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Monolith Soft Executive Producer (Hirohide Sugiura) On Going From Namco To Nintendo

Mael

Member
There's no special case regarding Game Freak. They're a 100% independent developer that's free to work on any system they want, and have been trying to more of that this gen. They just happen to be, along with HAL and IntSys, the most visible success of Nintendo fostering tight third party ties without having to buy them out.

All companies not directly owned by Nintendo is 3rd party and the other are internal studios anyway.
HAL and IntSys (and Gamefreak too I guess) have such strong ties for literal decades that it's for anyone to see them not working with Nintendo. I would wager that it's probably even harder for them to see it than for us. I mean HAL and IntSys are in Nintendo's VG venture since nearly the beginning after all.
Nintendo work well with them as they're rather close in corp structure and geographically.
I guess buying them outright makes literally no sense.
 

Mael

Member
That doesn't mean it was profitable though.Developments costs (for both Xenoblade titles) must have been very high when compared to other Nintendo first party projects.

Nah, it's a Wii game after all.
If they're efficient they might have made their money back on Jpn sales alone (projections would have been made accordingly).
If XenoX was profitable on WiiU, no way XenoW wasn't.

Playtonic is not SNES/N64 RARE, very very far from it actually.
Playtonic needs the multi plat and Nintendo doesn't really add much by having exclusive games from them. They don't have any IPs worth a damn which means talent can just leave and you have a whole bunch of nothing.

they wouldn't need multiplat because they would be paid for the devs regardless of how much it sells.
Platinium made money on W101, Nintendo certainly took a bath on it however.
 
I mean I'd argue that they've had far more positive treatment under nintendo's support both in Rare and during Playtonic.

Not to mention it's like Goldeneye, the DKC games, and the Banjo-Kazooie games never existed or something and were huge hits. Hell even Star Fox Adventures did very well and was quickly a Player's Choice game.
 
I wonder if Monilith will be big enough to handle more than one huge project at a time under Nintendo instead of just a large project and supplementary support on other Nintendo games.
 

Ridley327

Member
I wonder if Monilith will be big enough to handle more than one huge project at a time under Nintendo instead of just a large project and supplementary support on other Nintendo games.

It looks like that they're already in pre-production on their next game, though I would have to imagine that the amount of staff on Xenoblade 2 right now is nowhere near full capacity, as they're in the polishing stage. That being said, with the size games that Monolith Soft makes, I don't think it really helps their development strategies to just double their numbers in the hopes that it means we get more large-sized games from them. Xenoblade X aside, and that was largely due to the foundations they had to build that's been paying off only now, they're a really consistent studio as it is in terms of their frequency of output, especially for the scale of games that they work on, so I don't see them particularly benefitting from a massive expansion.
 

jj984jj

He's a pretty swell guy in my books anyway.
That need for polish is why I want Takahashi to give his six episode epic another shot at Nintendo. We might actually see it get completed that way.

Which is why I was hoping XBX would get a sequel. Doesn't seem like it'll happen if the fantasy action game is Takahashi's project. I am starting to wondering if he'll make any continuous story under Nintendo. I hope he does even if I'd probably still get his games either way.

Yeah agreed. They need to buy just a few more big developers. They have the money.

Throwing money at things doesn't really sound like a good idea. Monolith was a right place, right time sort of thing.

Critically for sure but financially? Sadly i'm not so sure that it has been profitable enough for Nintendo.

Monolith's Kyoto studio being a support studio is what makes up for their Tokyo studio not always being able to help, and Tokyo can still help with stuff like world design on bigger projects like Breath of the Wild.

Nintendo wouldn't stop them from working for other publishers as NamcoXwhatever showed.

Yoko Taro and Square wouldn't make a new Nier with a developer that prevents multiplatform development. Nintendo would not let Platinum work on PS4/PC/XBO games.
 

Eusis

Member
That need for polish is why I want Takahashi to give his six episode epic another shot at Nintendo. We might actually see it get completed that way.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's an idea that works better at a lower scale, namely 32-bit era scale. Though I guess the DS and maybe 3DS were a fresh chance at that, but good luck with cart prices... which they're stuck with now but at least digital is a far bigger deal on Switch than 3DS.
 
The reason Nintendo would "need" to buy other dev houses would be to get a presence in these countries.
i mean Nintendo's France presence is NERD which is very small.
Nintendo absolutely need to have a bigger presence in Industry's hubs like Canada or northern Europe.
If only to have more people in these countries that have connections with their company and force Nintendo to be better at providing dev kits.

Mercury Steam would certainly not be bad for Nintendo for example.



Nah, if they landed these projects they wouldn't have been cut off from working with other companies, Monolith still work occasionally with Namco.
Heck GameFreak while a special case still can do whatever the hell they want.

I think it will be interesting to see if Mercury Steam has another Nintendo project in the works if Metroid does well on the 3DS. It appears it's going to review well based on the impressions we've gotten, and I like to think it will at least sell decently. I could see more collabs in the future like they do with Next Level Games, but not sure they would buy them.
 

Mael

Member
Yoko Taro and Square wouldn't make a new Nier with a developer that prevents multiplatform development. Nintendo would not let Platinum work on PS4/PC/XBO games.

If a partnership can be made they absolutely would have, worked for Bayo2 after all.
And they wouldn't have needed to work on Nier to begin with as their fortunes wouldn't be linked to finding external projects anyway.

I think it will be interesting to see if Mercury Steam has another Nintendo project in the works if Metroid does well on the 3DS. It appears it's going to review well based on the impressions we've gotten, and I like to think it will at least sell decently. I could see more collabs in the future like they do with Next Level Games, but not sure they would buy them.

i would push for a buyout if only to have a permanent foothold in the EU.
 

DMONKUMA

Junior Member
I think it will be interesting to see if Mercury Steam has another Nintendo project in the works if Metroid does well on the 3DS. It appears it's going to review well based on the impressions we've gotten, and I like to think it will at least sell decently. I could see more collabs in the future like they do with Next Level Games, but not sure they would buy them.

IIRC they had two prototypes Metroid prototypes/or pitches for 3DS and Wii U. Since we are actually getting a 3DS title they could possibly be making another Metroid title for the Switch since nothing came out of the Wii U one .....of course It's speculation and all. Someone did mention there is another Metroid game for the Switch that isn't prime 4.
 
The xenoblade games were all mid tier developed games they haven't actually cost that much to make

Yea, people seem to think the Xeno games had AAA budgets, but there have been quotes that isn't the case. People also have to remember that Monolithsoft does a lot of asset work for a variety of Nintendo's other studios.

Another thing to remember is that Monolithsoft if filling a void in Nintendo's catalog by releasing First Party JRPG's. That has value to Nintendo as a platform holder. I'd be surprised if Nintendo was not happy with the purchase of Monolithsoft.
 

Terrell

Member
They have no interest in purchasing developers. Talent leaves and you're left with the name, and nothing more. Better to partner with developers to create exclusives than to own them.

He says without irony in a thread that proves all the points being made wrong. Never mind that Nintendo has consistently contradicted this idea that they have "no interest" in acquisitions since 2006 when the Monolith acquisition occurred. An aversion to acquisition hasn't been a thing since Yamauchi made a play to purchase Bandai WAY back in the day.
 
He says without irony in a thread that proves all the points being made wrong.

Yea, I don't think it's that they don't want to buy any Developers, but they are also smart about it and realize it has to make sense for both them and the Development Studio. If the Development Studio isn't completely on board with the purchase, then it's probably not a good move as the talent could end up leaving. This is a perfect example where both Nintendo wanted to purchase the studio, and the studio was on board with the purchase and it seems it has worked out well.
 

jj984jj

He's a pretty swell guy in my books anyway.
If a partnership can be made they absolutely would have, worked for Bayo2 after all.
And they wouldn't have needed to work on Nier to begin with as their fortunes wouldn't be linked to finding external projects anyway.
Bayonetta worked because Sega was ready to shelve it, if Square Enix really needs to they will get another developer for Nier. I'd rather they not, but Nintendo buying Platinum will force them to so they have control over the platforms. I don't see them making it Switch exclusive.
 
It's less about buying studios and should be more on expanding the great studios you have. If you have great thinkers who want bigger roles then expand the studios and let them lead on their projects. Plus it gives you more output of games.
 

Mael

Member
Bayonetta worked because Sega was ready to shelve it, if Square Enix really needs to they will get another developer for Nier. I'd rather they not, but Nintendo buying Platinum will force them to so they have control over the platforms. I don't see them making it Switch exclusive.

If we're talking platforms as long as they don't force it on mobile, there's no platforms out there where the compromise made won't be similar in nature.
They all have similar inputs and the constraints are just a matter or crunching numbers, if MSFT got the contract and pushed it as the start of the big XbX initiative it could have had a big success too for all we know.
For a company like Platinium, it's great because it pays the bills and make them appealing for other publishers in need of a dev house for hire.
Under Nintendo (or any other publishers) they wouldn't need that.
Then again does Platinium even makes sense as a dev house under a publisher?
It's a former Capcom studio after all. Might as well disband and work for a dev house that's having success :/

You know well Monolith is an exception to the rule.

Not really, Monolith IS the rule actually.
They buy when it makes sense.
that's why they bought mobiclip to make NERD after all.
 

Terrell

Member
Yea, I don't think it's that they don't want to buy any Developers, but they are also smart about it and realize it has to make sense for both them and the Development Studio. If the Development Studio isn't completely on board with the purchase, then it's probably not a good move as the talent could end up leaving. This is a perfect example where both Nintendo wanted to purchase the studio, and the studio was on board with the purchase and it seems it has worked out well.

Yep, I understand their typical conditions. But this idea that such conditions could never possibly be achieved again is rather silly, especially in Japan, where Nintendo is a heavily respected company with a well-known positive work culture among industry professionals, which if you haven't been paying attention to the Japanese video game industry isn't a common thing. So some developers, if given the opportunity, might jump at the chance to be considered, if only the offer were put on the table.

You know well Monolith is an exception to the rule.

I know well enough to know that Monolith Soft wasn't some serendipitous once-in-a-lifetime miracle that it's made out to be.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Do you know what is the best acquisition Nintendo can make?

Global presence, establishing international branches for expanding and supporting developing countries.

Not this studio acquisition nonsense that in the long run won't help (thankfully they aren't doing it).

Meh

Namco.
 

Ridley327

Member
Yep, I understand their typical conditions. But this idea that such conditions could never possibly be achieved again is rather silly, especially in Japan, where Nintendo is a heavily respected company with a well-known positive work culture among industry professionals, which if you haven't been paying attention to the Japanese video game industry isn't a common thing. So some developers, if given the opportunity, might jump at the chance to be considered, if only the offer were put on the table.
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but who is really left for Japanese third party developers at this point that haven't already been picked up by a larger company or don't already have a long-term relationship developing on Nintendo systems? Platinum is the only one that comes to mind right away, but they already have a pretty steady slate that they're working on right now for there to be a conversation, and one of them is assuredly a Nintendo project as it is.
 
Not really, Monolith IS the rule actually.
They buy when it makes sense.
that's why they bought mobiclip to make NERD after all.

Exactly. I don't think Nintendo is necessarily against buying studios, but it HAS to make sense for both and they realize that. They won't just go and start throwing money at every studio that they could potentially buy. I'm sure they would have numerous talks and make sure it would be a good fit for both Nintendo and the studio. In the end, if it makes sense and both are happy and onboard then they would make the purchase.

How often that would happen though? Probably not often, but I don't see any reason to believe they are against purchasing new studio's if it fits Nintendo's vision and the studio's vision.

Edit:
Yep, I understand their typical conditions. But this idea that such conditions could never possibly be achieved again is rather silly, especially in Japan, where Nintendo is a heavily respected company with a well-known positive work culture among industry professionals, which if you haven't been paying attention to the Japanese video game industry isn't a common thing. So some developers, if given the opportunity, might jump at the chance to be considered, if only the offer were put on the table.

Couldn't agree more.
 

Terrell

Member
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but who is really left for Japanese third party developers at this point that haven't already been picked up by a larger company or don't already have a long-term relationship developing on Nintendo systems? Platinum is the only one that comes to mind right away, but they already have a pretty steady slate that they're working on right now for there to be a conversation, and one of them is assuredly a Nintendo project as it is.

We'll find out in the next 5-10 years, won't we?
 

Instro

Member
Nintendo's western presence is the real issue. They let Rare go foolishly, let Factor 5 go under, and have failed to expand NST and Retro in any significant manner. Next Level should have been bought, and it and Retro should be much larger studios by now. Acquisitions in Japan don't seem needed at this stage. Cing should have been an obvious one though.
 

Datschge

Member
Sugiura said:
”When Monolith Soft was established, it was actually Namco founder Masaya Nakamura who took great care of us. Nakamura-san's thoughts on creation was very relatable, he treated us well, and talked to us about all kinds of things. After his retirement, there was a new atmosphere—which is a given, but I felt there was a change from Nakamura-san's grand ideas."
It's interesting he specifically name dropped Masaya Nakamura as he already retired in 2002, so only Xenosaga 1 happened in that time. E.g. the Baten Kaitos games were in collaboration with tri-Crescendo which to this day works together with Bandai Namco. I guess Disaster: Day of Crisis is the game that best showcased the newfound freedom to make something original with an independent spirit after Nintendo took the over.

Nintendo's western presence is the real issue. They let Rare go foolishly, let Factor 5 go under, and have failed to expand NST and Retro in any significant manner. Next Level should have been bought, and it and Retro should be much larger studios by now. Acquisitions in Japan don't seem needed at this stage. Cing should have been an obvious one though.
Isn't their staff in plenty flux as well? It seem Nintendo prefers to invest into stable environments where the human knowledge stays, and while serviceable both NST and Retro still seem like typical Western working places with people coming and going.
 
It's was great for both parties but I still don't understand why Nintendo recruited so few teams in the Wii era. They could have had many talented teams join their ranks when the Wii was hot fire. Like why didn't they bother acquiring any western studios to fill their gaps in the genres they were weakest in? It's not so much a problem now that they have combined their development with the Switch but imagine.
 

SalvaPot

Member
Yep, I understand their typical conditions. But this idea that such conditions could never possibly be achieved again is rather silly, especially in Japan, where Nintendo is a heavily respected company with a well-known positive work culture among industry professionals, which if you haven't been paying attention to the Japanese video game industry isn't a common thing. So some developers, if given the opportunity, might jump at the chance to be considered, if only the offer were put on the table.



I know well enough to know that Monolith Soft wasn't some serendipitous once-in-a-lifetime miracle that it's made out to be.

Sure, we may be generalizing for the purpose of the arguments, but what I meant to say is that outright buying companies has no guarantee of having you keep the talent or the same work quality the company used to have.

The industry is going with partnerships more nowadays because companies want the freedom to do what they want to make. In the case of Monolith, it worked, but look at Rare, or all the companies that EA bought to later kill, or the companies that Microsoft bought to farm out their I.P's and had to end up releasing the games also on Windows to manage the costs.

The argument is Nintendo doesn't NEED to buy a company to make great games with them. They published Bayo 2, they helped Bomberman Switch happen.
 
Nintendo's western presence is the real issue. They let Rare go foolishly, let Factor 5 go under, and have failed to expand NST and Retro in any significant manner. Next Level should have been bought, and it and Retro should be much larger studios by now. Acquisitions in Japan don't seem needed at this stage. Cing should have been an obvious one though.
I'm still baffled that we don't know what Retro is working on.
 

Wedzi

Banned
Do you feel any kind of “change” since becoming a Nintendo subsidiary?

Sugiura: “That would be a ‘change in consciousness.’ If the content isn’t good enough then Nintendo won’t green-light the commercialization, and that’s a hurdle we naturally raised on our own. Everyone had the level of consciousness that asked ‘is the quality good enough like that?’ and I believe it was quite a change from the time Monolith Soft first started. And this change in the level of consciousness was made possible thanks to the environment provided from being a subsidiary of Nintendo. Looking at it in an administrative point of view, the most important thing is finding the right balance.”

963426-nintendoseal.png
 

Datschge

Member
That thread makes me wish Nintendo had bought Baten Kaitos too.
Should have worked more with tri-Crescendo then. Now tri-Crescendo works as support for Bandai Namco while the Monolith half of Baten Kaitos resides in Kyoto as support for Nintendo.
 

Ridley327

Member
Nintendo's western presence is the real issue. They let Rare go foolishly, let Factor 5 go under, and have failed to expand NST and Retro in any significant manner. Next Level should have been bought, and it and Retro should be much larger studios by now. Acquisitions in Japan don't seem needed at this stage. Cing should have been an obvious one though.

They didn't let Rare go. Like all of their other third party collaborations, they preferred that environment for the studio than owning them outright, so the Stampers sold their majority stake to whoever was interested. What could Nintendo have done other than sell their minority stake?
 
They didn't let Rare go. Like all of their other third party collaborations, they preferred that environment for the studio than owning them outright, so the Stampers sold their majority stake to whoever was interested. What could Nintendo have done other than sell their minority stake?

Not to mention that Nintendo did at one point plan to buy RARE wholesale. The problem, however, was that both Activision and Microsoft got in on the bidding game. When MS came up with their humongous bid of $375 million, it didn't make sense for Nintendo to buy them anymore at the time. (what you need to keep in mind here is that we're talkin' about Gamecube era Nintendo that could have never justified trying to outbid Microsoft to its own investors).
 

Instro

Member
They didn't let Rare go. Like all of their other third party collaborations, they preferred that environment for the studio than owning them outright, so the Stampers sold their majority stake to whoever was interested. What could Nintendo have done other than sell their minority stake?

The Stampers wanted Nintendo to purchase the company outright, and own them fully, Nintendo didn't want to, and thus MS stepped in.
 
He says without irony in a thread that proves all the points being made wrong. Never mind that Nintendo has consistently contradicted this idea that they have "no interest" in acquisitions since 2006 when the Monolith acquisition occurred. An aversion to acquisition hasn't been a thing since Yamauchi made a play to purchase Bandai WAY back in the day.

I'm not sure what you mean really. He was pretty much just repeating what Iwata used to say about the subject.
 
Nintendo's western presence is the real issue. They let Rare go foolishly, let Factor 5 go under, and have failed to expand NST and Retro in any significant manner. Next Level should have been bought, and it and Retro should be much larger studios by now. Acquisitions in Japan don't seem needed at this stage. Cing should have been an obvious one though.
Nintendo had nothing to do with Factor 5. Nintendo didn’t own any of Factor 5, they didn’t have any exclusivity deal with them. They liked working with Factor 5, and Factor 5 liked working with them, but there was no official partnership. Eventually Factor 5 chose to work with PS3 instead of Nintendo platforms, they made a terrible game, and then went out of business when the next project they were working on, that they had bet the company on, fell through (because the publisher went out of business).
 

Terrell

Member
Sure, we may be generalizing for the purpose of the arguments, but what I meant to say is that outright buying companies has no guarantee of having you keep the talent or the same work quality the company used to have.

You're right, there is no guarantee. But if you're willing to put in the legwork to get the staff on-board with such an arrangement, it works out pretty damn well and mitigates/removes that pitfall. You can't just decide to do it and make it happen (which is why it doesn't work for most companies, I might add), it involves knowing the people involved really well and upwards of a year of talking and negotiating and getting ALL of the people involved on-side with the idea.

What happened with Monolith Soft shows very clearly that Nintendo is willing to put that kind of effort into any acquisition they take part in. It also shows in the information we have about the acquisition of Mobiclip (now NERD), the stock-trade business alliance with DeNA, and most recently the acquisition of JESNET (now Nintendo Sales Co.).

The industry is going with partnerships more nowadays because companies want the freedom to do what they want to make. In the case of Monolith, it worked, but look at Rare, or all the companies that EA bought to later kill, or the companies that Microsoft bought to farm out their I.P's and had to end up releasing the games also on Windows to manage the costs.

Comparing corporations like they have completely analogous business practices and agendas really doesn't do much to make a case.

The argument is Nintendo doesn't NEED to buy a company to make great games with them. They published Bayo 2, they helped Bomberman Switch happen.

It's not about need, it's about consistent availability of the talent and a maximization of profit. Sub-contracting is more expensive than having people on payroll, so you make more per game if you own a studio, it's just typically considered a higher risk. But the risk-reward ratio is more manageable for Nintendo, when they have gaps in their release schedule to fill that 3rd-parties can't be assed to.

As an example of these principles in action, look no further than Nintendo poaching a huge chunk of Hudson Soft staff, buying out Dentsu's ownership portion of ND Cube and basically making it a studio for those former Hudson employees.
It happened because:
- Nintendo had a strong foundational relationship with the president of Hudson Soft and its management staff (who in turn had a good relationship with their employees that made it easy to pitch the idea of signing on with Nintendo)
- Nintendo wanted them to keep making Mario Party games and...
- Despite all the money they spent reworking ND Cube to be the studio it became, it would have still been cheaper that working a deal with Konami to have those employees work on Mario Party games or having to pay an independent studio that may have formed from their departure, which has its own risks of the talent dissipating to other companies instead

If it were cheaper to do it another way, it would have happened another way. But it didn't. And that speaks to the value earned by having in-house studio talent, particularly those with a defined pedigree. Nintendo put in the legwork and made it happen, because there was value in doing so.

I'm not sure what you mean really. He was pretty much just repeating what Iwata used to say about the subject.

Then you're misremembering Iwata's statements.
 

LordKano

Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152789

It's very true, people were laughing at how Nintendo got ripped-off, and look at where we are now.

Lmao at duckroll in that thread
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I guess Namco FINALLY BAILED OUT! I wonder why Nintendo would want them anyway, they've never made a single profitable game and the good developers from the Baten Kaitos series aren't even on board here.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
 

HeroR

Member
I think it will be interesting to see if Mercury Steam has another Nintendo project in the works if Metroid does well on the 3DS. It appears it's going to review well based on the impressions we've gotten, and I like to think it will at least sell decently. I could see more collabs in the future like they do with Next Level Games, but not sure they would buy them.

I thought people here hated Mercury Steam. I mean, people called them mediocre and weren't happy that they were doing Metriod.
 

Ridley327

Member
The Stampers wanted Nintendo to purchase the company outright, and own them fully, Nintendo didn't want to, and thus MS stepped in.

Nintendo was the first company that they offered their stake to, but they weren't exactly married to the idea that it had to be Nintendo. They wanted out and found someone willing to give them a price they liked. Who knows what price was discussed initially, but it is safe to say Nintendo was not going to be spending nearly $200 million to buy them out with how things wound up with the final purchase.

For the sake of comparison, they only spent $1 million on Retro's purchase, and that has something of a reputation of being more of a rescue operation than gaining a valuable development partner. That's what they eventually became, but back then, it was mainly to right their course after Jeff Spanenberg ran that studio into the ground.
 
On topic- interesting article. Glad to see Nintendo allowed them to still creatively do what they want while pushing their level of quality. I look forward to see what they work after X2.

Off-topic- in terms of acquisitions. I don't see Nintendo going out and buying more companies anytime soon. However, to go off in fantasy world and say what I'd like to see:

1. Mercury Steam- I think this development studio is reminiscent of other developers Nintendo has bought out such as Retro and Monolith. I'd also like to see Nintendo diversify its development scene and have a game studio in Europe. They could beef the team up a bit and split it into three divisions. One team that works on Metroid(whether 2D or 3D), Another team that works on AAA new ips or other Nintendo franchises, and a small team that assists other European developers with developing games on Nintendo systems.

2. Expand Retro and NST- Retro capable to work on two ambitious projects at once with a new ip and freedoms to do what they want being encouraged. The other team works on pre-existing Nintendo franchises such as Donkey Kong, Wario, Metroid, or Zelda. Retro, also has a team that works with and oversees projects from Monster Games, Next Level Games and other American game developers that Nintendo is publishing titles for. Retro team can coordinate projects like F-Zero or Diddy Kong Racing with Monster Games while working with Next Level Games on Luigi's Mansion.

NST is staffed back up to take on predominately different twists on Nintendo ips that may appeal to western audiences. Also has two smaller teams, one that develops experimental downloadable titles on Switch/Mobile and the other that works with American indie developers.

3. Platinum Games- about a 1% chance of this ever happening. However, have Sakurai/Sora oversee Platinum. Have Platinum split up into different teams that can take on multiple projects. Have one quarter of Platinum's output be taking on Nintendo ips such as Smash Bros., Kid Icarus, and Star Fox. Another quarter dedicated to new Nintendo owned ips includes W101. The remaining half developing games using 3rd party owned ips such as Bayonetta, Vanquish, Nier, Metal Gear Rising, Megaman, Okami, Jet Set Radio, etc.


None of that would ever happen in a million years but it's nice to dream.
 
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