The Hermit
Member
2D Mario? The music
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What Mario can learn from Mania
- Thread starter Mr.Fletcher
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ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Sonic Mania's levels are pretty good. Better than the recent 2D Mario games.
Captain Europe
Member
OP was talking specifically about 2D Mario, I know 3D Mario is exceptionally good and brings fresh ideas with each instalment. But this isn't about the 3D games. The 2D games are rather lacklustre and samey IMO, regardless of how much they sell. They just do enough to be good and that's it, it's super safe. 2D Mario should be exceptionally good, just like 3D Mario, or other 2D series such as DK, Rayman and now Sonic Mania. As it stands now, he's the king of 3D platformers, but definitely not the king of 2D anymore.
I hope SMM was the celebration of 2D Mario up till now, and that they take more risks with the series from here on out. Just shake things up a bit, add more characters with their own abilities, online, fantastic music(Grant Kirkhope plz), different themes(hell they could take inspiration from other Mario games(space, cake, etc). And an art style like the official 2D art would do wonders.
Sonic Mania was a hell of a lot more exciting than recent NSMB games. I enjoy the NSMB games, but never replayed one, already 100%ed Sonic Mania with all characters. I'd love to be excited for a 2D Mario in the way I was for Sonic Mania.
And FFS, it's Mario, he SHOULD be the king of 2D platformers, Nintendo needs to step up.
Toadthemushroom
Member
This strikes me as an odd comparison, since both platforming series are very different.
Comparing the level design across series is probably a better aim (e.g. Sonic Mania Vs the games it apes). As for 2D Mario, I thought NSMB U had superb level design around the NSMB mechanics, which aren't comparable to the 90's games. Mario Maker for 3DS has excellent levels as well.
The problem with 2D Mario is that it never really feels like Nintendo is putting their full weight behind it. Mario Maker was a step in the right direction at least.
TwistedFreeze
Member
You raise good points, OP. Despite all of the NSMB games being having good to great level design, they never really evolved much from entry to entry and the presentation and soundtrack always tended to leave a lot to be desired. However, the last thing 2D Mario needs to do is lean from the past as that's what it has mostly done for a while now. Sonic had to do that as that's the last time the series was consistently good. What Mario needs to do is look forward, evolve, and change, like the 3D Mario games always do. Every generation, Nintendo goes with a different aesthetic, soundtrack, gimmicks, and areas/levels, from 64 to Odyssey. The 2D Mario games need the same kind of ingenuity and love that the 3D Mario games get
What are y'all like this? You guys are losing your minds over Sonic Mania. The game is good, but 2D Mario game need to learn nothing from it. Even in 2D, Nintendo has successfully reinvented Mario as a 2D platformer without issue. When they implemented 2D segments to the 3D games like in Galaxy, it was also done with great respect to the 2D counterparts physics and design. 3D World is also the answer to the question of what if Nintendo tried to faithfully translate the underpinnings of Super Mario Bros. 1-3 to a 3D space. Sonic Mania isn't nearly as ambitious, just a retread of the Genesis games.
Eh, they're great games just as Mania is. But Mania has better visuals and music so yeah, IMO it's indeed better.
Not that crazy of a statement either, to be honest.
It most definitely is imo. Those games straight up turned me off Mario.
Going to quote myself here for the new page because I want an answer to this question :
Pure level design isn't the only thing that matters. The NSMB games look sterile and uninspired next to Sonic Mania.
Agreed
Captain Europe
Member
NSMBU = quantity
Sonic Mania = quality
I'd rather have the second one. It beats it in music, level design, art style and it has way more creative bosses. The only thing NSMBU beats Sonic Mania in is the amount of levels.
Hell, there are Mario fan projects way more ambitious than the NSMB series, maybe Nintendo should just take a page out of Sega's book and hire some ambitious fans.
Sonic Mania shits all over any of the New Super Mario games. Not even a contest tbqh.
First great Sonic game since the great depression, and all of a sudden Mario needs to learn from Sonic. I'll agree that 2D Mario would benefit from spicing it up, sure. But 3D Mario is best of the best. I'd be more concerned about the next Sonic outing than the next Mario. Can they keep it up? Can they improve? Can they remain fresh? And can they translate it to 3D?
Sonic Mania is basically Sonic's second attempt at a NSMB-like throwback, so I'm not sure what Mario is supposed to learn here if he already did the whole "going back to the originals" stuff first. If anything, 2D Mario's greatest failing right now is that it became too reliant on nostalgia, which Sonic Mania strives on. It was the right move for Sonic considering the state the franchise was in, but Mario needs to go the exact opposite direction and try some wildly new things.
If we're just going with more superficial aspects like "have better music and aesthetics" then, well, sure. People have been complaining about NSMB's soundtrack and visuals long before Mania was a thing.
If we're just going with more superficial aspects like "have better music and aesthetics" then, well, sure. People have been complaining about NSMB's soundtrack and visuals long before Mania was a thing.
Captain Europe
Member
Does it even matter that it's the first great Sonic game in ages? It just means Sega stepped up their game, and now we wait and see if Nintendo is gonna do that with 2D Mario.
Sonic Mania looks like a 2D Sonic game from the 90s. I don't feel inspire looking at it no more than seeing Mega Man 9 and 10.
well, Sonic Mania is a lot better than any of the comparable Mario games, so that makes sense.
Why should they? They're capable themselves, unlike Sega that struggle to make a great 2D Sonic game. Even then, Sonic Mania is still a retro, throwback game, which isn't something Mario needs.
IronicSonic
Member
Make a thread
for insecure Mario supporters lol
Toadthemushroom
Member
This isn't really true - they happily hand any IP they are finished developing internally to external studios:
Wario - went to Good-Feel, Treasure and Susak
Yoshi - went to Artoon and Arzest/Imageepoch
F-Zero - went to Amusement Vision
Star Fox - went to Namco on GameCube
and so on...
Sojiro
Member
This is the biggest thing new 2D Mario games need to take away from Sonic Mania. Give me great music to listen to while I play. I crank up the volume when playing Mania because it's so damn gloriously good, and it really adds to the experience.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Nails it.
Dark Cloud
Member
They have good music. Nintendo cheaped out on the music and visuals with the New series. They're done with that series.
Gamecocks625
Member
This
nsmb isnt remotely interesting and is the one thing holding back super mario maker
Well, we beg to differ.
I think the best 2D Mario game ever is New Super Mario Bros WiiU.
Until that game came out I never thought it could be possible but it happened! SMB3 no longer the king (unless pink googles)
This is true, but the thing is that Sonic happened to nail it 100% with Mania, it pretty much pleases all fans that are interested in that kind of game, while Mario, despite having great and well designed games, is constantly criticized for its visual style and music, and it sucks because the games do so well that it's unlikely Nintendo will ever feel the need to put effort in those fronts.
It took Sonic decades to nail it but now that it did, it's fantastic. Mario nailed it first try with good games that look and sound like cheap, generic crap and hasn't changed ever since.
Those "New" games that look like they cost 20 cents to make could probably learn a thing or two about audiovisual presentation.
nightopian
Member
I always despised the "New" series of MARIO games. No character and bad music. Wish it never happened. A new 2D Mario in the spirit of SMW would be very welcome.
Yeah, I forgot to type fan.
Gamecocks625
Member
Wait, now we want Mario to deevolve? Mania is great, but it's basically old Sonic with new mechanics. Mario is going into a different direction, and that's ok.
Honestly there is nothing I'd take from Mania except inspiration for a possible throwback game. But moving the series forward? Nah.
Honestly there is nothing I'd take from Mania except inspiration for a possible throwback game. But moving the series forward? Nah.
Considering Nintendo has released at least two of the best platformers ever created in the past decade and only continue to innovate with the Mario series... they're the last company that need to be learning from other platformers honestly. Only thing I'll agree with is the art style for the nsmb series need to go.
If NSMB never happened we may have seen less 2D platformers from Nintendo all across the board. It was a pretty significant release.
From a game remixing 25 year old stages?
Feel like im going crazy, NSMB is not ambitious but neither is a 20$ revival game, 2D Mario should strive to be more like the DKC series but i don't think is happening, they will probably keep making Mario Maker games.
NSMB looks like it was conceptualized in an exec board meeting tasked with making the safest, most inoffensive Mario platformer possible. I'd much rather have something with a presentation that tries to emulate the glory days of 2D Mario than NSMB.
Sojiro
Member
Yeah I probably should have been more clear, I meant the "New" series. It really sucks because the games are mostly awesome, but the music really leaves a lot to want for.
Captain Europe
Member
It's truly puzzling to me, because it seems they are very willing to experiment with 3D Mario, and their other 2D platformers like DK, Yoshi and Kirby.
I wonder if it's because they're afraid they'll change something and the casuals won't like it, since it sells so well. Or maybe it's just a matter of keeping the production as cheap as possible.
It's 2d sonic but worse. Trying to one up the originals, ending completely convoluted wich make first playthrough even more of a chore but still not challenging, you get hit, get your rings back and here we go with new mechanics variations of bouncing through the screen until we eventually reach the boss.
Also it keeps the serie in its nostalgia and fan appeasing problem since generations, even worse when the modern new game is shaping badly and continue the future/past sonic bloat.
Also it keeps the serie in its nostalgia and fan appeasing problem since generations, even worse when the modern new game is shaping badly and continue the future/past sonic bloat.
Imagine a real Super Mario World 3 with high production values and a new art style... it would be amazing.
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