Support NeoGAF

[Giftofgab24]

I think gamergate and the alt-right are one in the same these days.

 

[2blackcats]

"But it's a coincidence!!"

I mean the proof is now there to see. I'm just glad Bungie is getting rid of this. I just hope they find the person responsible for doing this because you really can't say this was a plain simple error after seeing the pics of different armor/costumes with the same logo on them.

I missed the proof. What is it?

 

[ramoisdead]

I think gamergate and the alt-right are one in the same these days.

They always have. It's just as of recent people are putting the pieces together.

 

[thumb]

It seems to be how the internet works. It's quite scary at times, which is why I've just typed out the following. Imagine working at Bungie right now and having half the internet with pitchforks coming at the company demanding unemployment. When people can't even accept saying "I approve of Bungies initial move to patch and them saying not intentional, but I'd like to think an investigation would happen with consequence if necessary.". Instead it's "100% fire someone, I want a piece of shit named publicly and unemployed right now because I've made my judgement and my judgement is fact before trial". I'm not sure how anyone's train of thought can think like this without some sort of due process, even if looks damning. This is a graphical logo, I've shown in this topic how it CAN be possible for terrible design mistakes. Even if this is intentional mistakes CAN happen in design.

People get fired because they show up to work late, even when it's "not their fault" they were late. People get fired because team members don't like their personality or because they have odious personal habits. In "at-will" states in the US, you can be fired for almost any reason whatsoever. Reproducing white supremacist iconography for millions of customers is for certain a fireable offense, even if you "didn't mean it."

Your mistake is you're treating this as though it is a criminal trial with an assumption of innocence. It is no such thing. This artist is not on trial and no business is required to keep him or her employed. If Bungie has an artist that might just happen to accidentally and near-perfectly reproduce white supremacist symbols, maybe it's time for a different artist to take their place.

 

[dubq]

They need to name and shame whoever is responsible for this bullshit.

 

[polyh3dron]

I'm also a bit confused. While I frequent 4chan alot and kek is used there quite a bit. (the non-nazi parts - and before someone posts something cute, yes they do exist.) I can understand that "kekistan" is alt-right or whatever. But "kek" is just lol in orcish. That get's used in WoW to this day. Without any white supremacist idea behind it.

White supremacists on the internet have been furiously perpetuating once-banal memes like "kek", Pepe The Frog, and others in an effort to assert ownership of them. There was a time where you could bust out a rare pepe and not be accused of being the grand goddamn wizard of the KKK. There's nothing inherently racist about the Pepe The Frog, or the WoW slang for "lol", but now that they've successfully stolen them, they can't be used without that connotation coming along.

 

[dubq]

It's the B.net mentor emblem.
I mean, it's similar. Green, angular, vague K shape.

That is nowhere near the same symbol.

 

[jtar86]

i dunno

how much of a safety net does the community provide for othr members?

Its also possible he was a short term contractor and didnt give a fuck

who knows

We may never know as Bungie may opt to apologize and remove it and be done with the issue... at least in the public space but who knows

I can't imagine a scenario where he doesn't lose his job and maybe the development community isn't as tight as I'm lead to believe and word won't get to everyone. That's just pure speculation on my part and I could be totally wrong but with all the stuff happening recently I would think it would be taken more seriously.

How many millions of people voted for Donald Trump?

Guess how many millions of them are totally unbothered by At-Right symbolism?

I suppose you're correct and I'm guessing most people (myself included) had no idea that was a symbol for anything.

 

[Audioboxer]

People get fired because they show up to work late, even when it's "not their fault" they were late. People get fired because team members don't like their personality or because they have odious personal habits. In "at-will" states in the US, you can be fired for almost any reason whatsoever. Reproducing white supremacist iconography for millions of customers is for certain a friable offense, even if you "didn't mean it."

Your mistake is you're treating this as though it is a criminal trial with an assumption of innocence. It is no such thing. This artist is not on trial and no business is required to keep him or her employed. If Bungie has an artist that might just happen to accidentally and near-perfectly reproduce white supremacist symbols, maybe it's time for a different artist to take their place.

Your first paragraph just convinces me there is shitty companies and bosses? If Bungie does things like that flippantly they would be a shit employer?

My mistake must be to think that people's earnings and their job mean a bit more than an internet hunt for satisfaction. I'd rather see discipline in the form of a firing used when there is intent to be an asshole/do something wrong or there is repeated problematic behaviour. I guess I wouldn't be a hard enough boss or a corporate enough company man? Because companies can fire people and leave them without an income for any reason they want I should just fall in line here? Sorry, that's not a convincing argument for me.

In the small chance a genuine design mistake has been made here, like Bungie said, not intentional, I'd rather they handle things professionally and reasonably instead of just firing people because "the internet asked for it". Fire someone/some people only if there is intent and it's investigated. You're asking for someone's livelihood to be taken away for your own satisfaction if you actually want it done without due process. That is actually borderlining on being cruel.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

They could probably get away with putting milk or an ok sign in a game. No one would know or care.

 

[Baraka Obama]

That's wrong. There is a way. Do an internal review of the employee once identified and see if they frequent questionable websites using company computers, look at their social media to see if they're tweeting stupid shit, etc.

This is what i imagine they're doing as we speak.

 

[Gestault]

It's the B.net mentor emblem.
I mean, it's similar. Green, angular, vague K shape.
But like, Destiny has a lot of weird angular designs- especially in emblems

S...sure. Ok.

 

[Dylan Sexbang]

That is nowhere near the same symbol.

Similar != same.

They need to name and shame whoever is responsible for this bullshit.

That is not for you to decide, and absolutely lot- they should not be named. Holy shit, job lynch mobs are fucking insane.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

They could probably get away with putting milk or an ok sign in a game. No one would know or care.

Really confused what your point is.

 

[dubq]

Similar != same.


That is not for you to decide, and absolutely lot- they should not be named. Holy shit, job lynch mobs are fucking insane.

It's not even similar.

As for the job mob. If someone is actively and purposely inserting hate propaganda into products then yes they should be named and shamed. Same treatment that any piece of shit publishing a racist 'zine would get.

 

[Baraka Obama]

I doubt we'll hear from bungie after they issue a press release apologizing. Hopefully if intentional the person behind it gets sacked.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Your first paragraph just convinces me there is shitty companies and bosses? If Bungie does things like that flippantly they would be a shit employer?

My mistake must be to think that people's earnings and their job mean a bit more than an internet hunt for satisfaction. I'd rather see discipline in the form of a firing used when there is intent to be an asshole/do something wrong or there is repeated problematic behaviour. I guess I wouldn't be a hard enough boss or a corporate enough company man? Because companies can fire people and leave them without an income for any reason they want I should just fall in line here? Sorry, that's not a convincing argument for me.

In the small chance a genuine design mistake has been made here, like Bungie said, not intentional, I'd rather they handle things professionally and reasonably instead of just firing people because "the internet asked for it". Fire someone/some people only if there is intent and it's investigated. You're asking for someone's livelihood to be taken away for your own satisfaction if you actually want it done without due process. That is actually borderlining on being cruel.

Maybe its a genuine mistake, maybe not. I wouldnt take the chance and have it blow up in my face later down the line if I was the employer.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Really confused what your point is.

Alt-right attempts at using pre-existing symbols to "trick" people into thinking the symbols are racist are dumb.

If I don't make sense it's because I should be sleeping.

 

[Dylan Sexbang]

It's not even similar.

As for the job mob. If someone is actively and purposely inserting hate propaganda into products then yes they should be named and shamed. Same treatment that any piece of shit publishing a racist 'zine would get.

Guess what, that isn't for you to decide. Bungie and Activision will fucking care of it. Yo DO NOT know their intentions. And the benefit of the doubt should always be taken, NOW if they had thrown out the goddamn stupid kekistan flag in its entirety as an emblem or stuck it on a Sparrow, or secretly on the magazine of some random ass Scout rifle, then I would understand- and even then, would let it the hands of Bungie and ATVI's HR teams. Especially when the goddamn phrase kekistan has such a tiny search interest as it is (as per KnowYourMeme).

I trust Bungie will handle this accordingly, (as they have already removed it), as Bungie has proven to be pretty progressive and supportive of their communities. But I cannot ask for someone's goddamn job, and to have them publically shamed from their own company. Fuck that.

 

[thumb]

Your first paragraph just convinces me there is shitty companies and bosses? If Bungie does things like that flippantly they would be a shit employer?

My mistake must be to think that people's earnings and their job mean a bit more than an internet hunt for satisfaction. I'd rather see discipline in the form of a firing used when there is intent to be an asshole/do something wrong or there is repeated problematic behaviour. I guess I wouldn't be a hard enough boss or a corporate enough company man? Because companies can fire people and leave them without an income for any reason they want I should just fall in line here? Sorry, that's not a convincing argument for me.

In the small chance a genuine design mistake has been made here, like Bungie said, not intentional, I'd rather they handle things professionally and reasonably instead of just firing people because "the internet asked for it". Fire someone/some people only if there is intent and it's investigated. You're asking for someone's livelihood to be taken away for your own satisfaction if you actually want it done without due process. That is actually borderlining on being cruel.

I was trying to give you some perspective about fireable offenses. It's clear that many fireable offenses are frustrating and arbitrary, but this is not one of them. There is a case for plausible damage to Bungie's business due to the actions of this employee. There is a reasonable fear that, even if this employee denies intent, he or she is not being 100% truthful. And regardless of whether Bungie takes the asset down, this event will be permanently enshrined on every Destiny Wiki, on countless gaming websites, and of course racist hate sites. They will celebrate it. It will be a signal boost for white supremacists around the world.

"Whoops" sometimes doesn't cut it.

Also, your fear that Bungie will fire someone just because randos on the internet want it is overblown. They know their own interests, that's not going to be why they hire or fire people.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Considering SJW is already "Social Justice Warrior", "SJWarriors" is quite the failure at trying to be witty; one more example of the yawning abyss between what they assume to be their intelligence level and the harsh reality.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Remember, there are actual white supremacists working in the games industry and possibly for your favorite game developer

Not just gaming. Software development in general. Trust me on this.

 

[Audioboxer]

Maybe its a genuine mistake, maybe not. I wouldnt take the chance and have it blow up in my face later down the line if I was the employer.

In what way? I'm pretty sure the design team won't make a mistake like this again. I really hope some of you aren't bosses. People make genuine mistakes. Employees make genuine mistakes. This one, if a mistake, can be patched out (it already has) and why can't gamers then move on and keep playing without the logo existing any more? Why would anyone HAVE to stay in the past and not be able to laugh off a very unfortunate mistake? No one is getting hurt over this graphical logo if it's a mistake. It's already gone. Bungie have apologised, said it wasn't intended and iterated they are fully against hate.

Unless you mean it's "the internet" that won't forgive regardless of what Bungie say and will continue to trash them? Well that goes more for the culture of the internet that cannot accept a mistake and move on proportionately. That is what can be scary about mob hunts online. If they do not get the justice they demand, even if they're asking for something disproportionate, they'll keep going until they get it. We want names, we want people fired, and we don't care if you've apologised and it's a genuine mistake. It really gets unsettling at times. Again I ask people to consider actual human beings exist in the design teams at Bungie. Try and have a little bit of empathy for how shit they might feel if this is a mistake and thousands want them (or an individual) going home over the next few nights without a salary. Let Bungie investigate if they have to but be prepared to move on accepting their apology and statement of no intent if you do not hear of anyone getting fired.

 

[Yearsoflurking]

I think gamergate and the alt-right are one in the same these days.

Just different white supremacy factions being rebranded same shit

 

[Dr.Social]

Similar != same.


That is not for you to decide, and absolutely lot- they should not be named. Holy shit, job
lynch mobs are fucking insane.

That's a pretty fucked up term to use to defend a white supremacist

 

[brokenwatch]

 

[Gestault]

Guess what, that isn't for you to decide. Bungie and Activision will fucking care of it. Yo DO NOT know their intentions. And the benefit of the doubt should always be taken, NOW if they had thrown out the goddamn stupid kekistan flag in its entirety as an emblem or stuck it on a Sparrow, or secretly on the magazine of some random ass Scout rifle, then I would understand- and even then, would let it the hands of Bungie and ATVI's HR teams. Especially when the goddamn phrase kekistan has such a tiny search interest as it is (as per KnowYourMeme).

I trust Bungie will handle this accordingly, (as they have already removed it), as Bungie has proven to be pretty progressive and supportive of their communities. But I cannot ask for someone's goddamn job, and to have them publically shamed from their own company. Fuck that.

If a contract or staff artist compromises a product by sneaking in white supremacist symbolism, they're putting the success of that product and the jobs and reputations of everyone else in the studio at risk. You seem to go so far as to be upset at absolutely legal, proportionate consequences for someone having done that. Implicit in any and all criticisms here is the conditional that the person intended to do it.

I can't pretend to give your points the benefit of the doubt if you can't recognize the specific decisions behind the composition of the original offending logo, or your utterly left-field attempt to show a "similar" design. I hope you're just so design-impaired you don't know how much of a stretch both those assertions are to anyone with a sense of visual design. The alternative is a truly sick level of insincerity.

 

[Dylan Sexbang]

That's a pretty fucked up term to use to defend a white supremacist

That's a pretty fucking huge leap to make for someone you know absolutely nothing about. I will not make assumptions about this person, not about their race, their gender, their wall of life at all. I will only give them the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise. As it should be.

 

[OG Loc]

nah are you serious?

 

[OdysseusVA]

no one is putting any effort into account suicides these days

 

[Rumblebones]

Yup they need to put a name to this or they'll never get my money. Someone has to be let go

Ditto. I'm a big fan the original Halo trilogy and Reach, and I put a decent chunk of time into Destiny 1, but no matter how good Destiny 2 may be, this will not stand. They will never receive any business of mine again if this is not dealt with appropriately.

Why would name the individual? This is an internal issue with HR written all over it. Most of the employees will have no idea what is happening or being said, so it seems odd to call for some public announcement.

Nah, fuck that noise.

Bungie should obviously conduct a thorough internal investigation, however, they need to be public with its findings and consequences if this is, as it so obviously appears to be.

White supremacy must be opposed and condemned publicly, and if this is an intention piece of white supremacy imagery, they have the moral obligation to take a stand.

 

[Shil Pencer]

Holy Moly the overreactions in here are terrifying

 

[shanafan]

Ditto. I'm a big fan the original Halo trilogy and Reach, and I put a decent chunk of time into Destiny 1, but no matter how good Destiny 2 may be, this will not stand. They will never receive any business of mine again if this is not dealt with appropriately.

Just curious, what was holding you back before this news broke from buying the game? This issue changed everything for you?

 

[Wadiwasi]

I remember kek being all over World of Warcraft, and when I actually read the article...I assumed that they wanted to add a little Easter Egg in the game for it. However, those 2 designs do look really similar.

Maybe I am naively believing it was an accident, however if it was truly meant for that logo then Bungie will be able to find the people who came up and worked on the design. It will be handled internally.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

In what way? I'm pretty sure the design team won't make a mistake like this again. I really hope some of you aren't bosses. People make genuine mistakes. Employees make genuine mistakes.

What if it wasn't a mistake?

 

[D i Z]

That seems more like paranoia on your part than gaslighting, but OK.



It's actually more obvious in the new pics, as they don't have the "I"'s around the K's. That is, they spell "KEK" rather than "IKEKI". So yeah, I'm adjusting my "it's intentional" chance to around 85%.

I'm pretty much telling you that I've seen that flag around for months, and now you wanna gaslight me?

Well played.

 

[thepotatoman]

Kek is not derogatory toward Koreans. It's a phrase originating in WoW, what alliance players see when horde types "lol." Koreans do not use "kek" as a laugh.

Kekekekeke may possibly be derogatory, or it may just be someone laughing in text the way Koreans do. Similar to jajajajajaja or huehuehuehue. IIRC huehue may not actually originate from a specific language, and might be solely a meme/derogatory. Koreans also use kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. It's all not far removed from english hahaha or lolololol.

So yeah. Kekeke = referencing Korean laugh, kek = referencing WoW. I think "top kek" and this "kekistan" thing all originated from WoW.

Kekistan is not a WoW reference. It originated january of this year explicitly by the alt right as part of "meme warfare" and a flag that was very obviously modeled after the nazi flag.

This is not a case of co-opting at all, nor is it a case of reading into things that don't exist. It is explicitly white supremacy from the very origin of it.

 

[Heigic]

Holy Moly the overreactions in here are terrifying

I think most people agree it is the flag and the person responsible should be fired. TERRIFYING.

 

[RPGam3r]

Ditto. I'm a big fan the original Halo trilogy and Reach, and I put a decent chunk of time into Destiny 1, but no matter how good Destiny 2 may be, this will not stand. They will never receive any business of mine again if this is not dealt with appropriately.



Nah, fuck that noise.

Bungie should obviously conduct a thorough internal investigation, however, they need to be public with its findings and consequences if this is, as it so obviously appears to be.

White supremacy must be opposed and condemned publicly, and if this is an intention piece of white supremacy imagery, they have the moral obligation to take a stand.

Its not noise. You are proposing an HR nightmare. The potential for a legal battle over defamation being high.

They were already very public about being against any possible ties with white supremacy. You're asking for more than that though.

 

[striferser]

So you voted for Trump, is what you're saying.

The image was practically lifted from that KKK symbol, dude. Are you going to sit there and tell me that exact fucking image just happened to pop into some artists head? THEY ARE THE EXACT, IDENTICAL IMAGE.
And Bungie agrees. So it doesn't matter what your opinion is at this point. Dude is getting fired.

Depend on who's making this.
AAA studio like Bungie usually outsource studio from china or vietnam or some other to do some design. Whag could happen was the designer for that design didn't understand the implication of what the word meant. The fault could lie in the guy who approve this...

I know because i once need to explain to QA why KKK is a banned words. We're from south east asia and we don't really learn about KKK here...

 

[Audioboxer]

What if it wasn't a mistake?

Then I'm certain Bungie will find out who was behind it and a firing will probably be very likely. If it's outsourced they won't go to whoever they outsourced to with a contract again. I've never said otherwise. Although I did remark you will not get someone fired live on Twitch as one poster did ask for that (could've been satire but who knows these days). There is many posters arguing in here it 100% cannot be a mistake so a hypothetical debate ended up happening about what happens if it is? Or with more nuance myself and a few others have argued will you at least allow there to be due process without someone/some people just having their heads roll without an investigation? Bungie have said on Twitter it's not intentional and I'm pretty sure they had more information to hand when making that statement than anyone outside the company.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

It's called institutional racism. Also, if they were gonna fire anyone, they would've done so by now. This is most likely a 100%, inexcusable, blatant attempt at inserting hateful imagery into a game by a member of a group that has been notoriously getting more and more brazen about their buffoonery since Trump became president. At best, it's dangerously ignorant, and the person responsible needs to go anyway.

Yeah, lets throw an entire development team under the bus for the mistake of one guy.

Sure showed em

I'm sure I don't need to say this, but the game industry, on the development side, especially in the US, trends very white. Specifically, I'm throwing the individual responsible for putting this into the game under the bus, but more people definitely deserve blame, as well. I'm sure there are several white supremacists on that team that saw that imagery go by and approved of it. I also wouldn't be surprised if, again, at best, literally everyone who saw it before release was so ignorant as not to recognize its origins. The former is a manifestation of white supremacy on the Right. The latter is its close cousin, white privilege.

Those of us who are victims of institutional racism lack the privilege of being ignorant of Nazi imagery. The shit is life and death.

So yes. Fire that fucking artist.

 

[Dylan Sexbang]

If a contract or staff artist compromises a product by sneaking in white supremacist symbolism, they're knowingly putting the success of that product and the jobs of everyone in the studio at risk. You seem to go so far as to be upset at absolutely legal, proportionate consequences for someone having done that. Implicit in any and all criticisms here is the conditional that the person intended to do it.

I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt if you can't recognize the obvious composition decisions in the original offending logo, or your utterly left-field attempt to show a "similar" design. I hope you're just so design-impaired you don't know how much of a stretch both those assertions are to anyone with a sense of visual design. The alternative is a truly sick level of insincerity.

Well first of all it isn't really sneaking when it's plastered right on the side of a pair of high end gauntlets, which are also what display if inspect them. Which odds are you will if you ever plan on infusing.

All I'm saying, is that- the stupid goddamn kekistan is so freaking obscure, I didn't even know it existed and I hardly have a life as it is. It could be a simple design error, and has been since corrected. Anything further is up to Bungie and ATVI to investigate, and come to the conclusion whether or not the artist should be terminated. If they find that it in fact a shitty homage to a shitty /pol/ meme, then I believe they will take the correct steps forward. But until then, without the whole picture or every single bit of information of the situation, it is not within mine or any of the people on this forum to ask for said artist to be terminated nor shamed via public communications.

In the similar design, I was just pointing out that YES Bungie has provided a shit ton of weird angular designs within their universe as is. And the design of the goddamn gloves isn't too much of a stretch to be entirely possibly designed off of something else- but the artist will eat my benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise- at which point, if Bungie has discovered that the intentions were of offensive origins, then it is up to them to announce the offending artist has been terminated (WITHOUT NAMING THEM CAUSE FUCK THAT IN GENERAL) and if they feel it is a major enough issue upon finding that hypothetical then can release it formally through proper mediums.

Until then, it's a shitty design, on tacky Hunter gear, that has already been corrected. Any further action is between the artist, Bungie, and HR.

 

[ramoisdead]

Way to contribute to the conversation. Bravo.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Is there money in pretending white supremacy doesn't exist now

 

[Shil Pencer]

I think most people agree it is the flag and the person responsible should be fired. TERRIFYING.

I am not saying it is or isn't but people are already assuming this guy is a skinhead nazi and should be blasted in public. Nobody here knows the intentions of the design and the witch hunt should come to a halt before it gets out of hand. There is still a chance it's a huge coincidence, I have personally never seen that flag in my life, it could be a 4chan fan doing it for the lulz, or it could be a racist pig. I do believe the fact bungie felt the need to address it speaks volumes but at the same time it should be handled internally and peacefully until it's figured out.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

The saddest part of shit like this and the nonsense with PDP is the community response. "Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, guys!"

Yeah, just like the victims of white supremacy get when it comes to jobs or police interactions. Fuck

 

[thepotatoman]

Is there money in pretending white supremacy doesn't exist now

Someday I'll turn into a full conspiracy theory lunatic thinking absolutely everyone is a paid russian troll because there's no way people can be this thick unless they're paid to be this thick.

The alternative is too hard to handle.

 

[MadSexual]

Max is confirmed racist:

Spoiler

But seriously, I just learned about all of these "memes" and fuck these assclowns.

 

[BigDes]

The saddest part of shit like this and the nonsense with PDP is the community response. "Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, guys!"

Yeah, just like the victims of white supremacy get when it comes to jobs or police interactions. Fuck

Yep, so many people desperate to give terrible people the benefit of the doubt.

Dude can't do an airdash, community response is to start howling with self righteous rage about ethics

Dude knowingly and slyly inserts white supremacy imagery into the game, community response is to go hey maybe it was (insert torturous and specious reasoning) I can't believe you want him fired just because he supports ethnic cleansing.