Skellig Gra
Member
That says that they'd shoot someone in the legs in a non-threatening situation and in the chest for self defense. It doesn't really make the point you are claiming because it mirrors what happened in this story.
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Campus police shoot and kill LGBT activist armed with knife at university
- Thread starter Enter The 36 Chambers
- Start date
That says that they'd shoot someone in the legs in a non-threatening situation and in the chest for self defense. It doesn't really make the point you are claiming because it mirrors what happened in this story.
Lol. Bad topic to be trolling in.
Again a cops job is to protect the public first, not themselves.
Snkfanatic
Banned
Lol what is this post?
We trained the Tueller Drill three times a year, and once more during fire arm qualification. Even in a training situation, with a fake knife, the danger response is unreal.
........
Addressing some other things mentioned in the replies:
Tazer - see above. 15ft range, which is best case range. That isn't real life at all. When using a tazer on a moving target, the effective range is unfortunately not reliable at all. You also have to account for what this person is wearing. Taking chances with a non-lethal weapon (tazer) versus an approaching subject with a lethal weapon, is a gamble to say the least.
The same goes with pepper spray, aka capstun. Actually using it in this situation, might or might not work well at all. It doesn't STOP anyone from continuing their goal. It might slow them down because of vision issues, but they can still violently slash around with a knife. It can also affect the officer using the spray, causing even more dangerous situation. Go out and spray this stuff in an attack, outside.. yeah. It doesn't work well.
Non-lethal bullets.. that would be ideal, to keep from having to take a life. Couple issues with that. You need to carry it with it you at all times for situations like this. If you have it in your car, and have time to get it, then safely use it, I'm all for it. Did these officers have that option? If delaying the attack by backing up, talking to the subject, gives another officer time to get to their car, grab the beanbag shotgun, and use it, I'm 100% for that. Armchair guessing in this case is just that, guessing.
Shooting at limbs to immobilize a subject is probably one of the most DO NOT do things in real life. It's just ludicrous. Stop watching movies.
Comparing this particular situation to any other situation from any other company isn't accurate at all. There's no real idea on how this exact situation with this exact person would have happened/ended in any other city, state, country, etc. Doing that has sooo much assumption/speculation/guessing, etc.
That's what pretty much any other police force in the western world does...
You isolate the guy and use a couple cops with riot shields. There are plenty of video examples of cops around the world doing this and taking the suspect in alive. It's not rocket science.
The response in this thread by the Americans perfectly sums up why its policing is in such a shit state. The general public thinks its fine to shoot to death a mentally ill person with a knife. They can't comprehend the idea of policeman being able to engage the situation in a non lethal manor. Even though its done routinely in other developed countries.
Whompa02
Member
Tell me about it...that comment reflects a poor sense of the real world.
If I saw someone with a knife, I sure as hell wouldn't be thinking about safely disarming them. I'd be more worried about my own safety. Screw them.
entremet
Member
Actually not according to SCOTUS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/p...stitutional-duty-to-protect.html?mcubz=3&_r=0
For instance, and this is my own eye witness account fwiw, there was once a guy in front of my building who confronted his ex and her friend there. Even shot and hit the friend, then kidnapped the girl and held her at gunpoint. Cops arrived, talked him into releasing the girlfriend and then spend two hours with a negotiator to get him to surrender. He was still carrying the gun, he could have tried to take a shot at any of them and yet everyone lived because they managed to talk him down. The SWAT team even stood out back for all that time and went home without ever having to point their M4s. Nobody died that day and he was still convicted and send to jail for the crime.
Other Western nations have police officers capable of bringing down people wielding machetes without killing them, why aren't US police trained the same way?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzPj_IaMzY
Police in the U.K are able to disarm a man waving a machete at them with no guns on their person. Over in America, the police would have shot him and called it a day.
Lol.
Well as an armchair critic that was in the military I will say with 100% certainty that person and I would have both survived that encounter.
Police training clearly sucks when they have multiple men at different angles deployed
against a single shambling knife wielding suicidal person and they still don't feel in control enough to have one man drop his weapon and try something else.
I was expecting it to be a one on one encounter with one cop but nope! That's what gets me. I can see a single person defaulting to lethal force and feeling out of options but when multiple armed men face down a lone person with a knife they still don't feel secure enough to take any, and I use this term loosely here, chances because they're such chicken shits.
All Americans should demand better.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Police can capture serial killers, murderers, and violent drug users alive but somehow a kid with a knife gives them pause.
Whatever. They got the job done but let's face it, it was done poorly. Nobody needed to die.
Demoskinos
Member
Sure, they weren't going to put down the knife. But then to still go for the lethal option as the first means of ending the situation. If one of the officers were rushed by the knife wielder then okay, sure you don't have time for really any other option at that point.
Judging by the several times they implored this person to stop they weren't exactly rushing at the cops. As several other people have mentioned a Tazer would have sufficed to disarm them.
Sidenote @ everyone: The article clearly states this person did not identify as male or female. Please don't misgender them its not cool.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
That's what they signed up for, isn't it? Putting yourself in harms way to protect the community? 'To protect and to serve', meaning to protect and serve the community, not protect yourself first and foremost before the community.
Lots of sane and harmless people do this too.
Peroroncino
Member
Oh, I was wondering why didn't they take their chances with a taser first, this is actually a pretty interesting thing to learn.
I still think that they should have one or two just in case, if they happen upon a suspect in a secluded area there's no downside to having one.
mullet2000
Member
Totally, the riot shield thing is a good move. Requires them to be equipped with them though, obviously. I was talking more about direct hand to hand reaction to it.
That just proves how fucked up it is
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I've seen several pictures showing it was a multi tool, not a knife (as the kind one would imagine)
Another scared bear tale
Another scared bear tale
faulty_fork
Member
Well it just seems strange how our police force manage to pull it off then, I've seen many news stories about people being shot in the leg by the police but not a single one where the suspect died from it or bystanders got hit..
That incredibly nice, honest and humble person could cut short the life of more than a young person with mental health issues for not carrying a taser and behaving like he's hunting down outlaws in the wild west. So I'll question whatever the heck I want.
Wthat the fuck is wrong with the US, seriously.
My take was that quote was so people in this thread use the proper pronouns rather than misgendering them.
Vicetrailia
Member
In this situation Dutch police wouldn't have guns out. This is like a prime situation to prevent a suicide.
Chuckie
Member
No it says the police is allowed to shoot someone in the chest in a situation where they have to defend themselves.
If you look at actual shootings by Dutch police, it is almost always in the leg. Also with persons who wield a knife.
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nederland/politie-schiet-tassendief-tweemaal-in-been
https://www.ad.nl/rotterdam/politie-schiet-verwarde-man-in-been-in-capelle~ab3af549/
http://www.omroepgelderland.nl/nieuws/2136049/Schieten-Schiet-hem-neer-Politie-schiet-messentrekker-in-been
I think they were referring to all the people using the wrong pronouns in this thread.
entremet
Member
I agree there.
Revolutionary
Member
I had no idea Sean Pegg's character in Hot Fuzz was the average UK police officer.
Again, obviously, a nonlethal solution (i.e. disarming) would have been preferrable, but the person I quoted's suggestion (tackling them to the ground) seems needlessly reckless.
Our entire country is in shambles when it comes to mental health, so no surprise there.
Come on man, while I get your sarcasm, they had no way of knowing his expertise with a knife or fighting experience. Going hand to hand against anyone with a knife is plain stupid regardless of how trained you are. Tasers or something would have been a much better option here, but when someone is threatening you with lethal harm you don't take your chances.
Can these shields be manifested out of thin air? They were responding to a report of someone with a gun aka a potential active shooter.
Stop watching movies.
Skellig Gra
Member
How many is "many" to you? I'm not arguing as I'd be very interested in the frequency this happens. The ideal situation as I've stated is to not use a gun at all.
Fair enough, I'm mainly talking about actually shooting someone in the legs. I don't think a gun was required at all for this situation.
Only one of those reads like a similar situation, the other 2 were shot at a distance while not actually coming at the officers.
mullet2000
Member
Again, I think it's easy to sit back and say "that's what you signed up for" when talking about risking your life disarming someone with a knife, but not exactly realistic. I'd call engaging someone with a knife in hand to hand combat reckless risk of your own life. Protect and serve doesn't mean protect and serve with no regard to your own safety.
Not saying shooting to death is a good answer (it's not), but I think people severely underestimate the lethality of knives.
SO, question....did they have any of that artillery with them? Could they got whatever they needed before she approached them?
This is 100% wrong by the definition of their job. And really, there is no reason to expect a cop to risk their own life once they are in a truly dangerous situation where their life is actually in serious risk. They are human beings and it is absurd to expect them to risk their lives over a person intending to harm them. Even if their job was literally always put their own life at risk even against people intending to kill, people would not follow this job rule. Why should they? Nobody is going to put their job's rules over their own life. Would you? I don't know what work you are in, but I'm sure if you found yourself in a dangerous situation due to your job's rules, you would say "to hell with the rules" if your life is actually at risk.
So basically, it is false that police's job is to put their own life's as a bottom priority over the public's. Like, look it up, there have been court cases that it isn't the police's job. And even if it were, it is irrational to expect police to actually follow that policy since they are human beings that value their life more than their job.
I was specifically only talking about whether Dutch officers were trained to shoot for the legs, not about whether officers should just act like Terminators and kill every suspect they come across.
Tence provided evidence that they are trained to shoot for the legs in certain situations, but are also trained to shoot at the chest in self-defense.
This.
There's a few things I've learned in this thread. For one, some people think that a knife is somehow not dangerous. Just, wow. Secondly, people don't understand that most know the police in the US need more training and whatnot. We all agree with that and I see no one against that. I a black man from the South can tell you that. With that said, people are so quick to blame police in every single situation without any details. We don't know a thing about what weapons they had besides the gun, if they received extra training to disarm and etc. All we know is what was said, the gun and the weapon were in play and exactly what happened.
Judging the links in the thread and say that's correct ill say that I can't blame them personally for what they did. Sure, I still blame the police in general for the lack of training but if that's what they were told to do with their training then that's just what happened.
Sad situation overall. I wonder what the student was going through. Very sad.
You can only die if you got no training. And yes, that's the job, and that's also why there is such a big problem in the US regarding the police. Oh a student with a knife ! We outnumber him ! Let's shoot him !
Dude, this is a totally disingenuous post. It's a college student with a multi-tool, not an active shooter. And, yeah, you can call in for a shield. There is no college police force without them, or they could have called the city police or sheriff. Again, every other 1st works nation seems to be able to handle a guy with a knife when you have multiple cops present -- why can't ours?
How about batons? Seems like the UK should start training other country's police forces how to do deal with people armed with knives.
I take it you've never used a gun before?
Even a well trained shooter can be off the mark with a handgun.
I'm a darn good shot, but I'm not sure I could hit a leg, let alone an arm, (with a handgun) under duress or if the person is moving around.
I do think they should carry more non-lethal items though. Hesitating to get close enough to use tasers is understandable. I think long range pepper spray and bean bag shotguns should be standard.
Just look at the stats of how many shooting incidents and deaths there are in most western countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country
Most are in the single digits as far as deaths go, double digits just for using and wounding.
Compare that to the number of deaths in the US, it is pretty clear there is a huge difference in approach.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
You're kidding me.
Anyways, you absolutely do take chances in an enlightened society. Do we want to trust our police or fear them? Nothing to fear if we just comply, right?
They were advancing on the police and the police are liable to any harm to any bystanders. They don't have time to run off and go get shields. You don't respond to a gunman with a riot shield. You're asking for a scenario that doesn't exist here.
Most every other 1st world nation can assume a guy with a knife just has a knife.
Your frame of reference appears to be Jason Bourne movies. There's no easy, safe way to take someone down 1v1 when they have a knife. Even with a stab vest, it isn't hard to take a fatal wound.
UK police aren't amazing at it but are getting better. Mental health is being looked into big time with police. Such as not putting a non violent mental health suffers in a cell etc. Also calls to have a cop unit trained in mental health to be started.
mullet2000
Member
This is 100% incorrect, by the way. No technique is a 100% counter to a knife, most are intended to increase you chance of survival for if you get into a situation where you have to use one.
American cops are way too trigger happy but no training would allow for hand to hand disarms of knife wielders with even close to 100% success.
clockworkinyou
Banned
Show some videos of that Chuck Norris stuff then.
lol - I'd love to see you in a situation where you need help, but someone immediately coming to help you will also make them a victim. 'I'll just sit here and wait for them to do their jobs that they are supposed to do, like die protecting me!'
You ever realize the training given to first responders that iterates 'Be part of the solution, not the problem'. That applies here too you know.