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Armband-wearing Nazi roams Seattle instigating, gets KOed, removes armband and leaves
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MHWilliams
Member
I find myself losing little sleep over this. A man openly espousing Nazi philosophy - which is by no means a violence-free one - was punched. This does not bother me.
It's a local, civil matter. At least in this case, the police will likely step in and charge the hitter.
I don't worry about any slippery slope. You're at the bottom of the hill already.
To define this quite clearly, Nazis and Neo-Nazis are not a difference of opinion. It is not a philosophy that you "live and let live". I would not punch a person, but I again ask why people are so keen to uphold a "civil injustice" in the name of some weird idea of civility. Civility isn't tea and treaties, it's ensuring that your fellow man is equal and protected. There are limits to tolerance and in the name of acting "civil", we've somehow come to this idea that anything goes. Tolerating hate and intolerance doesn't make you a more moral person, it merely makes you an enabler of intolerance.
In relation to this situation, on a legal basis a crime was committed. That should be handled legally. On any other moral or ethical level, I find no such problem.
If you feel this is a problem, then I endeavor all - citizen, media, politician - to speak out against Nazism in as firm terms as possible. Because anything less is malpractice. Anything less, any hemming and hawwing about "extreme opinions", and you're simply opening the door for a violent, hateful philosophy, that will in many cases, harm others in a far greater manner than they'll probably harm you. It's not enough to say you dislike Nazis. That is the place you should be starting. That is the cancer. The punch is a civil matter, a crime. Nazism as a viewpoint taking root? A far greater crime.
It's a local, civil matter. At least in this case, the police will likely step in and charge the hitter.
I don't worry about any slippery slope. You're at the bottom of the hill already.
To define this quite clearly, Nazis and Neo-Nazis are not a difference of opinion. It is not a philosophy that you "live and let live". I would not punch a person, but I again ask why people are so keen to uphold a "civil injustice" in the name of some weird idea of civility. Civility isn't tea and treaties, it's ensuring that your fellow man is equal and protected. There are limits to tolerance and in the name of acting "civil", we've somehow come to this idea that anything goes. Tolerating hate and intolerance doesn't make you a more moral person, it merely makes you an enabler of intolerance.
In relation to this situation, on a legal basis a crime was committed. That should be handled legally. On any other moral or ethical level, I find no such problem.
If you feel this is a problem, then I endeavor all - citizen, media, politician - to speak out against Nazism in as firm terms as possible. Because anything less is malpractice. Anything less, any hemming and hawwing about "extreme opinions", and you're simply opening the door for a violent, hateful philosophy, that will in many cases, harm others in a far greater manner than they'll probably harm you. It's not enough to say you dislike Nazis. That is the place you should be starting. That is the cancer. The punch is a civil matter, a crime. Nazism as a viewpoint taking root? A far greater crime.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Again. So we take matters into our own hands? What do you want? A violent rebellion?
How many of you guys are actually minorities? Serious question. Do you really want us to take up arms and start going up to white supremacists and assaulting them?
Black people in this country have more right than anyone else to fight back against the justice system and white supremacy, do you want the 50 million black americans to take matters into their own hands? what the hell do you think that's going to accomplish?
Kill Your Masters
Member
White moderates have an immense fear of their bubble bursting.
Of course if they are being physically attacked or threatening likely violence.
How did I know this would be Daryl Davis lol. He always comes up. There should be no expectation that minorities mirror his actions, which haven't proven to be very efficient in the grand scheme of things.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Of course I would
And so would most people in my country. We would trust the police to take care of it.
But violence is not as ingrained in the Swedish culture as in the American cultural identity. (For example, if you kill a burglar here you would be charged with manslaughter and most people would agree that this is correct.) Plus the police and justice system are not parts of the structural oppression of minorities here either so I feel like they can be trusted to deal both with nazis and ISIS recruiters
WhiskerFrisker
Member
They don't? I'm sorry I didn't know about that. Iirc European countries started voting for anti-racism laws since 2008 or something. It truly is a big problem then and I don't see it being solved under the current US government.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Part of me would love for that to happen, but I'm not American and probably wouldn't live through the repercussions. Still, I sure as shit wouldn't blame them.
So does this, so?
I'm still going to celebrate the dude that punched the Nazi, buy him a beer and pinch in for legal help if he needs it. I don't give a singly flying fuck that what the puncher did was "illegal". Laws are not morality. What the dude did was 100% a good thing.
It's a shame Trump cut funding to the support groups that help people leave white supremacist movements and had the justice focus on radical Islamic terrorism and not right wing terrorism.
I needed this.
For people like this dude, fuck non-violence. Nazism is something you should be afraid to openly espouse for exactly this reason.
Night night.
For people like this dude, fuck non-violence. Nazism is something you should be afraid to openly espouse for exactly this reason.
Night night.
Spiritreaver
Member
Out of curiosity, of all the people who suggest talking it out or finding other avenues of dealing with fascism. How much of your free time do you use to protest, argue, debate, and genuinely fight fascism/Nazis your way?
It's one thing to critique other people for doing something, but I wanna see some examples of "practice what you preach".
It's one thing to critique other people for doing something, but I wanna see some examples of "practice what you preach".
Nabs
Member
plagiarize
Banned
Yup. And it would be considered by the court were you facing criminal charges for punching someone. You would be treated much more leniently than if you had just gone up and punched a random stranger.
And I don't imagine that anyone would argue with this.
It is logically *less* wrong to punch a Nazi than it is to punch a random stranger.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that progress was made in spite of those acts rather than because of them. It seems like the more important part involved drafting a constitution, electing just leaders that aren't corrupt, etc.
Raven117
Member
Show me the legal statute that you believe this man in the grey sweatshirt would cite to IF prosecutors brought assault and battery charges against him?
Name it. Moreover, please cite to the caselaw in the state of Washington that fleshes out this idea that the "self-defenser" could punch first.
My only point I've been trying to make on this thread is that "self-defense" is very specific legal defense and people are casually throwing the term "violence" around that it somehow invokes self-defense statutes. It doesn't...not when it is NOT physical.
Many folks fail to realize that you cannot run a society like this when states of being are acts of violence.
Good not agree more actually. This is a good post. It acknowledges what the law says...but you made a judgment upon whether the law is just. This is good IMO.
Its just important to bear in mind the difference between laws and morality. Some folks on this thread are confusing the two or ignoring the bigger picture so they can play "internet tough guy" and punch a nazi.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You have a bunch of people on GAF saying that they don't think hate speech laws are a good idea because "muh slippery slope." same thing happens when we have white supremacists in the white house. You know what's trending on twitter? #TrumpsAWhiteSupremacist, the U.S. is in a sorry state atm.
I want Nazis cowering in a fucking corner. Not parading down the street, proudly harassing people.
Could wearing a swastika in the United States in 2017 be considered "fighting words"? According to wikipedia wearing a symbol is not technically "fighting words" but I think a large percentage of people would disagree with the court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words
Vigilante violence won't fix anything. It will cement in their warped thinking that everything they thought was correct. The idea that you can't heal this sick ideology is 100% wrong:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486...0-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486...0-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
Messofanego
Banned
Why is it that people think racism and nazism only effect minorities, and that minorities are the only ones allowed to be upset about it? It makes no difference if someone is a minority when it comes to nazis or racism. They're bad for society, full stop. The nazis killed a lot of people just like me. Racism is damaging to society, regardless of who the target is. I don't need to be a minority to believe these things, just a decent human being.
No one's asked you, or anyone else, to lift a finger towards a Nazi.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
We have very different meanings for what constitutes a good argument then.
Dude looks pretty white to me.
*Nazi gets punched*
"BUT WHAT IF PEOPLE DO A VIOLENT REBELLION AND 50 MILLION BLACK PEOPLE TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY?"
i swear, some of the fucking hypotheticals some people managed to conjure up in this thread are nothing short of amazing.
Like, jeez, you might as well go "Where do we stop? Anyday now we will ilegally round up all Nazis, put them on a concentration camp, then send the concentration camp to space, then nuke that concentration camp, then take the ashes and put them in the trash, then burn the trash?"
BlackDoomShadow
Member
The fact that Daryl Davis has become a revered figure for the alt-right should be a big red flag about whether or not his methods actually work.
The police say the nazi was instigating fights and he most certainly found one. So you can stop with the poor nazi bullshit.
Edit:
Ah so that's what you're actually afraid of here. Not nazis, but some imaginary uprising of us scary negroes.
Carry on.
Username1198
Member
I'm a minority. And these fucking white supremacist nazi fucks wanna kick me out of this country becuase I'm brown and only because I'm brown.
I'm nonviolent but would definetly take up arms against these nazi fucks in a second. And yes, if it takes 50 million poc to rise against these fucks then so be it. Talkng isn't going to work. They have no rationale reason for hating us other than our skin color. And cal the cops? Lol they murder us for fun and get paid leave fuck them as well, I bet the police have hella secret nazi members anyways.
Netherscourge
Banned
People who want unconditional physical violence against Nazi's will have to take that upon themselves to act out. Nobody should have to be forced to do it, nor condone it.
That's how I look at it.
1. It's OK to hate Nazis and not condone punching them in the face.
2. It's also OK to hate Nazi's and gleefully cheer them being punched in the face.
Yes, you can have different opinions on how to handle the situation and still be 100% against Nazism.
It's also OK to disagree with how to deal with it.
I hope people here understand THAT viewpoint and stop the bullshit backstabbing.
That's how I look at it.
1. It's OK to hate Nazis and not condone punching them in the face.
2. It's also OK to hate Nazi's and gleefully cheer them being punched in the face.
Yes, you can have different opinions on how to handle the situation and still be 100% against Nazism.
It's also OK to disagree with how to deal with it.
I hope people here understand THAT viewpoint and stop the bullshit backstabbing.
Hard to parse what you're saying.
I'll just (presumably) agree with you that Nazis are a genocidal hate group that do not deserve the slightest sympathy.
Earthbound64
Banned
You "Don't know what to feel about this," but had to get that post in 2 minutes after the thread was posted (did you even read the entire OP and have time to process it in 2 minutes? That might have been a good start) to declare that.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
People sure love to go out of their way to defend Nazis
Of course that's a slippery slope. As soon as you say "it's morally right to punch [people fitting description X]" you've gotten onto a slippery slope. I have a zero tolerance policy for self-righteous, extrajudicial violence. (And a low tolerance policy for legal violence while we're on the subject.)
This doesn't mean violence isn't sometimes the lesser evil, or the least evil, or many options. If your choice is "allow genocide to occur" or "punch one guy" then clearly punching one guy is the correct choice. But that doesn't make it morally good.
Nabs
Member
this shit yet again?
Messofanego
Banned
Here we go, was waiting for someone to cite Darryl Davis as the way to solve racism!
Now just need MLK Jr to be dropped.
LucidMomentum
Member
I love how this story got weaponized.
Guys we just have to hope they're the right kind of Nazi to be converted to not being a huge piece of shit!
TRY HARDER MINORITIES, YOU AREN'T DOING ENOUGH ALREADY BY SURVIVING THE DELUGE OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM AND MODERATE FINGER WAGGING
JUST TRY HARDER GUYS
GUYS
SMH
We heard reports of a man acting like a belligerent Nazi, and by the time we got to him he may have found out that keeping it real doesn't always go right.
Life comes at you fast.
ZeroGravity
Member
Perhaps because of opinions exactly like this who write him and his methods off. He's only one person. He's not going to change an entire nation by himself. But neither is anyone else with the use of violent force.
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