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[SmokedMeat]

Yep, and don't forget the Switch version will have motion controls, touch screen controls, and HD Rumble. Features that won't be on the Xbox and PlayStation versions.

None of which matter in this sort of game. I'd rather save a few bucks and have higher resolution.

Edit: Switch is definitely going to be a first party machine for me. It's going to be rare for me to buy a big AAA third party on this machine.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Maybe these entitled millennial developers will have to learn the ancient lost art of compression.

Doubtful though because it's not in a drop down menu in Unity.

 

[BanjoLayleeYookaKazooie]

I second this. Why should we have to pay more because of their stupid decisions.

It was a stupid decision to use cartridges for a system such as the Switch? So the correct decision would've been discs? Or should they have made something else entirely? In fact you use a plural so they made *multiple* stupid decisions? What were they exactly?

 

[Principate]

He's simply providing a reason for the cost increase. It's cartridges. It's inescapable fact that it costs devs more to ship games on them. They aren't going to eat the loss, so they pass on the "savings" to consumers. Just like we had to pay more for SNES and N64 AAA games compared to PSOne and Saturn. Only then the price difference was $10-$30; things have actually gotten better.

Whether the actual cost is $4, 5$, $7, or $8, I'm sure they're marketing guys will always round up, and $49.99 is a more common market price than $44.99 or $46.99 anyway.

They're rounding up way too much, do the math on his cost increase. It's an insane mark up. Just because it costs more doesn't give a company free reign to screw the consumer over on this. The only reason they're able to get away with that mark up is because it's launch and market forces won't have a strong enough effect.

 

[giancarlo123x]

Being back my boy UMD.

 

[James Scott]

I remember publishers being ok with Wii releases being $10 less and PSP 3DS multiplats being around $20 or more less.

Also, the likes of RiME are still releasing with Switch tax like 8 months later when the other versions are like $20.
Don't think it's ok to release later with an issue like extra storage needed or extra cost for the same/higher price.

 

[mieumieu]

Maybe these entitled millennial developers will have to learn the ancient lost art of compression.

Doubtful though because it's not in a drop down menu in Unity.

Compression is much more commonplace in today's game dev than you think.

PS4 provides hardware file system compression for example. Also there are numerous compression methods like

zlib, LZMA, LZ4 for general use
DXT1/5 BC5/7 for textures
audio and videos have numerous compression methods depending on platforms

What devs should do often are not compression but

1) cleaning up unused files/file segments
2) removing redundancy while minimizing file seek

Being back my boy UMD.

No

NOOOOO

I don't want to stare at 50 second loading screen at commute

massive waste of time

 

[TheLegendaryN]

If Rockstar made the PS4 and Xbox One versions $50, just like the Switch version (and took the extra profit), nobody would've noticed and nobody would've cared. $50 is a reasonable price for a remaster anyway.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Being back my boy UMD.

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

It's not that Nintendo was right or wrong that is just the reality of using flash storage. There are some advantages to it as well (faster loads, more durable, etc) but it will never be as cheap as optical media.

It was definitely the right decision for a hybrid though.

of course, just trying to say that people only see the positive but never the downside of it. that been said in time it should come down.

 

[blu]

Superior media costs more.

I'd rather see publishers charge $10 more physically a spring for 32GB than follow the examples of NBA2K18 and RERev Collection and force large downloads.

Ditto.

And prices of mask ROM carts will only go down in time, so if 8GB is the sweet spot this year, next year it will be 16GB, etc.

 

[BanjoLayleeYookaKazooie]

Looooooooooooool

Your gifs are just the best.

 

[OmegaDL50]

It's not that Nintendo was right or wrong that is just the reality of using flash storage. There are some advantages to it as well (faster loads, more durable, etc) but it will never be as cheap as optical media.

It was definitely the right decision for a hybrid though.

Some folks still think going with carts was a bad idea, but when asked for an alternative solution for a portable console. The typical answer of "Not be portable" Is just a hand wave.

Now the issue with mini-discs like the ones in the Gamecube or the smaller ones inside the UMDs is they had the same caveats that optical media has with loading times.

UMD's had a max capacity of 1.8GB of data. The Gamecube games were even smaller at 1.5GB max capacity.

So using an optical storage solution for a handheld console is not viable for the size / space demands of modern games.

If a standard Blu Ray has a 50GB max capacity. Not even mini-Blu-Ray with a max capacity of 15.6GB would be enough.

For a handheld console in 2017 to have adequate storage capacity for the sorts of games available such as BoTW and Xenoblade, Flash Carts was the only reasonable choice considering the current progression of storage technology in a small form factor for a portable device.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[bionic77]

None of which matter in this sort of game. I'd rather save a few bucks and have higher resolution.

Edit: Switch is definitely going to be a first party machine for me. It's going to be rare for me to buy a big AAA third party on this machine.

Doesn't matter to you but I am sure it matters to some people who like having their games be portable.

It's nice to have options.

 

[Sjefen]

Dont Nintendo games have better re-sale value as well?

 

[Fiendcode]

ZhugeEX says an 8GB card has similar margines to a bluray Though I wonder what that means for certain indie games adding Switch tax.
Unless they're all bigger, of course.

Switch tax does kind of cancel out the added value of a Switch release in a lot of cases which is a bummer. I also can't imagine they cost $10 more

It means the $10 physical premiums on Rime (4.25GB), Axiom Verge (under 1GB) and Puyo Puyo Tetris (1GB) were likely bullshit. Also the doubled retail price on Cave Story (under 1GB) looks pretty exorbitant.

LRG already dispelled this cost myth when they revealed Switch pricing was comparable to Vita for the games they were looking at. The only companies who should be looking at $10 premiums are those shipping on larger cards.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Oh well. This isn't new. It was brought up last year and that's the risk they take. It costs more so. Just don't buy it.

 

[Nilaul]

If what this Daniel Ahmad says is true, the 32gb Cards are much cheaper that I expected.
A 50 GB non-rewritable Blu-Ray costs around 2 Euro, and they probably are quite a bit cheaper if you order huge amounts at once. That would mean the price increase is below 1 Euro, even less if you factor in the smaller cases, which should result in cheaper shipping and storage costs.

I would be all-right paying a few extra euros.

BTW a quick search reveals that that noir the complete edition is approx 13 GB (After installation) on torrents which means that the game could fit on a 16gb card.

 

[Principate]

Dont Nintendo games have better re-sale value as well?

Nintendo games do. If your average 3rd party game isn't in reasonable demand you can find them for a few dollars/pounds in certain scenerios e.g many 3DS games.

It means the $10 physical premiums on Rime (4.25GB), Axiom Verge (under 1GB) and Puyo Puyo Tetris (1GB) were likely bullshit. Also the doubled retail price on Cave Story (under 1GB) looks pretty exorbitant.

LRG already dispelled this cost myth when they revealed Switch pricing was comparable to Vita for the games they were looking at. The only companies who should be looking at $10 premiums are those shipping on larger cards.

It was always console launch tax. This has mainly just been a convenient scape goat but this the same old shit with every launch.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Dont Nintendo games have better re-sale value as well?

First party Nintendo games, sure.

 

[Plum]

Whether the actual cost is $4, 5$, $7, or $8, I'm sure they're marketing guys will always round up, and $49.99 is a more common market price than $44.99 or $46.99 anyway.

See this part is utter bs from publishers. Nobody's going to refuse to buy something because it's price doesn't end with 9.99, they just want a higher margin than other consoles whilst using the excuse of extra cartridge costs to justify it. Blaming the blanket $10 or £10 increase entirely on Nintendo is clearly wrong, it's a mixture of a costly storage solution and publishers price gouging due to the Switch being new.

 

[Nilaul]

It means the $10 physical premiums on Rime (4.25GB), Axiom Verge (under 1GB) and Puyo Puyo Tetris (1GB) were likely bullshit. Also the doubled retail price on Cave Story (under 1GB) looks pretty exorbitant.

LRG already dispelled this cost myth when they revealed Switch pricing was comparable to Vita for the games they were looking at. The only companies who should be looking at $10 premiums are those shipping on larger cards.

Yep, but why pass on the opportunity to make more money.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[big_z]

Nintendo is banking on the carts getting cheaper fast but in the mean time they either need to reduce royalties or eat some of the cost. When devs need to sell games at higher prices or as Incomplete physically you fucked up.

 

[kami_sama]

It means the $10 physical premiums on Rime (4.25GB), Axiom Verge (under 1GB) and Puyo Puyo Tetris (1GB) were likely bullshit. Also the doubled retail price on Cave Story (under 1GB) looks pretty exorbitant.

LRG already dispelled this cost myth when they revealed Switch pricing was comparable to Vita for the games they were looking at. The only companies who should be looking at $10 premiums are those shipping on larger cards.

Wow, that's fucked up. It didn't click for me that Rime's size was below the 8GB cart. And considering that there's going to be some space saved due to smaller assets, it might even be able to fit into a 4GB cart.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Yeah we've been over this already with this game and others. @ZhugeEx even went into it the other day.

This is actually the only worthwhile and useful piece of information to come out of this thread. Thanks Zhu.

It's quite amazing that an 8GB card vs a Blu Ray are almost the same and that the 32GB one is just 60% more in terms of price. That's amazing given the advanatges of cards vs optical:

• Cards have Far less physical foot print. Eay to store and transport.
• Cards are More durable media for preservation purposes.
• Full Game in cards don't need installation. So accessing the game is faster, specially with borrowed copies and no Hard Disk space management needed.
• Less power requirements for the console.
• Card reader tends to last more than optical lens and lasers.
• Seek times are faster. Although data throughput is similar to optical.

From my view the pros counterweight the cons considering the price. If you are into physcial media they are still great.

 

[ryushe]

How does the PS4/Vita cross-buy titles work price wise?

Genuine question.

 

[Plum]

Especially when you have people doing your PR / damage control for you.

Considering the blanket $10/£10/€10 price increase we've been seeing can at least partly be blamed on publishers, wouldn't those who are blaming this situation entirely on Nintendo be doing the PR/Damage Control as well?

 

[Salvadora]

Some folks still think going with carts was a bad idea, but when asked for an alternative solution for a portable console. The typical answer of "Not be portable" Is just a hand wave.

Now the issue with mini-discs like the ones in the Gamecube or the smaller ones inside the UMDs is they had the same caveats that optical media has with loading times.

UMD's had a max capacity of 1.8GB of data. The Gamecube games were even smaller at 1.5GB max capacity.

So using an optical storage solution for a handheld console is not viable for the size / space demands of modern games.

If a standard Blu Ray has a 50GB max capacity. Not even mini-Blu-Ray with a max capacity of 15.6GB would be enough.

For a handheld console in 2017 to have adequate storage capacity for the sorts of games available such as BoTW and Xenoblade, Flash Carts was the only reasonable choice considering the current progression of storage technology in a small form factor for a portable device.

I think this is a fair point.

It's shit, because I don't want to pay more, but it was the only viable option.

 

[sphinx]

This is actually the only worthwhile and useful piece of information to come out of this thread. Thanks Zhu.

It's quite amazing that an 8GB card vs a Blu Ray are almost the same and that the 32GB one is just 60% more in terms of price. That's amazing given the advanatges of cards vs optical:

• Cards have Far less physical foot print. Eay to store and transport.
• Cards are More durable media for preservation purposes.
• Full Game in cards don't need installation. So accessing the game is faster, specially with borrowed copies and no Hard Disk space management needed.
• Less power requirements for the console.
• Card reader tends to last more than optical lens and lasers.
• Seek times are faster. Although data throughput is similar to optical.

From my view the pros counterweight the cons considering the price. If you are into physcial media they are still great.

that's if you care about the technicalities of it.

for gamers, the only argument in favor of the Switch is portability

will people want to play L.A. Noire on their TVs AND on the go? if yes, the premium is justified.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

They're rounding up way too much, do the math on his cost increase. It's an insane mark up. Just because it costs more doesn't give a company free reign to screw the consumer over on this. The only reason they're able to get away with that mark up is because it's launch and market forces won't have a strong enough effect.

He said in his clarification tweet that you're never going to see 32GB carts priced at $40 or less because the margins are too low. That's the only math that matters, it's simply not worth shipping games that large for less than $50. This is almost assuredly the reason Revelations 2 is arriving as a download only.

Since standard next gen pricing is $59+DLC anyway, we usually won't see a difference on new releases of AAA games, but we've already seen the discrepancy pop up for a few Indies and a few late gen ports.

 

[kami_sama]

This is actually the only worthwhile and useful piece of information to cxome out of this thread. Thanks Zhu.

It's quite amazing that an 8GB card vs a Blu Ray are the same and that the 32GB one is just 60% more. That's amazing given the advanatges of cards vs optical:

• Cards have Far less physical foot print.
• Cards are More durable media for preservation purposes.
• Full Game in cards don't need installation. So accessing the game is faster, specially with borrowed copies and no Hard Diskm management needed.
• Less power requirements for the console.
• Card reader tends to last more than optical lens and lasers.
• Seek times are faster. Although data throughput is similar to optical.

From my view the pros counterweight the cons considering the price.

But price is king in most business. And a lot of these cons are only cons when you think of portable consoles. The footprint doesn't matter in a console that doesn't have to move around, and the power requirements are a non-issue when almost all the consumption is on the SoC. And the last con is invalidated by the need to install the game.

All in all, if you need to be able to move around a console, cartridge (or digital) it is. If not, the cheaper discs make them a lot more attractive.

 

[ryushe]

that's if you care about the technicalities of it.

for gamers, the only argument in favor of the Switch here portability

will people want to play L.A. Noire on their TVs AND on the go? if yes, the premium is justified.

I think so, but that's just me.

 

[LordKano]

I'm okay with big games being more expensive at retail due to the cost of the cartridge, that's just unavoidable for now and I can't blame neither the publisher, neither Nintendo who didn't really have a choice with this format. However :
- The digital version must be the same price as on PS4/One
- Games under 8gb, if Daniel Ahmad's claim is right, shouldn't cost more if the margin is not slammer.

L.A. Noire will be at a reduced price digitally, so it's fine. There's a ton of games that aren't doing that though.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

See this part is utter bs from publishers. Nobody's going to refuse to buy something because it's price doesn't end with 9.99, they just want a higher margin than other consoles whilst using the excuse of extra cartridge costs to justify it. Blaming the blanket $10 or £10 increase entirely on Nintendo is clearly wrong, it's a mixture of a costly storage solution and publishers price gouging due to the Switch being new.

At this point you're nitpicking over whay may be $2-$4.

 

[Plum]

He said in his clarification tweet that you're never going to see 32GB carts priced at $40 or less because the margins are too low. That's the only math that matters, it's simply not worth shipping games that large for less than $50. This is almost assuredly the reason Revelations 2 is arriving as a download only.

Since standard next gen pricing is $59+DLC anyway, we usually won't see a difference on new releases of AAA games, but we've already seen the discrepancy pop up for a few Indies and a few late gen ports.

How does that justify charging $50 when, to get the same margins as BR, you'd only need to charge $48 or $45? What about those indie titles that don't use large carts, what justifies their $10 increase? Legitimately curious, because I can't see any reason why right now.

At this point you're nitpicking over whay may be $2-$4.

That's not a justification.

 

[sphinx]

I think so, but that's just me.

I don't think you're alone.

I have a ton of friends that have no time, they can't spend 1 or 2 hours every night in front of a TV with big-ass open world games

Some of those friends would have never ever touched BotW if it wasn't playable on the go.

 

[PsionBolt]

It must be tough, as a publisher, to weigh the extra profit of a higher price against the lost sales of a higher price. Intuitively, for a game like this, available on so many other platforms, I have to expect that a ten dollar increase will have quite some negative impact on sales... And when it does, I further have to expect that publishers will draw the wrong conclusion, blaming the audience instead of the sticker on the box. Sigh.

 

[Zen Aku]

Many people say this, but when it's a game they really care about the price doesn't matter. If it were Red Dead Redemption or something like that would you be saying the same thing?

Yes

 

[OrbitalBeard]

will people want to play L.A. Noire on their TVs AND on the go? if yes, the premium is justified.

I mean...probably? That's the entire selling point of this console. My system stays docked 90+% of the time , but I still like having that option. My assumption is that most Switch owners agree.

That obviously doesn't take away from the fact that a $10 premium on a lot of third party games is rather unfortunate.

 

[silva1991]

No, you see, it's actually a discount because you're getting two versions of the game: Both a portable and home console version!

Lmao.

 

[FyreWulff]

This is the downside of cartridges, they're always going to be more expensive as a base cost because you can't just stamp a bunch out.

 

[jviggy43]

Why does it being an inherent feature of the system make it not added value? Are the many PS4/Vita or 3DS/Wii U cross-play titles we've seen not added value because they're the same game? I'm confused as to what your reasoning is here.

Because that value came from purchasing the console. Attributing that feature to a game because of a console's feature, and then using that as a way to suggest youre getting two versions of a game (youre not) to justify the added costs is stupid. If you want to justify the added cost, all you have to do is read one of the several really well thought out posts in here detailing how this was the right choice for a portable hybrid (in which case added costs of games are a byproduct for letting you play mobile, not ideal, but ultimately a sound sacrifice).

Suggesting youre getting two versions of a game because you can play it two different ways due to the console (IE not the game) is such a ridiculous suggestion. Also hilarious that someone preemptively made a joke about this and now were actually having to have the conversation.

 

[sixteen-bit]

 

[LQX]

Some of you are justifying this by saying carts are more expensive to produce, but $10 more, especially at bulk rates? No way. I think much of it has to do with $10 being a better rounded figure than charging say $3-$5 extra due to carts costs.

 

[Mameshiba]

Actual Bluray manufacturing costs aren't what Sony and MS charge for bulk replication on their propietary platforms. It's generally $7-9 per unit (disc, manual, case) depending on volumes and retail pricepoint. An 8GB Switch game comes in around $8 for comparison with 32GB being almost twice that.

3DS was comparably expensive too, depending on the rom and flash size it could vary from $7-14 per unit. Despite that games were priced lower than home consoles though.

Do you happen to know the price for 16GB aswell?

What I would also be interested in is the actual cost comparison on Nintendo's side. If Nintendo asks for 8$ for a 8GB cartridge and nearly twice that for a 32GB cartridge, does Nintendo actually have a cost increase of ~7-8 Dollar for the bigger cartridge, or are they either calculating a markup or subsidizing the costs? Basically I want to know the manufacturing prices for cartridges and Blu-Rays which Sony and Nintendo pay^^

 

[Stallion Dan]

$10 is 60% more than a BR disc? So BR discs cost near $17?

Bollocks.

 

[Principate]

He said in his clarification tweet that you're never going to see 32GB carts priced at $40 or less because the margins are too low. That's the only math that matters, it's simply not worth shipping games that large for less than $50. This is almost assuredly the reason Revelations 2 is arriving as a download only.

Since standard next gen pricing is $59+DLC anyway, we usually won't see a difference on new releases of AAA games, but we've already seen the discrepancy pop up for a few Indies and a few late gen ports.

Your not getting this. Just because your margins have reduced by 5% doesn't give you the right to charge for a 25% increases. Play around with the numbers all you want those margins are massive.

 

[Chû Totoro]

This is actually the only worthwhile and useful piece of information to come out of this thread. Thanks Zhu.

It's quite amazing that an 8GB card vs a Blu Ray are almost the same and that the 32GB one is just 60% more in terms of price. That's amazing given the advanatges of cards vs optical:

• Cards have Far less physical foot print. Eay to store and transport.
• Cards are More durable media for preservation purposes.
• Full Game in cards don't need installation. So accessing the game is faster, specially with borrowed copies and no Hard Disk space management needed.
• Less power requirements for the console.
• Card reader tends to last more than optical lens and lasers.
• Seek times are faster. Although data throughput is similar to optical.

From my view the pros counterweight the cons considering the price. If you are into physcial media they are still great.

This is useful since it shows how 10$ is so much more than the actual cost of 32GB vs. 8GB but hey... it's ok for devs to ask 10$ more even when their games are way less than that smh

Really, I understand that some are preferring cartridges (I do for many of the reasons you've listed) but I can't accept that devs/editors are using this excuse to make an even bigger profit on Switch owners.

The difference in price between 8GB - 32GB ROM is not 10$ !!!!
So if you're ok to pay more, it's nice since you'll enjoy the game no matter what but still, something is odd here.