ti is ahead, but Vega 64 is pretty competitive in a few games with stock clocks and early/beta drivers....

GTAV: For a game that heavily favors Nvidia and Intel, this is pretty impressive for the Vega 64 against the T.I
fVT3TzG.jpg


Hitman Vega 64 vs 1080Ti FE, not bad...not bad at all
NtJu0kV.jpg


Some temps

Xs0CC62.jpg



And to think, this is the air cooled Vega 64 running games optimized for Nvidia for the most part. wish to see some Warhammer, Civilization, Doom, Battlefield, Infinite warfare, Advanced Warfare, Snipe Elite 4, Blops 3 and Dirt Rally amongst others. I think September and some driver updates will become very interesting for all three cards. Vega 56, 64air and 64 WC.

Well let's see

GTA V
gta5_4k.png


Hitman
hitman_4k_2.png


And to think all of this happens when you actually take benchmark which isn't CPU bottlenecked...
 

saskuatch

Member
Main reason I wanted amd to succeed was because gsync monitors are so god damn expensive. I am in the market for a new monitor but all the decently priced Ines area free sync but I am rocking nvidia
 
Not even close. A Vega 56 consumes 200+ watts while a 1060 consumes 110 watts with the 56 only having 30% extra performance. Just look at the difference between the 56 & 1070. How is this "not that far off"?

I'm not talking about Vega at 1600+ mhz though, I'd thought that was obvious. I don't know what testing you've done on the cards but:

The other big surprise besides good performance is how power efficient Vega can be if it's operating in the right clock/voltage band. Our testing shows power efficiency being close to the GeForce GTX 1060, which means Pascal is not that far away when running at the right settings. This increased efficiency translates into lower power draw, which means less heat is generated. This lets the cooler work less hard and results in less fan noise distracting your ears.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_RX_Vega_56/37.html
 

ethomaz

Banned
I'm not talking about Vega at 1600+ mhz though, I'd thought that was obvious. I don't know what testing you've done on the cards but:



https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_RX_Vega_56/37.html
From what I understood from your link is that Vega running at lower clock can give you a power efficiency close to GTX 1060 but that makes me things in two points:

a) Vega with lower clocks/voltage is a replacement to Polaris... that is dumb and of course not what AMD wished and so they need to works with high clocks to reach at least GTX 1080 level of performance.

b) If you decrease the GTX 1060 clocks/voltage then you will probably have a sub 80W power efficiency... any card you decrease clock/voltage the same will happen... so it is not the same power efficiency between these two architectures... if you underclock/undervolt to one you need to underclock/undervolt to other for comparison sake.

IMO saying the power efficiency is "not that far away" to Pascal is a false and dumb statement from a tech site.
 

Marmelade

Member
I'm not talking about Vega at 1600+ mhz though, I'd thought that was obvious. I don't know what testing you've done on the cards but:



https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_RX_Vega_56/37.html

Their own charts show the 1060 being 46% more efficient than Vega56 at 1080p and 36% at 1440p
And it compares even worse to 1070/1080
I don't see that as being close.

Edit: results from another review for comparison's sake (computerbase.de)
1060FE 51% more efficient @1080p, 45% @1440p

 

Smokey

Member
My guess would be that the chip itself was ready some time ago, likely by the end of 2016 when they had the first showing. But considering its complexity, with HBM2 and 486mm^2 die (which is bigger than that of GP102 actually), it was impossible to sell products on such chip back then at GTX 1070/1080 price points. So they had to wait for prices of 14nm platters and HBM2 chips to fall to a level where this was economically viable for them.

So the question is, was HBM2 worth it?
 

ethomaz

Banned
So the question is, was HBM2 worth it?
That is a question that I made twice already in this own thread.

I don't have any info but I guess the same chip with GDDR5x could do better in performace, power consumption and cost to AMD.

Sometimes it is better to stay with what works... with GDDR6 coming I think HBM2 adoption will take another hit... remember RAMBUS.
 

SRG01

Member
That is a question that I made twice already in this own thread.

I don't have any info but I guess the same chip with GDDR5x could do better in performace, power consumption and cost to AMD.

Sometimes it is better to stay with what works... with GDDR6 coming I think HBM2 adoption will take another hit... remember RAMBUS.

Probably not power consumption though. Buildzoid was ballparking numbers in his Vega thoughts video and concluded that AMD had to stick with HBM2 because the power envelope from GDDR was way too high. At least on the Vega FE, there wasn't much thermal room left after the GPU.
 

Marmelade

Member
That just all flew over your head. Read the post and quote again.

No I understood but I just don't see the point when it comes to Vega 56/64 and what they aim to be
"The other big surprise besides good performance is how power efficient Vega can be if it's operating in the right clock/voltage band"
What's the right clock/voltage band? I might be wrong but there's nothing in their review that backs up their claim.
They even say : "It seems that RX Vega 56 runs much closer to the optimal voltage/frequency curve than RX Vega 64"

This is stock Vega 56/64
LQ1c.png


How much more should we underclock/undervolt it?
 

ethomaz

Banned
Probably not power consumption though. Buildzoid was ballparking numbers in his Vega thoughts video and concluded that AMD had to stick with HBM2 because the power envelope from GDDR was way too high. At least on the Vega FE, there wasn't much thermal room left after the GPU.
If that is true (and looks like because on paper HBM is suppose to power draw less than GDDR5) then it makes it even worst to Vega chip because it is so inefficient that even the advantage of HBM2 is fucked when you look at overall power draw compared with similar card from competition.

That is why I want believe part of the difference is because the HBM2 and not just the Vega chip... I want believe AMD didn't make a chip way worst than Polaris in terms of power consumption.

If HBM2 is consuming less than GDDR5 then the chip is a mister power hungry at the point to be a bad design.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
How much more should we underclock/undervolt it?

AdoredTV did a good video on the Liquid Cooled, to keep it simple he recommends staying away from Turbo and using either balanced or even power saving if you're concerned about efficiency. Apparently these cards are using some crazy wattage to get that last 10% of performance. In Fallout 4 I believe the card was using like 90W for an extra two frames.

https://youtu.be/bIGpvBrwXvA
 
Can anyone explain why AMD flops and vega flops in particular translate into so little performance in games compared to nvidia flops?

There's more to performance than just raw math capability.

I'm not as familiar with GPU structure, but for example in a typical CPU pipeline you have fetch -> decode -> execute -> memory access -> register write. Execute is where the math part comes in.

But if you can't keep your pipeline full of operations to run you lose a lot of "raw" power because other parts of the CPU are bottlenecking it. So CPU designers have lots of tools to keep the pipe full of something to run, including out of order operation, speculative execution, and multi-threading (which duplicates the fetch/decode stage).

GPUs are different but you can imagine similar issues holding back performance. For example, GPUs are SIMD on a massive scale and SIMD execution by nature is typically memory bottlenecked, as speed can severely affect ability to get data to work on. So if Nvidia's design is better at getting data from memory to work on then they would be better able to make use of floating point math units than AMD's design.
 

joesiv

Member
That is a question that I made twice already in this own thread.

I don't have any info but I guess the same chip with GDDR5x could do better in performace, power consumption and cost to AMD.

Sometimes it is better to stay with what works... with GDDR6 coming I think HBM2 adoption will take another hit... remember RAMBUS.

Well it does seems that the HBM2 is hitting some crazy thermals, and being so close to the GPU, it can't be helping the thermal situation that's for sure.

Given that HBM2 isn't even hitting it's target frequencies with those temps, yeah seems sad to be stuck with it for Vega. Perhaps it'll get better in the interm before Navi. Or maybe it won't, since Navi is suppose to have "Next Gen Memory" rather than HBM2+ or HBM3.

I will say though that the packaging of HBM2 has a lot of potential! The nano cards should be even less long than the Fury Nano!
 
Vega FE vs Vega RX, by PCPER:

Code:
RX Vega Air vs. Vega FE 1440p   2160p
Dirt Rally              +10%     +9%
Fallout 4                +2%    +15%
Grand Theft Auto V      +10%    +19%
Hitman 2016             +15%    +15%
Rise of the Tomb Raider +16%    +22%
The Witcher 3           +16%    +18%
------------------------------------
Average                 +11%    +16%
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graph...Review-Vega-64-Vega-64-Liquid-Vega-56-Tested/

More than I expected.





What?



You think that explains better min fps on Vegas?

When a 1080ti has the same min fps as a 1070 it sure does. Also nvidia gpus have perf issues with ryzen cpus
 
No I understood but I just don't see the point when it comes to Vega 56/64 and what they aim to be
"The other big surprise besides good performance is how power efficient Vega can be if it's operating in the right clock/voltage band"
What's the right clock/voltage band?

This is stock Vega 56/64
LQ1c.png


How much more should we underclock/undervolt it?

Well I was more responding to the idea that Vega is an inefficient disaster across the spectrum and that its implementation in Apple products is a baffling decision. Yes, it's meant to be a high-end architecture but as we know it will be used to scale further down the performance tiers, where its efficiency compares more favourably compared to how things look pushed past 1600Mhz with the 64s.
 
GPUs are different but you can imagine similar issues holding back performance. For example, GPUs are SIMD on a massive scale and SIMD execution by nature is typically memory bottlenecked, as speed can severely affect ability to get data to work on. So if Nvidia's design is better at getting data from memory to work on then they would be better able to make use of floating point math units than AMD's design.

Memory used to be a limiting factor. It isn't much anymore. It's far outpaced memory sizes and the GPU designers are experts at hiding large prefetch latencies.

Keep in mind this is GREATLY oversimplified and some people far more knowledgeable than me are going to correct stuff. When a GPU is working on stuff it keeps data in its equivalent of registers. Now, GPUs can't execute the entire pipeline in a single cycle so they rapidly switch between threads. These are wavefronts in AMD terminology and warps in Nvidia's.

Now let's take an AMD CU. It has 4x 16 lane FP32 ALUs. It has 256KB of registers for those lanes. Nvidia is similar, they have 64 independent ALUs per SM and 256KB of registers for those ALUs.

So where's the difference? Scheduling.

AMD for full occupancy requires 10 wavefronts. 4 vector units, 64 work units per vector unit for a total of 2,560 work items.

Nvidia on the other hand for full occupancy requires 2,048 active threads. You can split it into various arrangements of warps, blocks, and work items which is irrelevant for this discussion.

So even though they both have the same number of ALU lanes and the same number of register sets, to maintain full occupancy a shader running on an AMD GPU requires you to use less than 26 registers per VGPR (65536/2560). Which gave rise to this infamous little diagram:


After you use more than 24 registers per shader on average you risk the pipeline starting to stall as it has to fetch out to memory. On Nvidia this number is 32. So Nvidia can run more complicated shaders before the pipeline starts to stall out. Guess what programmers do to make their graphics prettier? They make their shaders bigger and longer and more complicated.

So it ends up being a hell of a lot easier to run an Nvidia card to its fuller potential. That's why Nvidia cards whip an AMD card with less TFLOPs but then the exact reverse happens on compute benchmarks. Gaming is typically way less than full occupancy even when your GPU reports that its running flat strap. It's why your GPU will run at 2GHz on a game and 1.8GHz on Furmark. Nvidia is better at keeping its pipes full because it has more storage for the working set for a full occupancy pipeline, less pipeline stalls, and more efficiency running code.
 

kotodama

Member
AdoredTV did a good video on the Liquid Cooled, to keep it simple he recommends staying away from Turbo and using either balanced or even power saving if you're concerned about efficiency. Apparently these cards are using some crazy wattage to get that last 10% of performance. In Fallout 4 I believe the card was using like 90W for an extra two frames.

https://youtu.be/bIGpvBrwXvA

Yeah Balanced or Power Saving Mode seem to be the way to go. That Turbo mode is useless, but I guess thanks for not locking it out. Anyways, that got me thinking what my old 280X/7970 was pulling power wise. It seems like Vega 64 will be pulling the same amount of power, but with dramatically better performance. AIB cards and more stock can't come soon enough.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
According to Overclockers UK "AMD's RX 64 Launch pricing was only for "early sales""
https://www.overclock3d.net/news/gpu_displays/amd_s_rx_64_launch_pricing_was_only_for_early_sales/1

They're the only ones saying that for now so not sure how credible it really is

The article doesn't even make sense. The MSRP is the MSRP. Seems like OCUK somehow got a deal with AMD to sell the card with Prey/Wolfenstein closer to MSRP but it will have the $100 bundle premium that was advertised going forward.

ROFLMAO @ "On the retail side, there seems to be no indication that "standalone" RX Vega 64 models will ever become available again, which completely changes how Vega should be viewed from a value for money standpoint."
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, looks like Newegg has 4 hardware packs up. Of course, it's with the RX 64 priced at $599 and their 1700x is $60 more than Amazon, so the supposed $100 ~ $200 discount off the package really doesn't amount to much savings.
 

SRG01

Member
If that is true (and looks like because on paper HBM is suppose to power draw less than GDDR5) then it makes it even worst to Vega chip because it is so inefficient that even the advantage of HBM2 is fucked when you look at overall power draw compared with similar card from competition.

That is why I want believe part of the difference is because the HBM2 and not just the Vega chip... I want believe AMD didn't make a chip way worst than Polaris in terms of power consumption.

If HBM2 is consuming less than GDDR5 then the chip is a mister power hungry at the point to be a bad design.

Vega architecture simply doesn't scale well. We're seeing it clear as day comparing Turbo and Power Saving mode. Makes me wonder what the performance would be if Vega was both undervolted and underclocked.

A lot of the tech presentations mentioned that most of the silicon revision was to improve the clock speed. I wonder if that was the right call to make.
 

AmyS

Member
Off topic, lets say Sony went with an Nvidia GPU for PS5, regardless of TFLOPs and transistor count / die size, what would be the most likely base architecture they'd use: Volta or post-Volta ? Volta is 2017 technology for professionals / HPC market that won't reach gamers until early 2018.

If Sony sticks with AMD for PS5, the GPU architecture could be Navi (2019) or Navi with some Next Gen (2020) GPU features, not unlike PS4 Pro GPU being mainly Polaris based but having 2 features from Vega. If not fully AMD Next Gen.
 

Durante

Member
No, I wish people would stop with the "inefficient tflops" fallacy.

1060 is a 210 square mms chip.
580 is a 230 square mms chip.

With about 10% bigger die, 580 can pump out 50% more "tflops".
Where would the performance be, if mentioned elusive "efficient utilization of flops" was possible on AMD cards?
Aren't you just making the same point as the people you are discussing with here, with different words?

Nvidia appears to invest more die area for things that make games faster which aren't pure FLOPS. So their cards are more efficient per FLOP at running games.

You are really adamant about this whole Vega 64 > 1080ti thing aren't you? All evidence points to the Ti smashing the 64, and yet you just keep on believing. Its not drivers, its not bad benchmarks by literally everyone that has done benchmarks. Its the card. Its just not as powerful, its time to come back to reality.
Being adamant while being utterly and completely wrong is thelastword's entire MO.
Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen a thelastword post in a PC thread that wasn't worthless. (And actually, "worthless" is the best-case scenario -- often it might also be "distracting" or "aggravating")
 
Off topic, lets say Sony went with an Nvidia GPU for PS5, regardless of TFLOPs and transistor count / die size, what would be the most likely base architecture they'd use: Volta or post-Volta ? Volta is 2017 technology for professionals / HPC market that won't reach gamers until early 2018.

If Sony sticks with AMD for PS5, the GPU architecture could be Navi (2019) or Navi with some Next Gen (2020) GPU features, not unlike PS4 Pro GPU being mainly Polaris based but having 2 features from Vega. If not fully AMD Next Gen.

They are not going to go with Nvidia. They are locked to AMD because they need processor too for PS5 APU.
 
AdoredTV did a good video on the Liquid Cooled, to keep it simple he recommends staying away from Turbo and using either balanced or even power saving if you're concerned about efficiency. Apparently these cards are using some crazy wattage to get that last 10% of performance. In Fallout 4 I believe the card was using like 90W for an extra two frames.

https://youtu.be/bIGpvBrwXvA

Lol at the ending, trying to justify the 64 so damn hard :/
 

ethomaz

Banned
Vega architecture simply doesn't scale well. We're seeing it clear as day comparing Turbo and Power Saving mode. Makes me wonder what the performance would be if Vega was both undervolted and underclocked.

A lot of the tech presentations mentioned that most of the silicon revision was to improve the clock speed. I wonder if that was the right call to make.
Perhaps if you undervolt/underclock you will reach near Polaris performance...

How about overclock RX 580 to the same power draw of Vega 56 or Vega 64??? Which performance level it will reach???
 
Main reason I wanted amd to succeed was because gsync monitors are so god damn expensive. I am in the market for a new monitor but all the decently priced Ines area free sync but I am rocking nvidia

Most people keep monitors for 5-7 years. You will probably replace your video card at least once, and likely 2-3 times, during your monitors lifetime. Taking that into consideration, how expensive is G-sync really, and how much do you value being able to upgrade your video card when you are ready as opposed to being forced to wait?

Or to paraphrase a certain saying: "Freesync isn't Free." It requires you to buy into an objectively inferior technology and it locks you to a manufacturer which is incapable of producing a competitive product on a timely basis. And a monitor is a real investment, you keep a monitor you love until it breaks basically unless you're ready to step up to a higher resolution. So let me ask you, what is a couple hundred bucks worth to you over 5-7 years of being able to enjoy your gaming at the highest settings you like, with a clear GPU upgrade path from a manufacturer which regularly produces new products which are dramatically faster and more power efficient than previous generation products?

They are not going to go with Nvidia. They are locked to AMD because they need processor too for PS5 APU.

They could switch to ARM like Nintendo did. The question is if they will or not. x86 is looking like a dead end in terms of future consoles though.
 

dr_rus

Member
So the question is, was HBM2 worth it?

Was HBM worth it in general? It didn't help Fiji (and in fact it did hurt it in the maximum possible VRAM amount). It sure is hell isn't helping Vega now.

There's another side to this though - the reason HBM1/2 aren't looking too hot in gaming space is because NV's memory saving techniques are a couple of generations ahead of AMD's. Without this Maxwell wouldn't be able to compete with Fiji and as for Pascal - G5X was a nice surprise for sure as without it NV would probably have to either go for 512 bit bus again or use HBM1/2 as well.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that Navi's "nex gen memory" is actually G6. Considering that AMD's been saying things lately about how HBCC helps even without HBM - I wouldn't be surprised to find out that even Vega 11 won't use it.

Off topic, lets say Sony went with an Nvidia GPU for PS5, regardless of TFLOPs and transistor count / die size, what would be the most likely base architecture they'd use: Volta or post-Volta ? Volta is 2017 technology for professionals / HPC market that won't reach gamers until early 2018.
Post-Volta most certainly. Volta is unlikely to reach gamers, ever, as of right now.

If Sony sticks with AMD for PS5, the GPU architecture could be Navi (2019) or Navi with some Next Gen (2020) GPU features, not unlike PS4 Pro GPU being mainly Polaris based but having 2 features from Vega. If not fully AMD Next Gen.
Likely Navi. In case of AMD it's more a question of what Navi and the next one will even be. If these will be GCN6 and GCN7 then it's unlikely to matter much which particular they'll use as I don't believe in them being able to push GCN above the level it is now on in Polaris and Vega. They need a clean break to make any kind of significant improvement.
 
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