How are they not related? They don't want a racist to benefit from their product. I am glad they are standing up while the rest of the industry ignores the rampant bigotry in it
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Eurogamer: Firewatch review-bombed following PewDiePie racism incident
- Thread starter Coxy100
- Start date
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Nice, I'll grab this later tonight.
They could've just put out a statement or sth if they were that concerned about being associated with PewDiePie. Issuing a DMCA takedown notice was entirely unnecessary and just the wrong way to go, really. (Again, though, that doesn't mean that I think it gives people the right to review bomb Firewatch because it doesn't.)
oliverandm
Member
This may seem an unpopular opinion, and I am not defending Pewdiepie even if you're prepared to ignorere my statement and rather put words in my mouth... But here goes:
Pewdiepies career was put at stake at the hand of the devs will to put forth a DMCA claim. It stood to inspire a takedown of a man's living and business due to his foolishness, WHICH I AM NOT CONDONING. However, I didn't find the Firewatch devs response perticularly fair, as he could simply choose to ask for takedowns of the videos. Instead he started a feud, which seems just to some, but was very critical and harsh.
The response, through this review-bombing, could be seen as a logical (maybe no rational) response...
Pewdiepies career was put at stake at the hand of the devs will to put forth a DMCA claim. It stood to inspire a takedown of a man's living and business due to his foolishness, WHICH I AM NOT CONDONING. However, I didn't find the Firewatch devs response perticularly fair, as he could simply choose to ask for takedowns of the videos. Instead he started a feud, which seems just to some, but was very critical and harsh.
The response, through this review-bombing, could be seen as a logical (maybe no rational) response...
Legitimate criticism is protected under by Fair Use, Lets Plays aren't. The only slippery slope here is if this goes to court and it doesn't rule in favour of content creators.
It was put at stake because he choose to be a racist. Stop whitewashing his role in his own problems
Gotdatmoney
Member
I'm pretty sure they would win but Nintendo is this giant ass corporation and no one really wants to go down that path with them. Fingers crossed someone does but your position is fair.
I would like you to point me to 3 examples of this happening. Because if you think you arent making a leap of faith I think this is a pointless discussion.
Hey maybe black people work in the industru and dont want to be lukewarm on being called fucking niggers. As a gamer I personally support coming down hard on idiots like PDP. That's just me though.
Poodlestrike
Banned
PDP shouldn't have a career. He shouldn't have an audience, he shouldn't have anything. Ditto all the fuckwit youtubers who've sided with him or said similar stuff. These people don't DESERVE a place in society, and they certainly don't deserve wealth and fame.
wartime1020
Member
Racism isn't "foolishness."
Ah the old "I'm not defending a racist, but..."
Pewdiepie's "career" deserves to be at stake for his comments. He brought this upon himself, not the devs of Firewatch. If anything, they are taking a congratulatory first step at artists being able to control the use of their artwork, especially in the hands of "influencers" that might be subject to outbursts of racism as a natural reaction. I hope more devs follow suit.
His career was put at stake well before the DACA take down by Campo Santo and was entirely of his own doing because of his big mouth and his racist "jokes". He's entirely responsible for all this and trying to shift the blame to others is just sad.
Some people can't understand that the whole world doesn't revolve around PDP. This decision wasn't about him. It was about setting boundaries and standards for what is to be accepted in our society. Just imagine if no one reacted to this giant YouTuber saying the n word.
Honestly, if PDP recognized his mistake he should've come out and backed Campo Santo.
Honestly, if PDP recognized his mistake he should've come out and backed Campo Santo.
Good.
PewDiePie is a millionaire making money off of other people's work. He chose to operate in a legal grey area, and it bit him in the ass. Corporations are not required to protect your shady career.
The real problem is the DMCA itself.
Weltall Zero
Member
If the publisher's actions reflect on the specific game you're reviewing (gameplay or otherwise; ex. DRM, DLC practices, etc.), then leaving a bad review is legitimate.
If the publisher's actions are completely unrelated to the game you're reviewing, then leaving a bad review is, in my eyes, not legitimate (and I don't make a distinction between "legitimate" and "actually a good thing to do"). You're abusing a tool for a different purpose than intended, and in the process, hurting not just the publisher, but the developer, other customers, and Steam itself.
I'm all for fighting shitty corporate practices, but not by using shitty practices in turn.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You are totally condoning PDP antics.
Also, you use someone elses products to promote racism, they should try to dismantle you. I'm sad it hasn't happened more.
Nitpicker_Red
Member
The company's PR has always been part of the reviews of their games unfortunately, since it's a recommendation to buy = give them money, which is what any boycot would target.
There's the dimension of not wanting to be associated with a streamer who uses racist slurs,
and which tools to use to avoid association.
Two tools:
-contact the streamer and ask him to remove his videos (require human interaction, but it works well)
-send a DMCA takedown notice
The second tool should always be preceded by the first one on Youtube, unless your express goal is to give the channel three copyright strikes and take it down completely instead of just removing the association with your brand.
Vanaman mentionned that he would ask other devs to do like Campo Santo to multiply the copyright strikes. (Good luck on that.) PDP allegedly delisted himself the video after the tweet, so it can easily be interpreted as explicitly wanting to take PDP down with DMCA tools instead of just the video. Just like the graph shows that both types of reviews rates increased tenfold, that would make some people angry, and some people happy I guess.
There's the dimension of not wanting to be associated with a streamer who uses racist slurs,
and which tools to use to avoid association.
Two tools:
-contact the streamer and ask him to remove his videos (require human interaction, but it works well)
-send a DMCA takedown notice
The second tool should always be preceded by the first one on Youtube, unless your express goal is to give the channel three copyright strikes and take it down completely instead of just removing the association with your brand.
Vanaman mentionned that he would ask other devs to do like Campo Santo to multiply the copyright strikes. (Good luck on that.) PDP allegedly delisted himself the video after the tweet, so it can easily be interpreted as explicitly wanting to take PDP down with DMCA tools instead of just the video. Just like the graph shows that both types of reviews rates increased tenfold, that would make some people angry, and some people happy I guess.
Divorced from the fact that I'm sure many if not most of these people are review-bombing pretty much because Campo Santo called a spade a spade... I have no idea how you can define "good" review-bombing versus bad review-bombing. If you think that Campo Santo abusing the DMCA to try and hurt PDP was wrong, is it acceptable to review-bomb then?
The graph itself shows that there's just as much of a "I approve of Campo Santo's political views so I'm going to vote it up" brigading.* So at that point reviews are meaningless and I'm not sure what point is expressed. It's using a mechanism never designed for the type of commentary people are using it for, and making it harder for legitimate uses of feedback related to the actual game.
*Actually the graph is one of the best recent examples I can think of charting how backlash and anti-backlash feed off each other. There's the immediate negative reaction to Campo Santo's actions, followed by a positive feedback spike, and then a response in the other direction. The negative reaction seems more sustained, and certainly the initial backlash was greater, so I wonder if this is a pattern with many similar backlash incidents—is the inciting anger always going to be greater?
Future PhaZe
Member
Cool
I'll counter with a purchase of Firewatch
I'll counter with a purchase of Firewatch
Fried Food
Banned
On the up side I can't imagine they are selling many copies these days anyways. Even fewer by people that don't know they want the game. Still pathetic though
Wont someone think of the racist millionaire who got his wealth playing video games on the internet while yelling rape jokes
His business shouldnt be a thing at this point considering people's careers ended for much less
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
"foolishness"...
...
...
...
...
His career was not put at stake because an indy dev uses a DMCA takedown. his career is at stake because he is a fucking racist that apologizes and some months after he does the same thing he promised never doing again.
So yeah, fuck that piece of shit.
Sunset Samurai
Member
No one owes pdp anything. Pdp is not entitled to get paid independent of his actions.
The "they're just doing this for attention" thing is so dishonest to me. The game has sold over 1.5 million copies, it did 500K in the first month, and the developers have said it was beyond their wildest expectations. It was also made by a very small team, they don't need some controversy to try and drum up sales when they've already been wildly successful.
But no, the only reason someone would stand up to a racist is to make money of course.
But no, the only reason someone would stand up to a racist is to make money of course.
Imo review bombing shouldn't be done for any reason.
Who is saying this?
oliverandm
Member
Okay so my comment had about the most foreseeable outcome imagineable.
Here is the thing though:
1. Pewdiepie isn't a racist. He is an idiot. There's a stark difference, but I agree that his abuse of the n-word deserves consequence. You may consider him racist all you want, but then you're giving the word the power that you ultimately despise; by that logic, anyone who is called the n-word should be considered all that goes with it historically, and that's what we're against right? It isn't rational by any means. If all you see in Pewdiepie is a racist, there's no point in a discussion. His liberal use of the word is more likely a result of a poiseneous environment and a background where he lived in a country that doesn't share the same history and culture as the USA. There for his understanding of the word may be limited. But he is a grown man, and that's why I think he still deserves the consequence.
2: I wasn't being apologetic on Pewdiepies behalf. What does he need me for?! I was saying that this review-bombing is a result of a careless act. This notion that all done with good intend frees you from consequence is self-centered. It's the same logic that criminals work by. Firewatch and it's developers DO NOT DESERVE THIS, but there were more reasonable ways to get their message across, which might have prevented something like this in the first place, and I hope it reverses for their sake, because as you're pointing out: Pewdiepie has a fanbase that defends him. Not because he is a racist, but because his content entertains them.
Now I am leaving this discussion. I see the outcome and I am not interested in offending, because I won't benefit. I am not on GAF for politics either way.
Here is the thing though:
1. Pewdiepie isn't a racist. He is an idiot. There's a stark difference, but I agree that his abuse of the n-word deserves consequence. You may consider him racist all you want, but then you're giving the word the power that you ultimately despise; by that logic, anyone who is called the n-word should be considered all that goes with it historically, and that's what we're against right? It isn't rational by any means. If all you see in Pewdiepie is a racist, there's no point in a discussion. His liberal use of the word is more likely a result of a poiseneous environment and a background where he lived in a country that doesn't share the same history and culture as the USA. There for his understanding of the word may be limited. But he is a grown man, and that's why I think he still deserves the consequence.
2: I wasn't being apologetic on Pewdiepies behalf. What does he need me for?! I was saying that this review-bombing is a result of a careless act. This notion that all done with good intend frees you from consequence is self-centered. It's the same logic that criminals work by. Firewatch and it's developers DO NOT DESERVE THIS, but there were more reasonable ways to get their message across, which might have prevented something like this in the first place, and I hope it reverses for their sake, because as you're pointing out: Pewdiepie has a fanbase that defends him. Not because he is a racist, but because his content entertains them.
Now I am leaving this discussion. I see the outcome and I am not interested in offending, because I won't benefit. I am not on GAF for politics either way.
Gotdatmoney
Member
And you out here trying to say you aint defending PDP. Ayyyy lmao. Miss me with this bullshit.
Oh please.
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/thi...-race-and-it-makes-for-uncomfortable-reading/
Why don't you post this on your main account.
This whole, "no guys, europe doesn't HAVE racism!" BS is tired as shit.
"It's not the racist's fault, it's the people fighting against them who are to blame!" Get out of here with that nonsense.
BigBoss007
Member
The gaming world is full of kids without personality.
No surprise in here.
No surprise in here.
Castef
Banned
Oh, this.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
TimeEffect
Member
Actually I can see its usefulness
Sometimes people need to be warned about a sudden scummy move
Unfortunately it got taken advantage of here
For someone not defending PDP, you are doing a lot of defending. And PDP being racist isn't politics.
And the "I said bullshit i don't want to or can't defend, time for the escape pod" man this shit is straight out of a playbook
Mr. Poolman
Member
I'm utterly baffled that people are just figuring out that actions have consequences.
PDP's defenders want him to move on without consequences for his actions.
Just a single sentence:
Grow the fuck up.
PDP's defenders want him to move on without consequences for his actions.
Just a single sentence:
Grow the fuck up.
oliverandm
Member
Again it's putting words in my mouth and twisting my message to your own benefit. Why would I want to talk with you about this, if I am setup to become a bad guy which ever way I do this. You have no idea what I do for a living, what my background is, if I even care about Pewdiepie etc.
Yes I am defending Pewdiepies right to exist and have a career in spite of his idiocy. I don't think his use of the word had ill intention, but as I said earlier: good or bad intent doesn't make something free of consequence. I think he should be punished for his actions. But not to the degree some of you want.
Initially, I was trying to express concern regarding the developers who are now experiencing a backlash due to their actions.
In any case this should be left to the right authority to decide. Goodbye and good day.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Yeah PDP has some major issues to work through. Hopefully he's genuine in his claim to want to be "better" but nobody can say for sure.
The thing is he isn't just going to disappear. Unfortunately he has a large audience and many fans that are predisposed to give him the benefit of the doubt. Now that may become less and less as he continues to fuck up, but he's not just some random dude with 20k subscribers who can fade into obscurity.
Because he has this kind of momentum, this kind of prior fame, hopefully he actually is learning and growing up and trying to be a better person. I said the same for JonTron but he seems to have been far less apologetic and understood a lot less about why what he said was wrong.
The best outcome of this nonsense is that fans of his see from his example and take it as a lesson in what not to do so.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
This is so shitty.Suur Tõll;249319785 said:Even more astoundingly awful than posting negative reviews to discredit an author's work to avenge the author's actions elsewhere is downvoting other people's positive reviews. It's equivalent to berating and shaming someone for being happy.
For example, a review posted on Steam today (not by me) contained the following paragraphs:
Currently, the header states "7 of 22 people (32%) found this review helpful". That means that 15 people have thus far decided it's OK to take a big dump on the reviewer's deeply personal connection to the game. Or, equally likely, they didn't even read it before downvoting - which is almost just as depressing.
As the majority of this mob likely consists of teenagers, 38-year-old me can't help but be concerned for the future of humanity. I know there are far more distressing things in the world than review bombing, but on the other hand it's just one more example of the herd mentality so prevalent in the world.
I am trying to raise my children to think independently, but on some days that task seems more futile than others.
All the shitty reviews have thousands of upvotes too. Normally, even very popular reviews only have votes in the hundreds. This was a huge mob effort over... what? Defending a racist youtuber.
Fucking hell.
What the fuck is this nonsense?
Of course we get the "now I'm leaving" because hey, cowardly mouthbreathers always want to say their piece without having to deal with the aftermath.
In the off-chance that you don't get banned and actually peek back here: if the n-word comes to you as easily and naturally as it does to PDP, you are a racist. Living in Sweden is no excuse. He's not fucking isolated, he's an internet millionaire with millions of US viewers. As for "giving power to the word you hate"... GTFO with that nonsense holy fuck.
I'm certainly more interested than I was. I'll probably end up getting it!
Did you even understand what did you just wrote?
He didn't know that the word was used as a derogatory term used against Black people...
---
If any company uses DCMA takedowns to remove criticism I will be the first to speak out against them. Had PDP reviewed their game and they conveniently decided to take down his review video, I would be calling foul. If any company does this, we will all be up in arms.
But these things did not happen.
They did a DCMA takedown because they don't want to be associated with a racist.
The "Slippery slope" argument is itself a slippery slope. ("if we allow gays to marry soon people will be marrying their cats and dogs") I see no reason to believe that this takedown will lead to the suppression of critique or review. At most I see it leading to further demonetization of racists.
Instead of getting upset about a possible future issues, perhaps we can focus on the actions that led to this takedown in the first place. The actions of PDP.
And if it does lead to actual suppression in the future, then we will fight. PDP's N-words are not the hill to die on.
7DollarHagane
Banned
It's possible to think pdp is trash and also think that campo Santo did the wrong thing, you know. Publishers can be legally in the right for their use of dmca but still cause frustration among consumers.
It shouldn't be assumed that anyone who isn't 100% on board with campo Santo's actions is also in support of PDP or a racist.
Transistor
Banned
I already owned Firewatch on PS4 but I bought an extra copy on PC to support them
Hamster Plugin
Member
I already suggested this last week in another thread, but at this point GAF, some game developers and other liberal sources need to start organizing review bombings of our own. Valve is not interested in doing anything about these constant alt-right attacks (this happened previously on AC Origins Steam forum) so it's up for the left wing to take action. A counter-movement is required.
Post left-wing troll reviews, something like "10/10 trumptards get triggered" and send the lefty mob to mass upvote that as "helpful" and mass downvote all the alt-righters.
Post left-wing troll reviews, something like "10/10 trumptards get triggered" and send the lefty mob to mass upvote that as "helpful" and mass downvote all the alt-righters.