If this feels "much better" , then a gun that shoots where you expect it to would feel "much much better"
Nothing feels worse than getting robbed of a precision kill because of a dice roll
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?
- Thread starter sir_dany12
- Start date
If this feels "much better" , then a gun that shoots where you expect it to would feel "much much better"
Nothing feels worse than getting robbed of a precision kill because of a dice roll
User 73706
Banned
They're trying to limit the BR's effectiveness at long range, and slightly randomizing spread is the easiest way to reliably do that, ironically. Like funk said, even the CE Magnum had that - it'd be weirder for some of the guns to not have it at this point. Random spread was the obligatory FPS mechanic before sprint was.
EDIT: Some of the only other ways to really limit fast-moving projectile / hitscan weapons at range are either establishing damage falloff at a certain point, or having projectiles disappear at specific distances outright. I think both of those two would feel significantly cheaper / less reliable than the current solution.
disagree 1000%. Leaving a shots precision up to chance is a terrible and arbitrary way to limit range. the bullet is still flying and is still lethal, so effective range is unchanged. You've just removed the players ability influence its path, rewarding luck instead of skill.
The best way to limit the effective range would be to reduce RRR, magnetism and perhaps the size of the bullet. Hell, static spread would limit average effect range, Without turning the gun into a crap shoot. In any case, the precision weapons range should be limited by a players precision, not by whether or not the game randomly decides someone should die.
The magnum has limited range, w/o random spread. There's no reason they can't apply the same concept to the BR.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Forget about the BR for now, let's focus on the true enemy of Halo:
#PartOfTheProblem
#PartOfTheProblem
- Throws Requiem into the Sun on a whim
- Forces SWAT on us
- Quitter
I don't think weapon spread is inherently negative, especially since it has always been a thing in Halo. That feeling you mentioned about missing shots despite being 100% accurate is a thing in CE and we both love that game, so I'm not vehemently opposed to spread.
Forget about the BR for now, let's focus on the true enemy of Halo:
#PartOfTheProblem
This is who we CHAMPION..
- Throws Requiem into the Sun on a whim
- Forces SWAT on us
- Quitter
I don't think weapon spread is inherently negative, especially since it has always been a thing in Halo. That feeling you mentioned about missing shots despite being 100% accurate is a thing in CE and we both love that game, so I'm not vehemently opposed to spread.
The only benefit it provides is reduced range- something that can be achieved in ways that don't punish players who are accurate.
I don't see the positive in doing things that can easily be done better.
I'm not even opposed to spread, but random spread is not a better option than static spread. Both limit effective range, but one gives the kill to the luckier player, the other gives the kill to the better player. It's a no brained which one is superior.
I like CE, i like Halo 5. That doesn't mean we shouldn't choose superior options.
Also, CEs spread was user controlled. Pacing your shots allowed for true trajectory.
Halo 3 had both shot leading and spread, though. It's been hitscan city since that game.
Poodlestrike
Banned
H3 BR's problem was a combination of:
-Shitty netcode
-Projectile fire
-Random spread
Random spread in and of itself isn't the end of the world, though that's partially flavored by my inability to land headshots with any sort of consistency regardless.
-Shitty netcode
-Projectile fire
-Random spread
Random spread in and of itself isn't the end of the world, though that's partially flavored by my inability to land headshots with any sort of consistency regardless.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
What would you suggest without making it more difficult to control? The H5 BR was too strong as a starting weapon for 4v4's, so you can't just lower its RRR. You can't increase its recoil much without potentially frustrating players. I mean, you could just not have the BR as a starting weapon lol, but it seems 343 wants to try it out again.
Your second shot won't be in the same exact spot as your first shot no matter how long you wait between shots, unlike the H5 BR. CE's spread is not user controlled; it's random. Just double checked it.
BizzyBum
Member
No more season emblems.
Laws00
Member
Then I have no more reason to play ranked anymore lol
Projectile fire isn't even a problem. Sniper rifles in Battlefield feel amazing, for example.
Poor netcode, coupled with random spread, in a weapon that's supposed to be precise is a recipe for disaster.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Combination, is the key detail. Projectile fire exacerbated both of the other problems.
Hitscan is superior for a game like Halo though, let alone more consistent. The main reason why Halo 3 has aged horribly is because of the lack of hitscan.
BizzyBum
Member
I initially thought the changes were terrible but after playing more the past couple of days I think I actually like the changes.
The BR feels weird at first but it's still really good, just not as good from across the map. That's where the DMR or Carbine come into play. The DMR is pretty useless in CQC (how it should be) and the Carbine either has nerfed ROF or damage which is fine because I felt it was way too good before. Again, it's still really good solo and even deadlier when combining fire with a teammate. The railgun is heavily nerfed and nowhere near as good but again it was just another weapon that dominated too much beforehand. Having to plan your attack with it is a good thing, instead of before where you can get shot in the back, charge up, and whip around and kill your enemy. Automatics are still really good but I have definitely noticed a drop off when trying to engage mid to long range due to the increased spread which is how it should be, and with HCS radar no more crouching around watching your radar with an SMG for guaranteed kills. No speed boost for sword is great, too.
I think 343 did a good job of redefining the roles of each gun and made them different enough from each other to use in different scenarios. I'm sure the current settings will be adjusted in a few weeks, anyway.
The BR feels weird at first but it's still really good, just not as good from across the map. That's where the DMR or Carbine come into play. The DMR is pretty useless in CQC (how it should be) and the Carbine either has nerfed ROF or damage which is fine because I felt it was way too good before. Again, it's still really good solo and even deadlier when combining fire with a teammate. The railgun is heavily nerfed and nowhere near as good but again it was just another weapon that dominated too much beforehand. Having to plan your attack with it is a good thing, instead of before where you can get shot in the back, charge up, and whip around and kill your enemy. Automatics are still really good but I have definitely noticed a drop off when trying to engage mid to long range due to the increased spread which is how it should be, and with HCS radar no more crouching around watching your radar with an SMG for guaranteed kills. No speed boost for sword is great, too.
I think 343 did a good job of redefining the roles of each gun and made them different enough from each other to use in different scenarios. I'm sure the current settings will be adjusted in a few weeks, anyway.
I don't see why reduced RRR doesn't work- it means a player has to work without aim assist at range- reducing the effective range.
If you MUST have spread, you use static spread. It has the same effect of making the weapon harder to use at range. But whether or not a shot lands is a matter of the player's ability to use his aim to compensate for a spread that he can predict, rather than pure luck.
Your second shot doesn't need to be in the same place as the first. You just need to be able to plan and influence where your shot goes.
CEs Magnum had spread, But the player could influence exactly where the bullet went. Fire properly, and the shots are true. You could also use the reticle to figure out how to manipulate magnetism and guide the projectile to directly to your intended target.
Ranged headshots were a matter of skill, not chance.
The video makes it look like that because the player is standing right next to the wall, so the impact decals all smudge together. Halo 1's pistol has spread even if you lightly tap the shots, it's just much less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL7YI4jgcYs
I love the simplicity and purity of the Halo CE's sandbox.
I don't think anything will ever beat this game. Look at how good the AIM is, and feel, with like no magnetism at all (or just very few depending on the weapon).
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Because simply reducing the RRR doesn't do anything for CQC -> mid range, which is where the BR shines and why it's not a good starting weapon for 4v4's.
"Pure luck" is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? lol
Test it out yourself, that video only showed close range. As far as "manipulating magnetism," that's just a matter of using the inner ticks to help you lead shots and understanding how the weapon functions.
Here are two gifs: zoomed -VS- unzoomed -- Also account for projectile travel time, a good strafe, lowest magnetism in the series IIRC, etc.
But I digress, there has always been spread in Halo. As far as balancing the BR, how would you nerf it CQC so it's not as dominant as it currently is?
Random spread doesn't do anything for CQC either- it's a range nerf
At CQC range, BR spread is irrelevant since the bullets separate over distance.
How is it an exaggeration? The outcome of two BR users displaying equal skill will be determined by who is luckier. There's nothing good about that design.
I've been trying it out for 16 years. The closer you are, the closer your shots will land together, but the same principles apply at any range- pace your shots and they fly closer to center than when pacing is ignored. You use this fact to increase the likelihood of your shots landing within magnetisms influence and on target.
Exactly my point. When a weapon behaves in a consistent and predictable manner a player can learn to use its nuances to overcome the weapons limitations = reward skill
There's nothing you can learn about a random spread to become a better BR user (other than, if you're still alive, keep firing because the game might decide you missed even though you are on target). When a weapon behaves randomly, you are at the mercy of chance.
Spread always existing isn't an excuse for poor implementations. CEs magnum rewards skill through and through. Static spread is another superior alternative to random spread.
We should also note, that the random spread has nothing to do with limiting CQC. It's only at range when spread becomes a limiting factor. The BR spread is intended to reduce its effectiveness at range.
But since you asked:
Prior to the update I wouldn't say the BR being easy at close range was problematic. The problem was that a skilled magnum user couldn't outplay a BR user because the magnums TTK was too high given its difficultly. I believe the magnum should've able to land the 5th shot prior to BR user pulling the trigger for the 4th time. I also wouldn't have been opposed to the magnum having a 1.8 or 2.0 scope.
The faster magnum kill time would be justified by the reduced aim assist and RRR. The harder weapon is potentially more lethal. On the other hand, The BR user just has to make one shot miss, and the encounter swings in his favor.
If the intent is to make the BR a starting weapon (which I don't see the point of), then really all it needed was reduced aim assist, magnetism and RRR (basically turning it into a 2x zoom 3shot burst pistol. If range is still an issue (which I don't think it would be) then implement static spread.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
There's no possibility in CE to land 100% of your shots even if you're 100% accurate because spread can make you miss artificially. That's all I'm saying, and it's partially why 3sk's aren't common. Of course if you're close up then the spread is essentially negated, but over range it certainly impacts encounters.
As far as the H5 BR, yeah maybe just lowering the aim assist etc. could have been better, but right now I don't think the BR is an abomination because luck is a factor again. That being said, I know where you're coming from since I'd rather they stick with AR/Pistol starts anyway and work from there. Maybe they'll change the BR again throughout this testing period, but all I know is if they are really trying for BR starts again, it cannot be the same BR we previously had.
As far as the H5 BR, yeah maybe just lowering the aim assist etc. could have been better, but right now I don't think the BR is an abomination because luck is a factor again. That being said, I know where you're coming from since I'd rather they stick with AR/Pistol starts anyway and work from there. Maybe they'll change the BR again throughout this testing period, but all I know is if they are really trying for BR starts again, it cannot be the same BR we previously had.
YourExWife
Member
Goddamn scrubs man, smh...
BizzyBum
Member
Dude, the aim assist is like completely gone! lol
I think we are just gonna disagree here. the reason people 3shotting was hard is because you needed to lead your shots. Even with a red reticle magnetism wouldn't help your shot to land unless you lead properly. This made stafing very effective compared later games. If you pace your shots, and lead properly, you negate the spread via the magnetism (which is something that can't be demonstrated just by shooting at walls)- and this can be replicated consistently even at extremely long ranges.
I don't think it's an 'abomination', but the luck factor is an unnecciary strike against it . Just make the spread static.
We agree the BR was poorly balanced, and I think it's in a better place than it was. But they went overboard. Making a precision weapon imprecise isn't the right way to go, imo.
BizzyBum
Member
I was just playing a few minutes ago and everything seemed fine.
It's wierd because I was the only one not able to load the post game carnage report out of any of my matches today.
First impressions, "eh" with a bit of "why?". The new BR may honestly be a good change when all is said and done, but right now its just fucking with me. There were several times where my brain new I should have got a kill and I didn't. Felt like my aim was on point, is this because of the random spread? Regardless, at 2 years in its going to take quite a bit of relearning to not feel ripped off for losing kills that I swear Im getting robbed of. Why put the player base through this this late in the game? The hcs settings worked well, keep the mag, nerf the autos and some of the other guns and be done with it imo.
Barely used the gunfighter mag, think I'm now used to a single weapon loadout (as well as too used to relying on a BR in all engagements).
Finally, I'm finally understanding people's issues with rock paper scissors weapon balancing. This very much feels like you really need to switch weapons constantly depending on weapon range. I've (finally) come to the conclusion that I DO want a loadout utility weapon that is capable pretty much across the board. I think the h5 mag did this better than the new BR.
Barely used the gunfighter mag, think I'm now used to a single weapon loadout (as well as too used to relying on a BR in all engagements).
Finally, I'm finally understanding people's issues with rock paper scissors weapon balancing. This very much feels like you really need to switch weapons constantly depending on weapon range. I've (finally) come to the conclusion that I DO want a loadout utility weapon that is capable pretty much across the board. I think the h5 mag did this better than the new BR.
BizzyBum
Member
It's never too late to make your game better... But they should've done this much closer to launch ... like every other game does... i you look at RB6 (which climbed to the top of the xbl charts after launching behind H5 back in 2015) you look at overwatch, you look at splatoon. Recognizing issues and promptly fixing them is good business.
It's never a good time to use randomness to try to balance a weapon. It just makes the weapon frustrating because theres a chance of failure even if you execute perfectly.
It's never a good time to use randomness to try to balance a weapon. It just makes the weapon frustrating because theres a chance of failure even if you execute perfectly.
True and I did consider that.
VincentMatts
Member
The gun balance was the least of this games problems.
As far as gameplay is concerned I'd argue the gun balance was the biggest problem with 5.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I agree with this (the first bit, I think that there's room for debate on the second) but uh I wouldn't include Overwatch in that. Their balance team is just sorta flailing around.
VincentMatts
Member
Thats not the reason people left the game and only the halo fans stuck around. This game has a ton more pressing issues, like some of the worst halo maps ive ever played on, missing features and game modes, unblalanced warzone, boring progression system, terrible SP etc The guns doesnt fix any of this
Lemme say that again:
As far as gameplay is concerned I'd argue the gun balance was the biggest problem with 5.
Also lol at worst Halo maps ever.
BizzyBum
Member
Didn't you miss your last shot? The reticle wasn't red (not denying the random BR spread btw, but that's something I'm not against since I always thought the BR was too efefctive without random spread).
Prinz Eugn
Member
It looks more like the dude stayed alive briefly after the four shot. Bizzy's simulation versus the server and whatnot.
I'm still thinking about skill gap stuff, maybe I'll post a treatise tonight.
BizzyBum
Member
Probably server related like Prinz said above, but yeah I clearly missed the last burst over his left shoulder yet he still died. Also funny we trade even though he gets a perfect.
Initial impressions after a couple of games:
BR:
Whilst I disagree with the addition of random spread, despite that I significantly prefer this version of the BR to the last. It's actually possible to miss now. Kills feels more rewarding because of that and I don't feel like it's suicide to challenge someone when a shot down.
Gunfighter mag:
Haven't used it enough to really see the difference the tuning has made. That said, I've enjoyed using it to quickly clean up kills at close quarters.
DMR:
Seems like they're straight up removed aim assist out of scope. Not entirely sure how I feel about that. Whilst it probably achieves 343's goal of making it a long range only weapon, I doubt we'll see much use of it at all now. Need to try it a bit more but unless they've made it slightly more powerful at long range it seems kinda pointless to me...
Also Torque seems actually somewhat decent now.
BR:
Whilst I disagree with the addition of random spread, despite that I significantly prefer this version of the BR to the last. It's actually possible to miss now. Kills feels more rewarding because of that and I don't feel like it's suicide to challenge someone when a shot down.
Gunfighter mag:
Haven't used it enough to really see the difference the tuning has made. That said, I've enjoyed using it to quickly clean up kills at close quarters.
DMR:
Seems like they're straight up removed aim assist out of scope. Not entirely sure how I feel about that. Whilst it probably achieves 343's goal of making it a long range only weapon, I doubt we'll see much use of it at all now. Need to try it a bit more but unless they've made it slightly more powerful at long range it seems kinda pointless to me...
Also Torque seems actually somewhat decent now.
I figure a class based game is a million times harder to balance than an arena-like shooter because there are so many character combinations to consider.
Still i think attempting to address issues early is great for business
You're denying the truth if you think gun balance is the only bad thing.
And yes, worst Halo maps. Halo 4 had better MP maps - at least artistically. Also, Halo 4 had better BTB.
Are Recon DMRs on map anymore?
BizzyBum
Member
Agreed. I understand 343 removing the aim assist and magnetism somewhat to lessen its effectiveness in close quarters but they went overkill. The aim assist is so low now that I even have trouble hitting people from far away with it. The current iteration is useless and I would never pick it up over a BR or Carbine. Definitely needs tweaking.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
The game was praised at launch, so it needed time to sink in with people. We needed to feel it out.
Ehh, I don't think the game was unbalanced, it was just too easy to be effective with everything. And weren't you one of the biggest defenders of this game's balance anyway? lol