Turin Turambar
Member
Diablo is an Action RPG. Mind you, action RPGs aren't a subgenre of RPGs, though people believe that, it's more a variation of action games.
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Real PC RPGs Are For Nerds
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
Diablo is an Action RPG. Mind you, action RPGs aren't a subgenre of RPGs, though people believe that, it's more a variation of action games.
Bigger than its been in a long time and far more diverse than it has ever been?
Handy Fake
Member
N00bs who call n00bs noobs are n00bs.
Nikodemos
Member
Yes. Action RPG's arrived at the RPG point via the action route, not the other way around. Fundamentally, they're still more 'action' than RPG.
Same with many games in the genre unfairly blobbed together as 'jRPG'. They arrived at the RPG point via the relatively linear story-based adventure route.
He might have lost a few subscribers but won a lot of new potential ones who didnt even know who he was. In terms of marketing is a pretty nice tradeoff, specially when you can write everyone of the critics off as zelda fanboys who got butthurt, just like people here are doing.
Concerning your quote, two different arguments but feel free to mix and match my arguments to suit your narrative as needed.
zero is only a state of mind
unless you're 0
im sure you'll provide receipts, ya?
I dont realy get the snooty delivery on the Diablo point. Most fans I know of the games don't even consider them rpgs and would find it absurd to consider them one. Aren't the roots of Diablo more intertwined with action games like Gauntlet and not traditional tabletop rpgs at all? I don't know that throwing systems and a skinners box onto gauntlet makes an rpg, but the term has become so diluted in recent years Im not sure the distinction really matters anymore vs the 90s when this debate that never happened Jim is making fun of was supposed to have taken place.
Ff is pretty cut and dry though, I think? Comes from dq which came from Ultima. Pretty pared down comparatively, but you can't do Ultima as it's intended on a pad and DQ reflected that.
Ff is pretty cut and dry though, I think? Comes from dq which came from Ultima. Pretty pared down comparatively, but you can't do Ultima as it's intended on a pad and DQ reflected that.
And yet games like Pillars, Wasteland 2, and D:OS are on consoles, right now.
Sorry, but I don't buy this argument that it's the gamepads fault rather than how devs choose to work with it.
TheRedSnifit
Member
I mean, even with Obsidian and such the publishers are stepping in and forcing them to remove any semblance of challenge and consequences, to the point where we have things like J. Sawyer making New Vegas mods because he wasn't allowed to fully execute on his vision.
If by "diverse" you mean "dominated by glorified looter shooters," sure.
This is accurate, but if you lived through the 00s as a CRPG fan it was pretty dire.
Alexander DeLarge
Member
That's the thing, it doesn't need to be one or the other. There's a balance to be struck in world design and gameplay mechanics. Especially after Skyrim now that they have mainstream audiences hooked (but then again I said that after Oblivion and Fallout 3 too). Just design a world that can be navigated without completely relying on a compass, to the point where people stare at the top of the screen while vaguely navigating around objects. Sure, there's the option to disable the compass but the game is fundamentally designed around it so the game is basically unplayable. When people talk about why they love Bethesda games, it's always about exploration and immersion. Why deprive people of the type of game design that would enhance that?
Morrowind vs Skyrim said:"Nuleno Tedas gave me directions to Urshilaku camp. The camp is due north from Maar Gan, but high ridges lie in the way. Follow Foyada Bani-Dad, a deep ravine just north of Maar Gan, northwest to the sea. A shipwreck at the seamouth of the ravine is a landmark. Swim east around the headland. Pass east through the ruins of Assurnabitashpi Shrine. Urshilaku Camp lies east of the ruins, inland in a low hollow."
vs
"stare at your compass and point towards the quest marker then hold W for 10 minutes (assuming you hadn't stumbled onto it earlier allowing you to fast travel)"
It'd be one thing if these series were introduced as light on the RPG mechanics but both of these series are deeply rooted in hardcore role playing mechanics and it sucks to be deprived of them, especially when Bethesda is the only company doing these kinds of open worlds and the only company that has this kind of extensive modding support. It's frustrating that the industry was shocked that the mainstream audience could handle something like Breath of the Wild when Bethesda should've and could've proven that with every release.
Also just for the sake of argument, wouldn't your friend enjoy Obsidian's quest design philosophy over Bethesda's as seen in FNV vs Fallout 4? In the context of TES, would it really ruin the game for "casual audiences" to have spellcrafting?
If we cant agree that Zelda gave Jim a lot of exposure then I think I'm done here.
At least you're upfront about it, ups for that.
There was always a divide on pc between the more mechanical oriented players who say prefered games more like Path of Radiance and the more story oriented
ones who liked story driven rpgs like Betrayal at Krondor. Those divides were always there. Until Baldurs Gate 1 released and put all those different elements together in a coherent way.
Though the divide still exists. You only needet to visit the codex where they argue fiercely, on what's more important for an rpg.
ones who liked story driven rpgs like Betrayal at Krondor. Those divides were always there. Until Baldurs Gate 1 released and put all those different elements together in a coherent way.
Though the divide still exists. You only needet to visit the codex where they argue fiercely, on what's more important for an rpg.
JustSomeone
Member
Good post. Inb4 people say something like "Well, you can just ingnore the quest compass!".
Nikodemos
Member
Betrayal at Krondor actually serves as the best example of a relatively compromise-free open-world-sandbox heavily-story-driven RPG.
And people say it's impossible to make one. LUL.
Acquiescence
Member
This was funnier when Videogamer did it a couple of years ago.
Jesus. Ok man, nothing ever happened with zelda and jim and his review was just another one of the lot. Im done.
well, thanks for letting me know 'you're done' without giving any other excuse other than you felt his Zelda review was for exposure only
i was worried you wouldn't let me know otherwise
It's an undisputed fact that mainstream rpgs have been pared back to nigh unrecognizable states from what they used to be though.
Compare the systems in system shock 2 to bioshock to bioshock infinite
Or fallout 2 to fallout 3 to fallout 4
Or morrowind to oblivion to skyrim
Or balders gate to kotor to mass effect to mass effect 2 (and so on)
There's objectively less systemic depth involved in those games and series as time has passed. I mean it's fine and dandy to talk about what that means, but let's not put our hands over our eyes and pretend the change didn't happen for fear of being made fun of in a Jim Sterling video because it objectively happend.
TheRedSnifit
Member
I see you're already "done", but if you're going to pretend you believe this nonsense then good riddance.
Hell just look at his popularity here on GAF. His threads have had far fewer responses since the Zelda nonsense. This particular video has two threads, and the most popular by far is the one that doesn't mention him by name.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
Ironically, they're noobs
Coming up next:
White bread is not bread.
If you think that they aren't RPG's, you need to find a better term than one that litterally has RPG in it.
Never mind that ARPG also includes stuff like Nier and The Witcher.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Eh, there are a ton of RPGs around right now, more than ever before, and many of them are fantastic games. I'm not sure why you are saying the genre is dominated by 'looter shooters'. I mean, maybe the mainstream consciousness is dominated by games like Destiny and The Division, but for every loot shooter that makes it big there are a ton of good, classic style RPGs from a wide variety of developers. They might be smaller games with smaller budgets and smaller teams, and their audience is undoubtedly smaller, but guess what...RPGs are a niche. Always have been, and likely always will be. The niche has grown a lot over the years though.
I think this type of anti-QOL complaint is as valid as fast-travel complaints for Witcher. I don't agree with having this one mechanic define "explorable immersion", people find the TES games immersive for different reasons. I myself logged more hours in Daggerfall than Morrowind and Skyrim combined, and I see the appeal of TES is your character carving out a place in a living world and having enough sandbox robustness to accomodate your actions.
Myself I could lament not having manual reagent mixing in later Ultima series or hair-pulling breadcrumbs in Might and Might series, but these aspects are honestly not core to those games. You can try asking the MMX fans to play MM2 blind now, I believe they will conclude QOL does not always diminish the fun of the series.
Someone who gatekeeps what "is or isn't" something and decries everything that doesn't fit their exact mold as trash, garbage, for noobs, etc
Also someone that, either directly or indirectly, likes to shame people for liking said somethings.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
I hope Jim sees it
Lord of Ostia
Member
People don't dislike Fallout 4 for the introduction of quality of life additions, they dislike it because it has poor writing and design, especially for an RPG but even for an open world shooter. The shooting mechanics are OK, but not good enough to carry the game, the loot system is simplistic and becomes boring after a few hours, the quest design is typically awful, along with a large majority of the writing. Combine that with the extremely limiting and ultimately pointless dialogue system that was dumbed down, not to make the game more accessible, but to add voice acting that really does nothing for the experience, and you start to understand why RPG fans hate the game. Don't represent the complaints about Fallout 4 as complaints against QoL and accessibility changes; most are complaints about bad design.
Genre definitions are mostly fluid and trying to pin down specifics is always going to end in frustration and probably ridicule for the person attempting it.
Mostly I think it's more about balancing player and developer expectations and goals (respectively) vs rigidly adhering to genre tropes that won't necessarily make a good game.
Like fallout 4 was sold to people as an RPG, when in fact you start breaking down it's systems and comparing them across to different games, even contemporary AAA stuff, it's kind of a shit rpg. Taken as a first person shooter with a heavy emphasis on adventure with a discovery sandbox it's pretty fun! People were more upset with the marketing leading them to believe they were getting a game that didn't exist and thus their expectations going in absolutely weren't met. Are they justified in being upset at that? Idk, I guess it depends on the player in the end.
Nikodemos
Member
There's a difference between streamlining features and removing them altogether for the sake of 'simplicity'.
themagicalkitsune
Member
Making fun of these geezers is low-hanging fruit. They're dime a dozen in every gaming forum and comment section, like they were ten and twenty years ago. I wonder if it's the same people and after 20 years they still have so little going on in their lives that they try and feel superior by playing a game. Or maybe they're new little twerps who adopt this attitude by mimicking their elders? Who knows.
Still Jim is entertaining. And also terrifying.
Still Jim is entertaining. And also terrifying.
Well it is perfectly fine if you feel FO4 is simply a badly-designed game regardless of accessibility. That is not my issue here.
I think this is a ridiculous statement considering the absolute plethora of RPG's of all kinds we've been getting from old school CRPG's to JRPG's like Nier Automata to stuff like Darkest Dungeon or the Dishonored games. I mean the amount of RPG's out there is huge from the traditional stuff to the more experimental and not so easily defined.
Nikodemos
Member
The problem is that 'accessibility' is used at a non-insignificant rate as a convenient excuse for design corner-cutting.
Which in turn makes some players blame accessibility instead of correctly criticising decision-makers for their bullshit.
Something tells me he has: https://twitter.com/LanceHeart/status/910851766312415232
He retweeted this.