Hierophant
Banned
The key word here is Nazi, other western countries have hate speech laws and are better for it yet the United States can have people walking down main street with a big swastika while yelling nigger at people.
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Tensions grow inside ACLU over defending speech rights for the far right
- Thread starter Shard
- Start date
Marching as Nazis and with Nazi symbols just needs to be ruled by a court to be an Incitement of Violence in and of itself. Their core ideology is "throw everyone who isn't white and/or a Nazi into Gas Chambers". There's no "political viewpoint" or "different opinion" there. Them just showing up is someone going "White people are your overlords and we're going to enslave/kill you all". That's not something you tolerate, ever.
Violence isn't Free Speech. They don't get to throw away the baggage of history and what Nazis stand for - Hitler and the Holocaust.
They literally show up to say that they want to hurt people. You don't even need new Hate Speech laws for that.
And anyone equating BLM to Nazis is a piece of shit. BLM's message is "Stop killing Black People for being Black". There's absolutely nothing similar about the two and they're polar fucking opposites.
Violence isn't Free Speech. They don't get to throw away the baggage of history and what Nazis stand for - Hitler and the Holocaust.
They literally show up to say that they want to hurt people. You don't even need new Hate Speech laws for that.
And anyone equating BLM to Nazis is a piece of shit. BLM's message is "Stop killing Black People for being Black". There's absolutely nothing similar about the two and they're polar fucking opposites.
It's already unacceptable, in case you weren't paying attention.
Let's stop using BLM as a cudgel.
They are not advocating for the genocide of others so comparing them to nazis gets tired and sickening
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
He didn't say that. Lots of alt-right people do seem to think that though, which I'm pretty sure was his point
BreezyLimbo
Banned
You can do that without defending the speech of Nazis or White supremacists.
Bruh, hate speech law is going to be used all over the South to shut down any civil rights movement while the KKK will still roam free.
Anyone who disagrees should be wondering why the ACLU just changed its stance on defending armed protests.
"The ACLU were right to advocate for the rally at Charlottesville, and they're also right to declare that they now won't be advocating for rallies like the one at Charlottesville."
truestatic
Member
I'm not against hate speech laws, even within the United States freedom of speech does have some boundaries and the sane determination of where those boundaries are is a conversation worth having. But I don't think you guys have hate speech laws. And until you get some that somehow play nicely with your constitutional rights, my understanding is that erosions of freedoms of speech and assembly over laws you wish were there but aren't, won't be selective.
One is a group that wants equal rights for black people and every minotiry. The other is a white supremacist group that wants to exterminate everyone that is not white. You're a complete idiot for compare the two. Moron.
Championing for documents that didn't recognize my humanity until a hundred years later isn't shit that impress me. Especially when you wield it so somebody can call me a "nigger".
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
He equated them in that terrible attempt.
What's important is reality not what the alt-right thinks, and in reality Nazis are a hate group calling for extermination of minorities and BLM are activists campaigning for proper treatment of black people.
Hierophant
Banned
No, emboldened nazis and KKK will shut down any civil rights movements by literally assaulting and killing black people on the streets
I stopped donating and supporting them until they prove that they will not defend hate speech any longer. They were vital help for the organizers of "Unite the Right" and I will not forgive them for that. I suggest anyone who feels the same redirect their donations to other organizations who call out hate without representing them legally, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center.
"To those who support suppressing propaganda they hate, we ask — where do you draw the line?"
Dumb logic is dumb.
You draw the line at the murderous people who want to destroy the things and people you stand for.
That comic is an oversimplification of society. I don't agree with that comic. It jumps quite a few steps. You can't say because Hitler happened now we have to do this. How does the intolerant end up destroying the tolerant in a society with sound, just law and a fair application of the law?
Who gets to decide what is within the boundaries to be tolerated? Are we going to start punching and killing Muslims, Baptists, Amish, Ultra-Orthodox Jews, and Atheists? Who will be considered intolerant and what is to be done with them?
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
I'm pretty sure he was making the point that lots of morons on the right make that comparison. I saw no evidence that he, himself believed it. He was making the point that BLM is a "hate group" to some fucking idiots out there, and protests of such a nature could be similarly banned if not defended
Protesting with a fire arm is legal. Yet the ACLU mysteriously decided they will stop defending people's right to do that.
It's funny because we have people defending the ACLU's decision to defend the rally when the ACLU themselves seem to regret it.
So is germany wrong for censoring nazi speech/expression?
You can't make this argument unless you're arguing that the American interpretation of a "free society" is the objective standard and we are the only ones who got it right
It starts and ends with those who believe in ethnic cleansing. Pretty clear cut imo.
Is Germany living in some dystopian censored society?
truestatic
Member
I don't think the argument is about whether or not he killed someone with words, but rather whether or not by preventing Nazis and white nationalists from gathering, marching, and speaking, we can prevent the further emboldening of people like him, and prevent further acts of hatred and terror.
And you are a complete idiot for thinking southern states aren't going to use hate speech laws to shut down anything they don't like. Who were these many other groups Trump was talking about? It's Antifa, BLM, the resistance. Anything they don't like.
But yes, even though this country has a problem with selective law enforcement against minorities, let's pass speech restrictions. Cause why would racist police and politicians use those laws against us, it's only for the Nazis.
"Kill all the Jews/Niggers" isn't offensive speech. It's an incitement of violence.
old manatee
Banned
Storming around with torches and swastikas yelling about the Jews isn't free speech.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Lots of actually functioning developed nations have hate speech laws
What part of they DO THAT ALREADY do you not understand?
Primethius
Banned
The government already sets limitations on certain kinds of speech. To put the kind of speech Nazi's propagate doesn't require much in the way of new laws or regulations. Especially when so much of Nazi speech inherently incites violence.
Citation required.
I saw protest in every part of this country against Trump. No one were shut down.
I can make this argument, because the United States is not Germany and is extraordinarily politically divided, to the point where it is assured that if further limitations on speech were permitted it would be used by one political party to obliterate or control opposition.
I'm aware that there are extremely limited exceptions to free speech. I'm comfortable with the limits we have now.
Irrelevant. They're perfectly capable of being wrong too.
This is pretty simple- once speech turns into violence, you've crossed a line. There's no hypocrisy in defending speech and prosecuting someone the moment they cross that line. There is slippery slope fallacy, however, in acting like defending free speech is defending violence.
If you want to make the argument that carrying arms to intimidate is already a form of violence and not speech, I'd be onboard with that. I just think the idea that cracking down on hate speech would prevent a man straight up murdering someone- which is already illegal- in SC is insane.
Palette Swap
Member
A court of law, backed by a law that punishes inciting to hatred or violence against protected classes.
You can hate the idea all you want but the process is pretty straightforward, it doesn't require punching or whatever fantasy you were drowning in there.
Darryl M R
Member
I don't care about your comfortability. Hate speech that promotes violence should not be protected. The US already puts restrictions on speech the incites violence.
They also have health care too.... but you know
Primethius
Banned
Right. But I'm not sure why we can't just put much of what Nazi's say under some of the categories prohibited already? They have speech that incites violence. Or if not that, they might as well be a terrorist organization.
The tools are already there in part to limit their speech.
I feel like SOMETHING should be done, nevertheless.
Protesting while armed is probably a good example, there's really not much good reason to do something like that, and maybe the efforts should be focused more on restoring reasonably accurate news coverage; it's a hell of a lot harder to pull this shit when more people are properly informed. Then there's straight up "<X group> NEEDS TO DIE" which is probably a safe type of speech to prohibit a rally around.
Did you miss every single BLM protest that was met with riot gear, chemical weapons, and tanks????
You're operating under the assumption that black political expression is not currently being marginalized and hasn't been marginalized since we fucking got here?
rokkerkory
Member
Nazis are banned in germany. Think about that.
The hate speech standard we currently use today was literally set in place by a case against the KKK, and they won the case, and it's a standard that has held up to this very year. You would, constitutionally speaking, have to move a mountain to try and ban Nazi speech. It's not gonna happen without putting all of our speech in danger.
Prior to resurgence of right wing nationalism, the left had the clarity to recognize that foreign terrorism had caused the right wing to compromise and abandon morals- indirectly handing terrorists a victory- via things like their increased desire to go to war in the middle east, the patriot act, profiling, travel bans, etc. Domestic terrorism, which is what the threats of today are, is doing the same thing to the left right now. How do you criticize the encroachment on privacy Bush's actions had- which were done in the name of public safety- and support the idea of restricting speech in the name of public safety?
This is pretty much verbatim the type of right wing excuse I heard to defend the patriot act. Comfort and moral high ground don't matter in the fact of saving lives.
Principles cost lives; you don't throw away principles once upholding them hurts. It was expected that they would hurt.
This is pretty much verbatim the type of right wing excuse I heard to defend the patriot act. Comfort and moral high ground don't matter in the fact of saving lives.
Principles cost lives; you don't throw away principles once upholding them hurts. It was expected that they would hurt.
Threats of violence and language that incites violence already fall outside the protections of "free speech," so I'm not sure what additional limitations we're discussing...?
Then you should start advocating for the repeal of 1A because SC disagrees.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/
Subpar Spatula
Banned
So you're protecting people from hate speech by not even trying to protect them?
That's a bold strategy. Let's see how that play's out. Oh wait...
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You feel hate speech is valid or nah
Otherwise what are you even arguing
And please, none of this "what even is hate speech??" We're talking about Nazi shit, white supremacy, anti-Semitism--you know, the usual
"extraordinarily politically divided"
America is dealing with grappling with it's existence as a white male supremacist structure. Say that shit for what it is. Black political expression will continue to get marginalized regardless of how our country treats Nazis.