entremet
Member
Tell that to US police departments:
This not the norm in the US. Most cops are wearing standard uniforms. Those look like SWAT units.
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Campus police shoot and kill LGBT activist armed with knife at university
- Thread starter Enter The 36 Chambers
- Start date
This not the norm in the US. Most cops are wearing standard uniforms. Those look like SWAT units.
Charles Brandon
Member
yeah I just wanted to post that pic. Hate police violence, love pictures of dudes in cool looking uniforms holding fancy looking guns. Yes, I'm a twat.
Skellig Gra
Member
Not sure what your point is? You don't think non-lethal weapons are useful in self defense?
Yeah. I understand that this guy was warned etc but still in most european countries police would have disarmed him without killimg him.
Temeculan3000
Member
The point is lots of small departments that have no need for SWAT teams have this kind of gear and look for excuses to use it. (Usually for war on drugs related activities).
Then they use the money seized on drug raids to buy more fancy gear.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
* in America
Here in Sweden they do shoot people in the leg when the situation calls for it. Only as a very last resort do they shoot to kill.
Charles Brandon
Member
Isn't there also a system that funnels ex-military gear towards Police departments at knock down prices combined with budgets that have to be used, to be justified?
Sevenfold
Member
Just as likely to happen from a kill shot.
and hasn't this whole 'bring out the car' capability been buffed or reinstated in some way recently? I heard it mentioned as one of Trumps Obama reversals.
You only have so much time to stop them before they get to you. And at a certain close range the guy with the knife has the advantage over a gun (the time it takes to draw and aim will take too long for the time it takes them to close and stab).
Anyways, it would be nice if they were better trained and resources went to training and hiring more cops vs military equipment but that wasn't the situation those cops were in. That's a discussion we should have to stop this stuff from having to happen.
They didn't have that kind of training and possibly not access to the amount of backup they would need. They tried with what they had not to resort to that but in the end I don't blame them for self defense. It's not like it was the first thing they did.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Sounds like textbook suicide by cop. Damn shame that an unstable person felt the need to involve others in their desire to die.
On a side note, it's always interesting to me to see which threads that are mostly just shocking or sad and not really "news" stay open vs which ones get locked. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.
On a side note, it's always interesting to me to see which threads that are mostly just shocking or sad and not really "news" stay open vs which ones get locked. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Gravy Boat
Member
Not if they had done their job properly and cleared the area of bystanders.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Knife vs Body Armor + Guns.
At worst they should have kneecapped them.
At worst they should have kneecapped them.
Sure, but the point still stands that police militarization IS a thing that's happening, and it's leading to more fatalities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/30/does-military-equipment-lead-police-officers-to-be-more-violent-we-did-the-research/?utm_term=.b7fed7d9c59a
On the subject of the OP, I think it's a tragedy that it came down to this, but the on-the-ground situation necessitated a "their life or mine" confrontation. The police should be better trained and equipped to take down assailants non-lethally, and the victim in question should have received the medical help they needed before it ever came to this, and that things need to be improved so that this doesn't happen again.
You could have been hit by a stray bullet fired at center mass too. Just saying. Could have missed or penetrated the target. Realistically, if you weren't in any danger with them shooting center mass you'd likely not be in any more danger with them shooting lower unless they walked like a crab.
CoolZombie360
Member
This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read.
O.v.e.rlord
Banned
Yeah. This.
Temeculan3000
Member
Yup, Trump re-instated the program mentioned in this post:
So that surplus military equipment can be funneled to police departments. Obama had previously stopped this via executive order.
Draw and aim, is this the Wild West? Guns are already drawn when they respond to this shit.
RockTurtle
Member
I remember a situation in dominican republic where there was a crazy guy (kinda skinny and small) with a knife and a bunch of policemen tried to subdue him. If i recall, 3 of them died from injuries before the guy got shot down
You completely missed or ignored this part of my post:
Personally, I would have tried use the tazer. That would be on my escalation tree given the circumstances that this looks like a suicide by cop.
Temeculan3000
Member
Sorry, only European cops are capable of such heroic feats.
I feel bad because obviously this person was going through a lot for it to get to that point, but I can only empathize so much with someone who:
A) doesn't comply with simple orders by police to improve the safety of everyone involved
B) doesn't just let police cuff them instead of resisting and escalating the situation
C) tries to fight, tackle, punch, wrestle, etc an officer
D) runs toward an officer, refuses to drop a weapon, refuses to put their hands up, etc.
I think the institution of the police is very flawed and there needs to be changes to laws and how they are enforced to prevent the arrests of innocent people or people who shouldn't be in prison, but at the end of the day, what is wrong with your survival instinct that you would do any of the things listed above? I don't understand that behavior at all.
A) doesn't comply with simple orders by police to improve the safety of everyone involved
B) doesn't just let police cuff them instead of resisting and escalating the situation
C) tries to fight, tackle, punch, wrestle, etc an officer
D) runs toward an officer, refuses to drop a weapon, refuses to put their hands up, etc.
I think the institution of the police is very flawed and there needs to be changes to laws and how they are enforced to prevent the arrests of innocent people or people who shouldn't be in prison, but at the end of the day, what is wrong with your survival instinct that you would do any of the things listed above? I don't understand that behavior at all.
Sevenfold
Member
Ta. That's some scary shit.
holygeesus
Banned
I'd contend there are more criminals with guns on the street than police carrying them.
It also doesn't explain why our armed police don't kill people armed with knives and yours do, recent terrorism aside of course.
That would be ideal, but I'm not sure if I can fault GTPD for that. There are tons of dorm rooms on this street, not sure if windows are bulletproof or not. Also, there is a dining commons with lots of outdoor space right next to where this went down where people were studying/eating. It all happened so fast and there were a lot of people in the area. Sadly not sure what could've realistically been done.
This is true. Risk is there either way. But risk of missing is higher when you're aiming for limbs instead of center mass. I understand why they didn't take the (extra) chance.
it was irrelevant because while you said it's where things went wrong you also went off a checklist of why nothing else but shooting the person would have worked, beside rubber bullets and bean bags. Oh and you critiqued multiple cops giving orders, which while fair was probably not the deal breaker in this case, the person was never going to follow orders nor was the person shot trying to follow conflicting orders from several officers.
So then why list everything as unreliable?
Temeculan3000
Member
Training. Knives & guns get grouped together as deadly weapons. Comply with every order or get shot. People historically haven't cared if someone with a knife & not complying gets shot, unless they have mental illness. The issue of dealing with the mentally ill is causing people to ask questions on how our police are trained.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You're being unrealistic if you expect any security individual at any level to attempt H2H takedowns of an armed suspect.
This person forced them to use lethal force.
While I'm not upset that they didn't try to shoot the legs I think some of ya'll are exaggerating the shot here, imagine yourself walking forward calmly and look at your legs, if someone is facing directly in front of you, even while you're walking forward your legs are almost a single unbroken target, some people even hit their knees while they walk! So while yes, there is a slightly higher chance of missing, it could pass between them, if you're a shitty shot and pull to the left or right I guess you can't get lucky and hit an arm while shooting for the legs, but you'd kinda have to suck to miss both legs at a person walking towards you, and if you pull high and hit them in the chest, well, you tried.
Now, taking a shot at a leg at someone moving while from their side, that's a significantly smaller and harder shot.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Looks high to me too. The wikipedia figures are 10 year old estimates from a source I don't recognise. The Guardian pulled some data a few years back that shows licensed ownership at about 3.3 guns per 100 people which sounds more like it, and about 80% of those are shotguns in rural areas. There's only an estimated couple of thousand illegal firearms too.
So true figure probably something like 3.5 guns per 100 people. Be difficult to get to 6.6 even if you included the army.
On the street? None.
In their homes? Nearly none - in rural areas maybe one in 100.
Osukaa
Member
Shoot first check if they're alive after. I'm sure the knife musta been a special type that can cut through any kind of protection they had on....
Shouting
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
i'm baffled by how many people are defending this kind of behavior...
arguments like "it's not hollywood" are just dumb, just watch how other countries are doing it, it's fucking simple! we're watching real police works, not some movies when we say that they should disable the person wielding a knife...
also the argument "if a guy with a knife run at me, i'll shoot him".... well you're not a fucking cop, and you're alone, and you have no training, of course you're gonna act like this...
arguments like "it's not hollywood" are just dumb, just watch how other countries are doing it, it's fucking simple! we're watching real police works, not some movies when we say that they should disable the person wielding a knife...
also the argument "if a guy with a knife run at me, i'll shoot him".... well you're not a fucking cop, and you're alone, and you have no training, of course you're gonna act like this...
Mammoth Jones
Member
This is dumb. knives kill. I'll argue they could have tried a beanbag round to thrchest but their top concern is keeping someone in that situation from running off and attacking someone else. Sucks you gotta drop the knife in that situation if you expect to live.
I believe it. Knives are no joke. You don't let that shit near you.
The Futurist
Member
Didn't want to comment without watching the video.
Police had enough time and distance to avoid lethal force.
With that said, at some point you have stop walking towards someone pointing a gun at you.
American police are poorly trained and too quick on the trigger. Everyone knows that.
So many of these deaths can be avoided if people just comply with police. Saying "shoot me" and walking towards someone with a gun pointed at you usually ends one way.
To anyone downplaying a knife as a lethal weapon. You're being stupid.
Police had enough time and distance to avoid lethal force.
With that said, at some point you have stop walking towards someone pointing a gun at you.
American police are poorly trained and too quick on the trigger. Everyone knows that.
So many of these deaths can be avoided if people just comply with police. Saying "shoot me" and walking towards someone with a gun pointed at you usually ends one way.
To anyone downplaying a knife as a lethal weapon. You're being stupid.
Suicide by cop should not be so easy. America really needs to get it's shit together when it comes to police training.
Can we please not misgender a dead person?
Can we please not misgender a dead person?
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Ok, watched the video, and yeah, that did not look like a situation where anyone had to die. Those cops were so obviously scared, and so obviously inadequately trained for this situation. So they do the easiest thing, and shoot to kill. In most other developed countries I'm convinced this person would have been incapacitated but still alive.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Shit. My bad.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Glad the cops ended the threat to the bystanders and themselves with no one else getting hurt.
Person had a lethal weapon, I don't have a problem with cops responding with lethal force. LOL @ "shoot in the leg!" Yeah, ask Sean Taylor how that worked out. And there's no guarantee a taser or spray would have brought the person down right away. There's also no guarantee that once blinded/dazed by one of those, that the person doesn't harm one of the bystanders since they are now blind. How could cops guarantee this mentally unhinged person with a deadly weapon couldn't harm bystanders or the cops themselves? Put the person down. They did that. And they tried to talk the person down first. Can't put any blame on police here.
Person had a lethal weapon, I don't have a problem with cops responding with lethal force. LOL @ "shoot in the leg!" Yeah, ask Sean Taylor how that worked out. And there's no guarantee a taser or spray would have brought the person down right away. There's also no guarantee that once blinded/dazed by one of those, that the person doesn't harm one of the bystanders since they are now blind. How could cops guarantee this mentally unhinged person with a deadly weapon couldn't harm bystanders or the cops themselves? Put the person down. They did that. And they tried to talk the person down first. Can't put any blame on police here.
Their mindset of why they did it. Not mine. I broke it down on why I feel they did it, not how I would have done it.
I would have tried everything I possibly could before taking a life. I did it in one particular case where I guy charged me with a bat, from about 25 feet. The time it took me to pull my tazer instead of my weapon I was within swinging distance. I put that guys life above mine in what was basically a blink of an eye.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Police in other developed nations constantly deal with similar situations without killing the suspect. But in America that's apparently impossible.
Most any other western country and she'd be alive. Given her position I LGBT she was clearly motivated politically and while obviously disturbed never looked like she was a real threat but trying to goad them.
That they couldn't contain the situation or use non violent suppression or worst case shoot her in the leg as other police forces are trained to do is another inditememt of the frankly inappropriate trading US officers seem to receive.
Nobody had to be killed here but due to cultural acceptance they were.
That they couldn't contain the situation or use non violent suppression or worst case shoot her in the leg as other police forces are trained to do is another inditememt of the frankly inappropriate trading US officers seem to receive.
Nobody had to be killed here but due to cultural acceptance they were.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Didn't realize Sean Taylor was a police officer that should've been trained to protect anyone other than himself and his loved ones.
Christ, people are stupid here.