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[JettDash]

I don't think there is anything really that can be done. I hate to say it but Bannon said it very well (though probably with some hyperbole), ”Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that 10 million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us."

I think we should should just do nothing beyond the sanctions and crap. For the reason Bannon pointed out.

Kim Jong Un is not crazy. He is evil but that is not the same thing, He wants to live, ruling NK until he dies a natural death like his father and grandfather did.

I find it very unlikely that he will use nukes unless attacked first. His number one priority is staying alive (and in charge). He must know that nuking Hawaii or Guam or whatever would result in his death.

 

[perfectchaos007]

There are no right answers

 

[liquidtmd]

There are no right answers

.

Trump is an ass and antagonizing him (Kim) isn't good. Diplomatic talk hasn't worked.

Hard, hard sanctions need to kick in but again it's very difficult.

People sadly were always going to die before this gets better. It's a question of minimalizing loss

 

[yanipheonu]

There are no right answers

And nothing would be "done".

 

[perfectchaos007]

.

Trump is an ass and antagonizing him isn't good. Diplomatic talk hasn't worked.

Hard, hard sanctions need to kick in but again it's very difficult.

People sadly were always going to die before this gets better. It's a question of minimalizing loss

And if we agree that an attack from North Korea is inevitable, then the longer they sit there building their arsenal of nukes, the more damage they'll be able to do when they decide to attack.

It's scary because their dear leader has said that if the regime falls, they will take as many other nations down with them as they possibly can.

But at the same time there's no reason for other nations to attack DPRK first. That would cost many lives today.

 

[JettDash]

And if we agree that an attack from North Korea is inevitable, then the longer they sit there building their arsenal of nukes, the more damage they'll be able to do when they decide to attack.

It's scary because their dear leader has said that if the regime falls, they will take as many other nations down with them as they possibly can.

An attack from NK is not inevitable.

Kim Jong Un doesn't want to die.

 

[jerry113]

There's no answer that doesn't include a lot of innocent people dying.

The tragedy is that either way, the NK people will suffer.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Treat them like the nuclear power they are. They won already. The sooner you accept this fact the sooner you can try to open the regime to the international community.

 

[Poppy]

nothing that wont involve letting innocent people suffer

 

[KillLaCam]

Treat them like the nuclear power they are. They won already. The sooner you accept this fact the sooner you can try to open the regime to the international community.

^

 

[aeolist]

the entire purpose of their military buildup, even discounting the nukes, has been deterrence against US aggression after we basically destroyed their entire country.

and that has been a successful strategy for them. i sincerely believe that if they didn't have artillery ready to level seoul at a moment's notice we would have re-invaded them decades ago.

they saw us work to prevent saddam and gaddafi from getting nukes. they saw that effort succeed. they saw us invade both of those countries and topple the regimes. they saw both countries descend into chaos. they learned a very sharp lesson from that.

frankly it isn't possible for them to ever trust us, and if you look at it from that perspective all of the bluster and hawkish rhetoric makes a lot of sense.

 

[emag]

the entire purpose of their military buildup, even discounting the nukes, has been deterrence against US aggression after we basically destroyed their entire country.

and that has been a successful strategy for them. i sincerely believe that if they didn't have artillery ready to level seoul at a moment's notice we would have re-invaded them decades ago.

they saw us work to prevent saddam and gaddafi from getting nukes. they saw that effort succeed. they saw us invade both of those countries and topple the regimes. they saw both countries descend into chaos. they learned a very sharp lesson from that.

frankly it isn't possible for them to ever trust us, and if you look at it from that perspective all of the bluster and hawkish rhetoric makes a lot of sense.

Excellent summary. One of the issues at play, however, is that by validating North Korea, other despots are also encouraged to develop nuclear weapons as it becomes a sure-fire way to a seat at the table. It's another case of history coming back to bite us in the ass (as you note, the Korean War and the toppling of Saddam Hussein and Moamar Gaddafi after they abandoned their nuclear programs).

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Drop millions of care packages over NK with food, K-Pop-CDs and Korean shows.

The care packages all have a big Stars and Stripes and "From the United States of America" in Korean written on it.

 

[Minus_Me]

Sign a peace treaty and end the Korean war.

 

[aeolist]

Excellent summary. One of the issues at play, however, is that by validating North Korea, other despots are also encouraged to develop nuclear weapons as it becomes a sure-fire way to a seat at the table. It's another case of history coming back to bite us in the ass (as you note, the Korean War and the toppling of Saddam Hussein and Moamar Gaddafi after they abandoned their nuclear programs).

which is really our fault because we have not historically been a credible partner in terms of keeping the peace and nuclear disarmament

there's a lot of things we could be doing to assure NK that their continued existence isn't dependent on having nukes. we could sign an actual peace treaty with them and end the war, we could make a promise that we will not attack them unless they attack us or our allies first, and (easiest of all) we could stop threatening to wipe them off the map every other week. of course it would still take a while before they might be inclined to believe we're serious since we've been doing the opposite of all that for 70 years.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

Stop treating it like an enemy. Turn a deaf ear to any warmongering.
Remove (non arms, military supply) embargo's. Have worldwide governments stimulate trade with NK.
This will improve countrys wealth and consciousness of it's population, create an increasing middle class, which will eventually lead to pushing for democracy.
Change can only come from within.

 

[AmyS]

 

[daxy]

Recognize that the world does not bend around your will. Then, help drive sustainable change in its regime to the benefit of its citizens by exercising soft power with allies in the region over the course of many years and by progressively increasing trade (hopefully also mobility) to facilitate the exchange of experiences and knowledge among its people.

 

[tearsintherain]

Wait for dear leader to die, hope someone more sane replaces him, hope nothing crazy happens between now and then.

Until China shows interest in changing North Korea, the rest of the world really doesn't have many options other than give the country some stuff (aid, etc) which will 99% go to favored murderers in the regime or completely isolate the country which isn't going to be that different either.

Stop treating it like an enemy. Turn a deaf ear to any warmongering.
Remove (non arms, military supply) embargo's. Have worldwide governments stimulate trade with NK.
This will improve countrys wealth and consciousness of it's population, create an increasing middle class, which will eventually lead to pushing for democracy.
Change can only come from within.

Dictators don't give a shit about how their people are treated and giving them anything that lets them think the outside world is better than their world is anathema. Saddam Hussein, Moamar Qaddafi, and and Mubarak have shown Kim Jong Un that there is absolutely zero way he survives a country that has normal relations with the rest of the world.

 

[jotun?]

Send in ninjas

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Send in 20 good men.

 

[nampad]

Just hope that they will cool down when they finally have their mutually assured destruction weapons.

The Kims just want to stay in power and with ICBMs they should feel safe enough from foreign threats. Will be really interesting what they will do then though, especially with all the money they don't need to funnel into the nuclear program anymore.

 

[rokkerkory]

NK mission of regime change was successful.

For Jun Un that is lol

 

[Merchandise]

Accept that they have nukes and go from there.

U.S. position has always been "it is unacceptable that they have nukes, we won't talk until they get rid of them." That's not going to happen.

 

[giant_frying_pan]

How do you solve a problem like...Korea...?

 

[TaterTots]

It's odd. I was not a fan of such a mad man having nuclear capabilities, now my country has a mad man at the helm. Neither should be in power of anything imo. I don't know how to fix the NK issue because sanctions have not worked in the past and they aren't going to trade their precious WMD's. Eventually, either the leader of NK or the U.S. will say enough is enough and take some form of action, rather if its our generation or the next. I'd say its inevitable.

 

[Dopus]

It's odd. I was not a fan of such a mad man having nuclear capabilities, now my country has a mad man at the helm. Neither should be in power of anything imo. I don't know how to fix the NK issue because sanctions have not worked in the past and they aren't going to trade their precious WMD's. Eventually, either the leader of NK or the U.S. will say enough is enough and take some form of action, rather if its our generation or the next. I'd say its inevitable.

It's more likely that the United States will "say enough is enough and take some form of action". As is always the case with such a monstrosity.

 

[JettDash]

It's more likely that the United States will "say enough is enough and take some form of action". As is always the case with such a monstrosity.

If so, the US is the irrational actor, not NK.

 

[Bedameister]

There are no right answers

This is unfortunately true I think.

 

[And_Gignac]

the entire purpose of their military buildup, even discounting the nukes, has been deterrence against US aggression after we basically destroyed their entire country.

and that has been a successful strategy for them. i sincerely believe that if they didn't have artillery ready to level seoul at a moment's notice we would have re-invaded them decades ago.

they saw us work to prevent saddam and gaddafi from getting nukes. they saw that effort succeed. they saw us invade both of those countries and topple the regimes. they saw both countries descend into chaos. they learned a very sharp lesson from that.

frankly it isn't possible for them to ever trust us, and if you look at it from that perspective all of the bluster and hawkish rhetoric makes a lot of sense.

All of this.

The US has hardly saved any country from misfortune. Everytime the US intervenes in a country, the people of such countries end up in a worse position. Just stop. Go home.

 

[Nipo]

If so, the US is the irrational actor, not NK.

Actually that would almost perfectly align with neo realist ir theory... Why would you classify it as irrational?

 

[Torquill]

You do the hard work. A slow, painstaking, methodical undermining of the cult of personality. Not too fast, must be very gradua. Cold War 2.

 

[Gastone]

Full blown invasion. Bring McDonalds and democracy to them.

 

[JordanN]

My problem with North Korea has never actually been going to war with them. It's how do you maintain political stability when Kim is gone?

We've seen time and time again, you can't just kill "x" dictator and rainbows and sunshine will magically appear.

There will always be one hell of a power vacuum which either leads to another dictator seizing power, or the country falls into civil war until the citizens get a another one.

I like the idea of just helping North Korea modernize. When enough North Korean citizens are lifted out of poverty, they can use their wealth to become more vocal and demand change from inside the country. Kim would be forced to pass more reforms until the country becomes a lite dictatorship or the nation turns into a parliamentary monarchy. Kim is still king but there's also a president with equal power.

 

[JettDash]

Full blown invasion. Bring McDonalds and democracy to them.

Are you willing to die for this?

My problem with North Korea has never actually been going to war with them. It's how do you maintain political stability when Kim is gone?

We've seen time and time again, you can't just kill "x" dictator and rainbows and sunshine will magically appear.

There will always be one hell of a power vacuum which either leads to another dictator seizing power, or the country falls into civil war until the citizens get a another one.

I like the idea of just helping North Korea modernize. When enough North Korean citizens are lifted out of poverty, they can use their wealth to become more vocal and demand change from inside the country. Kim would be forced to pass more reforms until the country becomes a lite dictatorship or the nation turns into a parliamentary monarchy. Kim is still king but there's also a president with equal power.

Well said. +1

 

[smurfx]

only thing that can probably be done is bribe the generals to betray kim jong un and then take over as another dictatorship. of course china would have to sign off on this as they would take out any puppet regime put into place by the west.

 

[JettDash]

Actually that would almost perfectly align with neo realist ir theory... Why would you classify it as irrational?

Because NK is very little threat to the US and the US attacking the NK would likely result in many Americans dead. And Koreans. Both North and South.

 

[Dingens]

.

Trump is an ass and antagonizing him (Kim) isn't good. Diplomatic talk hasn't worked.

Hard, hard sanctions need to kick in but again it's very difficult.

People sadly were always going to die before this gets better. It's a question of minimalizing loss

Actually... Diplomacy made some progress - until Bush lumped them in with Irak and Afghanistan as part of the Axis of Evil which put them into panic mode overdrive. Read up on the "Sunshine policy". It was quite interesting.
So what can be done? I'd say start developing economical ties with them. The closer you tie them the less they'll be able to move and as there society grows richer, the weaker the regime will become. There have been quite a few interesting changes since Kim Jong Un took over, predominantly the establishment of something like an urban middle class.
If this development continues (without putting them back on the edge again), the problem may actually solve itself over time.

Another possibility would be to follow Spain's example where Franco the dictator was allowed to step down voluntarily and go unpunished as a "reward". Nowadays this would be political suicide obviously, since anyone who'd propose something like that would be lynched by media and voters alike. Still it seems somewhat doable.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Deterrence. Containment.

Like every other nuclear power.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

.

Trump is an ass and antagonizing him (Kim) isn't good. Diplomatic talk hasn't worked.

Hard, hard sanctions need to kick in but again it's very difficult.

People sadly were always going to die before this gets better. It's a question of minimalizing loss

There's a pretty good circumstantial evidence there was some diplomacy played a part in reducing current tensions.

The Koreans said we don't like the B1s in their statements. They also said that this gives them the right to shoot missiles towards guam.

The US didn't fly any B1s. Kim passes on firing at guam but says he'll be watching next weeks war drills.

The US says they'll be less troops and changes in what will be practiced.

Clear signaling

 

[JettDash]

only thing that can probably be done is bribe the generals to betray kim jong un and then take over as another dictatorship. of course china would have to sign off on this as they would take out any puppet regime put into place by the west.

Why would that benefit the US and the world in general?

Kim Jong Un is not a crazy person. He is rational and his goal is to stay in power. I don't know why people don't understand this.

 

[Draper]

Let's consult the nuclear zone

 

[Rival]

I'm not sure what the answer is for NK but it's not Trump that's for sure.

 

[spons]

I don't know how to do it, but bring back Kim Il-sung from the dead. His infinitely less detestable persona, his charisma and leadership must provide a solution. His son royally goofed up.

 

[Coriolanus]

Why would that benefit the US and the world in general?

Kim Jong Un is not a crazy person. He is rational and his goal is to stay in power. I don't know why people don't understand this.

Even smart people can fall prey to propaganda. Kim is a horrible bastard, yes, but he clearly isn't a raving madman, nor an idiot, and yet nearly every thread on the subject will have a few posters thinking that NK leadership b unstable and cray cray.

 

[Hektor]

Here's the plan:

Phase 1: We establish trade relations and a non-aggression pact with NK

Phase 2: We fund Anti-American terrorist cells in Asia

Phase 3: We blame the surge of terror on the South Korean government.

Phase 4: We slowly but consistently let relationships with SK detoriate.until they become aggressive in nature

Phase 5: We broaden our non-aggression pact with NK into a defensive alliance with NK, Russia and China.

Phase 6: We start posing and provoce SK

Phase 7: We move Units from the US-Military and the EU-Joint-Army to NK to strenghten their defense against a South Korean invasion

Phase 8: Order 66

 

[JettDash]

Kim Jong Un has actually done some market reforms. For example, farmers are allowed to keep most of their crops and sell them.

Not saying he isn't evil but it seems clear to me that he is a rational actor. NK obtaining nukes is not the end of the world.

 

[carlsojo]

Invade, unfortunately.

 

[JettDash]

Invade, unfortunately.

Are you willing to die to invade NK?

 

[carlsojo]

Are you willing to die to invade NK?

I don't know.