Support NeoGAF

[Adaren]

The officers probably could have handled this differently, but I hope we can at least acknowledge that they have an extremely difficult job where they have to deal with high-pressure situations where innocents (themselves included) can be harmed or killed as a result of their split-second decisions.

I guarantee you that none of them are happy that this happened.

RIP to the deceased.

 

[Jacksinthe]

* in America

Here in Sweden they do shoot people in the leg when the situation calls for it. Only as a very last resort do they shoot to kill.

Ah, the femoral artery. That will at least give you an extra minute to explain you're good guy cop by shooting the leg before the suspect bleeds out.

And to those thinking you have time in a knife attack, Google: Tueller

Also, a good rule of thumb is that unless it's a shot to the head or spine the attacker will be doing exactly what they were doing before they've been shot - coming at you. Too much footage of this out there. Even after multiple shots we see attackers still going for upwards of a minute after they've been shot several times.

Most instant stops that do not kill the target are psychological: "fuck I've been shot" (FIBS).

Also plenty of footage of hesitation or nonlethal defensive tools that don't end up well for the defender. Knives are not something you gamble with.

Real life isn't John Wick.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Why are people still misgendering the victim?

It's in the op. Their friend even made a point of asking people to stop.

Hey, having known this person for a while and being good friends with them, I would just like it known that they were nonbinary and preferred they/them pronouns. Thank you.

 

[captive]

You're being unrealistic if you expect any security individual at any level to attempt H2H takedowns of an armed suspect.

This person forced them to use lethal force.

guess you missed this?

There was absolutely no other way to handle this...

Spoiler

There was

http://www.cbc.ca/news/caught-on-video-u-k-police-disarm-distraught-man-wielding-machete-1.3278419


Wasn't thinking of the logistics on that one...my bad.

yea no way, at all, to disarm an armed suspect.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Didn't realize Sean Taylor was a police officer that should've been trained to protect anyone other than himself and his loved ones.

Christ, people are stupid here.

He was someone shot in the leg and died. Not sure what you're going on about in regards to him being a police officer.

Also, most police officers aren't crack shot military trained snipers. They're trained to be effective here, not to maim and likely still kill someone anyway.

Personally I'd rather be put out of my misery right away with a few to the chest than sit and bleed out because my arms and legs were clipped.

Not sure why you feel the need to insult someone, though. Fuck off, kid.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Ah, the femoral artery. That will at least give you an extra minute to explain you're good guy cop by shooting the leg before the suspect bleeds out.

And to those thinking you have time in a knife attack, Google: Tueller

Also, a good rule of thumb is that unless it's a shot to the head or spine the attacker will be doing exactly what they were doing before they've been shot - coming at you. Too much footage of this out there. Even after multiple shots we see attackers still going for upwards of a minute after they've been shot several times.

Most instant stops that do not kill the target are psychological: "fuck I've been shot" (FIBS).

Also plenty of footage of hesitation or nonlethal defensive tools that don't end up well for the defender. Knives are not something you gamble with.

Real life isn't John Wick.

This. All of this.

 

[RulkezX]

Knives are lethal weapons. Even a 'small student' could easily kill somebody with a slice or stab in the right area.

Per the article, the student didn't respond to officers and continued to advance upon them despite numerous verbal warnings.

There is plenty of unjustified violence and outright murder by police in America, but this isn't one of those cases.

This is the most American post I've ever read.

How can you guys rail against cops using violence as their first and only tool yet write shit Luke the quoted post ?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This is the most American post I've ever read.

How can you guys rail against cops using violence as their first and only tool yet write shit Luke the quoted post ?

Because we understand that a knife is a lethal weapon compared to someone that's unarmed?

I'm all for trying to get a few taser shots in or beanbag round but if someone isn't following instructions and advancing on an officer they're going to fire.

 

[Alienfan]

Because we understand that a knife is a lethal weapon compared to someone that's unarmed?

I'm all for trying to get a few taser shots in or beanbag round but if someone isn't following instructions and advancing on an officer they're going to fire.

How do Police in most other western countries, who don't carry firearms, deal with knife attacks then?

 

[Blue Submarine No. 6]

In the UK they would either be talked out of doing anything, tazed, or wrestled to the ground. Even if a firearm team had to respond the guns would never be used.

It's called training. There was no need for anybody to die here.

In most of the civilized world this is considered the appropriate response. Shooting someone who's obviously mentally ill because you're too scared to do the job you signed up for (Protect & Serve, remember?) is just scary.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

How do Police in most other western countries, who don't carry firearms, deal with knife attacks then?

They call the guys who do carry firearms.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

He was someone shot in the leg and died. Not sure what you're going on about in regards to him being a police officer.

Also, most police officers aren't crack shot military trained snipers. They're trained to be effective here, not to maim and likely still kill someone anyway.

Personally I'd rather be put out of my misery right away with a few to the chest than sit and bleed out because my arms and legs were clipped.

Not sure why you feel the need to insult someone, though. Fuck off, kid.

Because many examples have been made as to how the officers in this situation may not have had to kill anyone. Beyond shooting to maim instead of kill, there are other options. You're zeroing in on the possibility of someone dying from a bullet to the leg instead of acknowledging aiming for center mass to kill is a more likely way to put someone under.

Now maybe quit being an idiot.

 

[faulty_fork]

Ah, the femoral artery. That will at least give you an extra minute to explain you're good guy cop by shooting the leg before the suspect bleeds out.

And to those thinking you have time in a knife attack, Google: Tueller

Also, a good rule of thumb is that unless it's a shot to the head or spine the attacker will be doing exactly what they were doing before they've been shot - coming at you. Too much footage of this out there. Even after multiple shots we see attackers still going for upwards of a minute after they've been shot several times.

Most instant stops that do not kill the target are psychological: "fuck I've been shot" (FIBS).

Also plenty of footage of hesitation or nonlethal defensive tools that don't end up well for the defender. Knives are not something you gamble with.

Real life isn't John Wick.

Standard practice here to aim for the legs unless the situation absolutely demands otherwise and I haven't seen any instances of it leading to officers getting hurt or bystanders getting hit by stray bullets. Since the officers are trained to give immediate first aid to the person shot it's extremely rare that they bleed out from the wounds before they can be taken care of at the hospital.

Don't know why you guys keep saying that it's some John Wick stuff when ordinary police officers manage to pull it off without problem in many other countries.

 

[RoadHazard]

Ah, the femoral artery. That will at least give you an extra minute to explain you're good guy cop by shooting the leg before the suspect bleeds out.

And to those thinking you have time in a knife attack, Google: Tueller

Also, a good rule of thumb is that unless it's a shot to the head or spine the attacker will be doing exactly what they were doing before they've been shot - coming at you. Too much footage of this out there. Even after multiple shots we see attackers still going for upwards of a minute after they've been shot several times.

Most instant stops that do not kill the target are psychological: "fuck I've been shot" (FIBS).

Also plenty of footage of hesitation or nonlethal defensive tools that don't end up well for the defender. Knives are not something you gamble with.

Real life isn't John Wick.

Okay? I'm no expert on this stuff, all I know is that people with knives get taken care of by police regularly here in Sweden too, and only about once per year (yes, really) do police actually kill anyone.

It's very rare that Swedish cops use their guns at all (only about 20 incidents per year), because they're trained to handle situations in other ways whenever possible. American cops clearly are not. And some of you guys seem ok with that, like you believe it's the only way things can work. Your culture of normalized gun violence is so deeply fucked up.

 

[RulkezX]

Because we understand that a knife is a lethal weapon compared to someone that's unarmed?

I'm all for trying to get a few taser shots in or beanbag round but if someone isn't following instructions and advancing on an officer they're going to fire.

Justify it anyway you want.

Probably best I don't argue this out , I'm from a lawless European wasteland where 100's of police die weekly cause they can't shoot civilians.

 

[holygeesus]

They call the guys who do carry firearms.

What kind of world do you live in where armed police respond in an instant? UK police use tasers regularly against knife wielding crims.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

What kind of world do you live in where armed police respond in an instant? UK police use tasers regularly against knife wielding crims.

And UK police get stabbed for it.

"One of those hurt is a police officer who was stabbed after going to help. His injuries are not life-threatening."

No gun = can't eliminate the threat.
How do you eliminate said threat, you might be wondering?

"Seven people have been killed and at least 48 injured in a terror incident in London in which three male attackers were shot dead by police."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40146916

What kind of world, indeed. Real life isn't John Wick.

 

[J-Rzez]

Police did as trained from what I've read. Glad they and other citizens are safe.

Im not sure why it has to be explained so many times:

Tazers are inaccurate, not fail proof, and even in short range may not stop the action. It is less lethal, and you respond to equal force.

If you're dealing with an unstable individual, theyre less likely to comply, and more likely to use aggression, while possibly ignore effects.

Pepper spray is a poor suggestion, as its accuracy, and the fact that a percentage of population is proven immune to it let alone someone mentally unstable.

Sad to see someone mentally unstable end their life and couldn't find help other wise.

Its also sad to see someone selfish and suicide by police, as it will put a mental burden on someone knowing they took a life.

You shoot center mass as thats the most assured hit and effectiveness. To suggest shooting other parts is laughable at best. To think every officer is a pistol/rifle master is crazy. Especially thanks to cut budgets reducing training time and target ammo, let alone firearm wear. Many officers I know get just two boxes per year before requalifying and have to pay out of pocket to keep up outside of that...

So blame the tax payers slashing budgets just as of fault.

 

[Akuun]

There was this gif of a policewoman disarming a guy with a knife a while back, but that's probably a slightly different situation because this guy was standing still and not actively walking towards the cops.

https://imgur.com/gallery/8BHAsFV

 

[Famassu]

Clearly this person was not in their right mind. When you advance on police with a weapon, you get shot.

You know there are non-lethal (or less lethal) ways to stop people like this?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Justify it anyway you want.

Probably best I don't argue this out , I'm from a lawless European wasteland where 100's of police die weekly cause they can't shoot civilians.

Argue it all you want. Nothing you say changes the fact that a knife is a lethal weapon. Go Google the 21 foot rule. Sorry I don't know what that is in meters.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Argue it all you want. Nothing you say changes the fact that a knife is a lethal weapon. Go Google the 21 foot rule. Sorry I don't know what that is in meters.

yeah, and a bat can be leathal, a pen can be leathal, even your fists..... it's not an excuse here

 

[RoadHazard]

And UK police get stabbed for it.

"One of those hurt is a police officer who was stabbed after going to help. His injuries are not life-threatening."

No gun = can't eliminate the threat.
How do you eliminate said threat, you might be wondering?

"Seven people have been killed and at least 48 injured in a terror incident in London in which three male attackers were shot dead by police."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40146916

What kind of world, indeed. Real life isn't John Wick.

Of course they would shoot to kill to stop a fucking terror attack. That was an EXTREME situation. If you think what this thread about is even remotely similar, or actually required killing the suspect, smh...

And don't tons of people get shot in John Wick? Seems like real life IS like John Wick, but only in the US. Elsewhere things are more sane.

 

[Gravy Boat]

And UK police get stabbed for it.

"One of those hurt is a police officer who was stabbed after going to help. His injuries are not life-threatening."

No gun = can't eliminate the threat.
How do you eliminate said threat, you might be wondering?

"Seven people have been killed and at least 48 injured in a terror incident in London in which three male attackers were shot dead by police."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40146916

What kind of world, indeed. Real life isn't John Wick.

What's the context for the part i've bolded. Do you mean in general?

 

[Karkador]

AJC (Atlanta Journal-Constitution) Exclusive: Mom of Georgia Tech student shot by police speaks out

According to Georgia Tech police, Scout was seen walking toward police and ignored numerous orders to drop what appeared to be a pocket knife. Photos of the knife taken at the scene reveal the blade was not extended.

and according to the lawyer:

Chris Stewart, the attorney for the student's parents, said it appears the officer who shot Scout overreacted.

”I think (Scout) was having a mental breakdown and didn't know what to do," said Stewart, who wondered why nonlethal force wasn't used. ”The area was secured. There was no one around at risk."

But all it takes is one phone call to 911 with a claim that someone has a gun, I guess.

 

[Skellig Gra]

yeah, and a bat can be leathal, a pen can be leathal, even your fists..... it's not an excuse here

That's a disingenuous argument. There is enough hyperbole going on here already.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Of course they would shoot to kill to stop a fucking terror attack. That was an EXTREME situation.

I agree. Every knife wielding man is an extreme situation. The difference in philosophy between UK and US police is quite large.

What's the context for the part i've bolded. Do you mean in general?

Pretty much. That UK officer had no gun and no good response to a knife wielding man. He got stabbed trying to help and couldn't eliminate the threat because he had no firearm. That knife wielding man was free to continue on stabbing other individuals until the Police with actual guns showed up to take him out.

 

[Instro]

It's reasonable to say the police were justified in using force, if only because he had a knife, but realistically it doesn't sound like they exhausted non-lethal options, or even attempted them. Campus police are supposed to be as well trained and equipped as any as far as I know, so tasers should have been deployed first. They should also be well versed in dealing with people having impaired faculties, or mental breaks, given the environment they are in.

With the new details regarding the knife, and the situation, it sounds increasingly likely that they were trigger happy(surprise?).

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Ah, the femoral artery. That will at least give you an extra minute to explain you're good guy cop by shooting the leg before the suspect bleeds out.

And to those thinking you have time in a knife attack, Google: Tueller

Also, a good rule of thumb is that unless it's a shot to the head or spine the attacker will be doing exactly what they were doing before they've been shot - coming at you. Too much footage of this out there. Even after multiple shots we see attackers still going for upwards of a minute after they've been shot several times.

Most instant stops that do not kill the target are psychological: "fuck I've been shot" (FIBS).

Also plenty of footage of hesitation or nonlethal defensive tools that don't end up well for the defender. Knives are not something you gamble with.

Real life isn't John Wick.

Then the gun seems to be an inadequate weapon for the job. If you have to keep firing the gun with no real assurance that it will stop the assailant in the short term, then why use it in this situation?

Using numbers and effective techniques to get the assailant on the ground, incapacitate and restrain seems more logical. The assailant would not be able to 'keep coming at you' in that instance, and the police wouldn't be stationary and in harm's way while the attacker continues to move forward. An officer may get injured, but that doesn't seem outrageous to me.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I agree. Every knife wielding man is an extreme situation. The difference in philosophy between UK and US police is quite large.

Pretty much. That UK officer had no gun and no good response to a knife wielding man. He got stabbed trying to help and couldn't eliminate the threat because he had no firearm. That knife wielding man was free to continue on stabbing other individuals until the Police with actual guns showed up to take him out.

If you want to focus on that one specific and highly abnormal situation then that's fine, but don't respond with 'pretty much' when I ask if you're talking about things generally. That's like me saying 'if guns are so useful then why didn't they stop 9/11'. You're talking about a planned terrorist attack and comparing it to a single, distressed and irrational individual.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

If you want to focus on that one specific and highly abnormal situation then that's fine, but don't respond with 'pretty much' when I ask if you're talking about things generally. That's like me saying 'if guns are so useful then why didn't they stop 9/11'.

No it's not. At all. Furthermore, I was citing an actual incident showing that a normal police officer without a firearm cannot deal with a knife wielding man. A knife wielding man was involved in that incident, just like a knife wielding man was involved in this incident.

 

[Vicetrailia]

AJC (Atlanta Journal-Constitution) Exclusive: Mom of Georgia Tech student shot by police speaks out



and according to the lawyer:




But all it takes is one phone call to 911 with a claim that someone has a gun, I guess.

Not surprised about the retracted blade. The student wanted to get shot, and the cops obliged him after pretending to care for a little bit.

 

[RoadHazard]

I agree. Every knife wielding man is an extreme situation. The difference in philosophy between UK and US police is quite large.

Pretty much. That UK officer had no gun and no good response to a knife wielding man. He got stabbed trying to help and couldn't eliminate the threat because he had no firearm. That knife wielding man was free to continue on stabbing other individuals until the Police with actual guns showed up to take him out.

Here in Sweden all cops are armed, but they very rarely actually use their guns (happens about 20 times a year, and only about once a year does it end with the suspect being killed). Personally, I think that's the way I want it. Cops who CAN shoot to kill when it's absolutely necessary, but who are trained to solve situations in non-lethal ways whenever possible.

But you and some other people here seem to think it can't work that way in the US. Why? Why are American cops so eager to shoot to kill? I'll tell you: Because they're poorly trained and don't know how else to deal with these situations.

 

[Gravy Boat]

No it's not. At all. Furthermore, I was citing an actual incident showing that a normal police officer without a firearm cannot deal with a knife wielding man. A knife wielding man was involved in that incident, just like a knife wielding man was involved in this incident.

But you're ignoring all the the everyday examples where unarmed police do deal with knives.

 

[Mahonay]

Here in Sweden all cops are armed, but they very rarely actually use their guns (happens about 20 times a year, and about once a year does it end with the suspect being killed). Personally, I think that's the way I want it. Cops who CAN shoot to kill when it's absolutely necessary, but who are trained to solve situations in non-lethal ways whenever possible.

That is how policing is supposed to work.

It's more like the wild west here in the US, where cops are trained to protect their own ass at all costs and worry about the consequences later. Yes, it's a lot more dangerous here to be a cop with the vast proliferation of firearms across the country, but plenty of times in fatal shootings by police the suspects don't even have a gun.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

But you're ignoring all the the everyday examples where unarmed police do deal with knives.

It's very situational. In the case of that UK officer who got stabbed, he was more than likely the only officer trying to take down the knife wielding man. He wasn't properly equipped to handle the threat, which is a complete failure of the policies of that department IMO. That officer should have been outfitted to handle the very real situation of a knife wielding man.

In cases where a lone knife wielding man is isolated, and surrounded by officers, I absolutely would employ less than lethal tactics, if enough time is given to do so. Essentially you have multiple officers with guns ready to fire, and 1 officer employing the less than lethal (pepper balls, taser, etc.)

Highly situational though.

 

[dofry]

Quite frankly, that training is not very good and I'm really uncomfortable with it. The correct first rule of firearms should always be "Don't point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot, and don't shoot anything you don't intend to kill." I really don't like the idea that it's okay to shoot at people. Guns should be treated as lethal in all cases, which is supposed to discourage people from using them in such a cavalier fashion.







This is all fantastic, and it should really be adopted everywhere.

I disagree a bit on that rule. Drawing a gun is to show the possible force. The intent at that point, in Finland, is still not to kill. Escalation goes in steps, like in the US but with more focus on disabling the person. Alive. Not center mass. Unless it goes to that level. That is the point of the gun for a police officer. The less uses, the better of course. Taking a human life is the last resort. And I trust the cops in my country. I actually can.

Even the terrorist who stabbed people in a marketplace in Turku, was shot in the leg.

UK has nice rules though too.

But this thread, I feel like I am taking crazy pills at some replies but at least we are discussing.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I disagree a bit on that rule. Drawing a gun is to show the possible force. The intent at that point, in Finland, is still not to kill. Escalation goes in steps, like in the US but with more focus on disabling the person. Alive. Not center mass. Unless it goes to that level. That is the point of the gun for a police officer. The less uses, the better of course. Taking a human life is the last resort. And I trust the cops in my country. I actually can.

Even the terrorist who stabbed people in a marketplace in Turku, was shot in the leg.

UK has nice rules though too.

But this thread, I feel like I am taking crazy pills at some replies but at least we are discussing.

Imagine living here.

 

[Jmanunknown]

In most of the civilized world this is considered the appropriate response. Shooting someone who's obviously mentally ill because you're too scared to do the job you signed up for (Protect & Serve, remember?) is just scary.

That is because to protect and serve is just pr bs. Police in the US are under no legal obligation to protect its citizens.

 

[Demoskinos]

Suicide by cop should not be so easy. America really needs to get it's shit together when it comes to police training.



Can we please not misgender a dead person?

Multiple people have pointed this out and yet were 10 pages deep and people are still doing it. FFS. Have some respect people.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That is how policing is supposed to work.

It's more like the wild west here in the US, where cops are trained to protect their own ass at all costs and worry about the consequences later. Yes, it's a lot more dangerous here to be a cop with the vast proliferation of firearms across the country, but plenty of times in fatal shootings by police the suspects don't even have a gun.

what consequences, paid vacation?

 

[Mahonay]

what consequences, paid vacation?

The consequences are dead civilians.

But yes, there are typically no serious consequences for police themselves after an unnecessary fatal shooting. Definitely no legal consequences at least. They are seemingly given a "kill anyone for free" card as police. Protect and serve my ass.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Why do cops always shoot to kill? I mean I know the answer but it seems so cowardly to kill for ANY chance of harm to police. And why no non-lethal option for clearly disturbed/suicidal people?

 

[disappeared]

Very unfortunate situation all around. Tragic that such a young advocate of LGBT rights was not able to help themself before meeting such a violent end.

 

[kmag]

I agree. Every knife wielding man is an extreme situation. The difference in philosophy between UK and US police is quite large.

Pretty much. That UK officer had no gun and no good response to a knife wielding man. He got stabbed trying to help and couldn't eliminate the threat because he had no firearm. That knife wielding man was free to continue on stabbing other individuals until the Police with actual guns showed up to take him out.

3 knife wielding men, with fake suicide vests. Given their mentality, one armed police officer in an enclosed space may have easily been overwhelmed. UK police regularly deal with knives (they're the most common weapon here) without injury, slips and trips account for more police injuries than assaults (of which knife attacks are only a portion)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/services/police/statistics.htm

 

[ExVicis]

* in America

Here in Sweden they do shoot people in the leg when the situation calls for it. Only as a very last resort do they shoot to kill.

Sweden authorities do a lot of things different. The comparison between Sweden and the US on these things is basically Day and Night.

 

[Swiggins]

This is a tragedy for sure, but the force was absolutely justified given the circumstances.

Why do cops always shoot to kill? I mean I know the answer but it seems so cowardly to kill for ANY chance of harm to police. And why no non-lethal option for clearly disturbed/suicidal people?

You shoot to kill because shooting to maim/incapacitate is an utterly stupid way to handle any situation. If you put a round in their arm or their leg you've potentially just made them even more dangerous because now they're going to panic, panic creates adrenaline, adrenaline makes people even more unpredictable. If they survive the ordeal well congratulations, you and the department are now being sued by the person you shot because you severely injured/disfigured them. Even if they lose it's gonna cost a phenomenal amount of time, money and stress. It's fucked up that this happens but the alternative (making it illegal/ impossible to sue cops who injure people in the line of duty) is equally absurd.

I find it frustrating that you call police "cowardly" for being forced to use lethal force in a situation like this. At the end of a shift, these guys wanna go home to their wives, kids, animals just like everybody else.

 

[blu]

You grab a knife out of a highly unstable person's hands without ending up in the emergency room. Go on try it, I'll wait.

Anecdotal arguments aside, don't cops get hand-and-baton combat training? Also, don't they carry police batons? Four trained baton users have _very_ good chance against an unstable knife user.

 

[Gravy Boat]

This is a tragedy for sure, but the force was absolutely justified given the circumstances.

How can it be justified if non-lethal force isn't even attempted? This would not be justified in any other developed country.

 

[SmackDaddy]

Give me a police baton and she woulda been disarmed in 5 seconds with a broken knee/collar bone/ wrist. Instead the person is dead, shot through the heart. Horrible police work. Fuck bloodthirsty cops. Pointless waste of life.