DarkJediKnight
Member
Wow!! It's posts like this that scare me.
Here's an idea. Drop the damn knife. You advance towards someone with the intention to harm, you get what's coming to you.
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Campus police shoot and kill LGBT activist armed with knife at university
- Thread starter Enter The 36 Chambers
- Start date
Wow!! It's posts like this that scare me.
Here's an idea. Drop the damn knife. You advance towards someone with the intention to harm, you get what's coming to you.
Can you link to where Dutch police are trained to start shooting their guns at non-lethal body parts?
And obviously I think these officers should've tried something other than guns to start with.
When you shoot a gun you shoot for center of mass. That means the chest/torso.
Miggytronz
Member
They do get training but its literally defensive knife training. They are not trained to go right after a knife/weapon wielding person.
They do not train to shoot specific body parts either. They train to hit 1 body area. The mid torso. Its the easiest area to train an officer to hit. This isnt Hollywood.
Its common practice even when you get your concieled carry license training in the US (available to citizens) that when you point your gun at someone its to STOP a situation youre in and they too are trained to hit the torso.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Not just UK police. And yes it is legit.
NeOak
Member
I get the "fuck off" and "blue lives" to derail and paint me as something instead of answering my question about what would you do? lol k
That is a very good question.
Captain Smoker
Member
Is this sarcasm?
Hand: Small target, moving in an unpredictable fashion, near to the center of the body.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
There was a time they did. Then there was a bunch of controversy because a bunch of cops were so quick to pull their taser and harm people. Just once more highlighting how pathetic our cops are.
Yes, shooting to kill is a very last resort option that is hardly ever taken and only in the most extreme cases. It also always results in an investigation by default into said shooting to make sure everything was done by the book.
thestopsign
Member
My first thought was immediately why they couldn't have gone for a non-lethal shot? Even after reading through this thread I am confused why they wouldn't have.
And now the center of mass policy I see, but I still think it is a stupid policy.
And now the center of mass policy I see, but I still think it is a stupid policy.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
In a one on one situation out in the open like that? A police officer shouldn't be able to handle that without killing with their gun? Seems absurd to me.
Not in America no. You're about to read a bunch of explanations as to why police can't taze, beanbag, net or even bumrush a knife wielding suspect in America despite doing it frequently in dozens of other countries daily.
UK police are trained far better in seeing mental health problems.
mullet2000
Member
You don't hand to hand someone with a knife. Emergency self defense is great for making it more likely to survive if someone approaches you unexpectedly, but approaching like that is foolish. They would still train them to shoot in that situation.
A knife is more deadly than a gun at close range, no coop is going to willingly put themselves at close range to that.
Now, being equipped with more non lethal counters like tasers and sprays, sure. They should also be better trained to handle these situations in general, like UK and other regions' cops are. But in the specific situation where a person with a knife is coming at you, hand to hand is a bad idea.
I'm not talking about using non-lethal weapons first. I'm talking about being trained to take out your service weapon and shoot at arms/legs.
According to another poster, that is NOT standard training in the UK, at least (to intentionally try to shoot targets in the leg).
Apparently not:
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article160965730/Polizist-erschiesst-Messer-Angreifer-auf-Wache.html
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article163744642/Polizei-erschiesst-bewaffneten-Mann-in-Herne.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...messer-angreifer-in-reha-klinik-15001258.html
http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/s...ten-mann-auf-duisburger-wache_id_6462145.html
No, you're trying to say we don't have the right to criticize them. Armchair critic? Lol.
This is why shit won't change.
They went straight to lethal force.
Impeccable
Member
I'm actually staggered by reading people supporting this murder of someone who needed mental help. No wonder everything is chaos when it comes to policing in the USA.
Skellig Gra
Member
Yes I agree its a better option but its still not an ideal one.
Dreadnought
Member
You're supoosed to shoot center mass. If they aimed for a limb there's a higher chance of missing and now the target is even closer to you. Even if they aimed for the limbs they could have easily hit an artery killing him either way.
faulty_fork
Member
Here in Sweden it's not uncommon at all for cops to shoot knife wielding people in the leg to incapacitate them. Why are people in this thread acting like it's some kind of ridiculous notion? Can't Americans aim?
Peroroncino
Member
Some people watch to many movies if they think shooting somebody in the leg isn't lethal. Leg is actually a pretty shitty place to hit somebody, all it takes is one nicked artery and you're bleeing to death in a matter of minutes or even seconds.
Cops are not trained to shoot body parts in the US. If a cop decides to fire his weapon he is shooting center mass with the intend to kill. Also, aiming for body parts on a target is absurd.
HarryKS
Member
Does that grant them a kinetic shield as well?
Vermillion
Banned
So. They had a lot of people around, and a plastic barricade they could use to knock him out. Plus some of those officers were distracting him.
Would be a solid taser tactic, though with their positioning and guns already drawn, it probably wasn't possible.
EDIT: Fantastic, more people who think shooting people in the leg is A) safe, B) practical, and C) totally safe. But Sweden's aim is so good!
Posts like this scare me. People that have no clue about mental health issues.
Baraka Obama
Banned
I feel as if instead of investing money in lethal weapons research we could idk use that money to make nonlethal weaponry more abundant and pratical.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
You mean to tell me that there aren't techniques available to disarm or disable an approaching student with a knife who isn't exactly a trained ninja? I would have to believe we've figured out fighting techniques to the point that we can train police to handle a student with a knife without being ED-209.
Captain Smoker
Member
Well, the only "non-lethal" area are the legs and even there you have the femoral artery, which can be deadly.
Everything else is just a small target (knee) and probably hard to hit.
If you don't hit it and the guy runs towards you he can stab you two or three times in seconds and you can die as well.
To everyone asking why they didn't use a tazer. I lived in a Midwest town with a major state university in it for the last 10 years. The cops on campus were state cops and they chose not to carry tazers. I was friends with the chief personally and he explained that the officers are trained to apprehend unarmed suspects but if there is any weapon it was too much of a risk putting other students in danger. They used a gun to stop all armed suspects on campus. The idea is that if they didn't and that student hurt another student the ramifications to the university could be great. It is unfortunate that this person died but I don't really fault these officers.
In the case of my first post, he guy with the machete. They backed off until shields were brought in and used the shields to take down the wielder. So close...
https://youtu.be/9mzPj_IaMzY
This is one of the areaswhere I am unable to judge police. These kinds of situations are extremely difficult. As long as the cops tried to make a genuine effort to stop the person and only waited to use lethal force until it was absolutely necessary, I can accept that they choose to protect themselves. I would expect that from anybody. This notion that police are trained to somehow "handle" these situations non-lethally no matter what is false.
Things like teasers and pepper sprays are not useful here since a determined person can continue through being pepper sprayed and a taser can easily be missed as it is a single shot.
I think a better solution would be if police were also armed with non-lethal firearms like those beanbag shotguns.
Things like teasers and pepper sprays are not useful here since a determined person can continue through being pepper sprayed and a taser can easily be missed as it is a single shot.
I think a better solution would be if police were also armed with non-lethal firearms like those beanbag shotguns.
When disarming a person wielding a knife, getting small injuries is not the worst that could happen. There is a real possibility that they could be killed. And in that situation, no person, no human being, should ever have to think "It goes with the job that I have to let myself potentially die before I use lethal force on a person using lethal force against me."
Look into how many UK police are killed in duty every year. You'll find they don't need a kinetic shield, as the tactics used work.
I find this hard to believe.
Well it is in The Netherlands.
And there is a difference in response to, lets say, a gun wielding terrorist and a mentally ill person swinging around a knife with nobody in sight.
Skellig Gra
Member
As I mentioned before shooting someone in the legal can also be lethal, not to mention if they miss they could hit someone else. Not every police officer is some excellent marksman. And as I've said before, they should be using other non-lethal measures instead of live ammunition.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Sad that police in the US don't get trained in deescalation and just shoot. No attempt to use tasers or anything. Just shoot.
Yup. Best place to actually shoot someone is the stomach (large target, non-critical organs).
People saying you can't blame the cops for this one -- yes you can. In the UK, a guy attacked the police with a machete in a far more violent manner, and they took him in alive because of training and proper procedure. Same thing with a guy with a knife this year. They engage, retreat, tire the guy out, use shields, until they can safely subdue him.
US police are all about escalation and shooting someone. Almost 1000 people were shot killed by police last year. That's crazy. If you saw a news report from anywhere else in the world that said "1000 civilians were killed by police last year" you would absolutely believe it was some sort of fascist police state.
People in the US have a real problem objectively looking at their own system.
The police need better training and support, along with higher levels of accountability. I would also argue they need higher pay in order to attract better candidates.
US police are all about escalation and shooting someone. Almost 1000 people were shot killed by police last year. That's crazy. If you saw a news report from anywhere else in the world that said "1000 civilians were killed by police last year" you would absolutely believe it was some sort of fascist police state.
People in the US have a real problem objectively looking at their own system.
The police need better training and support, along with higher levels of accountability. I would also argue they need higher pay in order to attract better candidates.
Chuckie
Member
From the site of the dutch police:
So in the situation of the OP, Dutch police might have been allowed to shoot the suspect in the chest, but would almost certainly shot the suspect in the legs.
Miggytronz
Member
The thing is there is no telling how an officer/licensed to carry person will behave while holding a gun. There aim can be massively off. Hence why they aim for large body mass.
I know my brother (former cop) was trained while pepper sprayed to aim at targets moving at him. There was a fail rate to the shots to pass that course.
What part is hard to believe. Please don't question the integrity of this police chief. He is one of the nicest most honest and humble people I've ever met.
mullet2000
Member
There are absolutely techniques to do this. But no technique is fool-proof and you're putting yourself at serious risk putting yourself in knife range to try to execute one. Most techniques dealing with knives are intended to be used as a last resort if someone is pulling a knife on you and you have to react right then and there.
Again, not saying this situation was perfectly handled but I think it's too easy to sit back and say a cop should put themselves in knife range in these situations.
Vermillion
Banned
You know, the post above has something important most of y'all are missing. These are campus police. E.g., there are students who can be harmed if the cops don't make the right move. In the open - like some of the examples given - sure, do whatever. On campus? Iffier.
Do you have a source? That police in the Netherlands are specifically trained to shoot for the legs, I mean. Because just because some officers do that doesn't mean that is operating procedure.
I'm just asking because European posters keep posting like European officers are trained to take out their guns to shoot people in the legs instead of the chest, but nobody has actually provided anything other than anecdotal evidence for that.
Thanks.
Edit: I also think American police are trained not to fire warning shots. Basically, that they shouldn't be firing their guns unless they're willing to shoot to kill. That sounds good in theory, but unfortunately too many of them are perfectly willing to shoot to kill.
WrenchNinja
Member
European cops seem a lot better than American ones.