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[Brazil]

But is it worth removing him? Do enough people care? If he had a big part in it, fully voiced, it could be a big job to remove him. I doubt most people care what he thinks as long as the game is good

And also the guy probably still has fans, so his voice probably still brings people in

If, as a developer, you're measuring the pros and cons of having a bona fide white supremacist associated with the product you poured your life into for years, you're already too far gone for me to care.

 

[Brandon F]

So how hard would it have been for them to say

"We do not agree with JonTron's views and they do not express the views held by the development team, but we are unable to remove him, as we are a small studio and do not have the resources to hire additional voice actors to replace him at this late point in development"

Like, that doesn't seem very hard, does it?

So why hasn't it happened yet?

Yep. Even then I wouldn’t support this game, but I’d at least think highly of the dev enough to consider their future work.

Inaction is cowardice and that is the only truth we can take away here. Assumptions are all that remains, not a good place for a fledgling studio to firmly weather.

 

[Machina]

It's almost like recent political events have made compromise untenable.

There is obviously no compromise on racism, I would've thought that is straightforward, and it would be okay if it actually stopped with that.

 

[CannonFodder52]

I feel like if the developers made a statement along the lines of "we do not wish to endorse JonTron's views, we were not aware of JonTron's views when we recorded his lines, but as a small studio is difficult for us to replace the dialogue", most people here would be satisfied. I think most people can understand that they're in a position they didn't plan to be in.

Mind you, that's if they made that statement. If they don't say anything, that silence is the statement.

Yea, that would be something for sure.

 

[CharminUltra]

I'll do both, thanks

Exactly.

 

[Parham]

That's unfortunate. I've been following the game since the early UDK days. Guess I'll be passing on the game.

 

[TripleBee]

I was unlikely going to be getting this game in the first place - but his inclusion would have given me pause in buying it.

 

[Mik317]

"Thankfully I don't let a voice actor's awful opinions sway my purchasing opinions"

That is what he said. he said he is willing to put up with the actors opinions by supporting his product regardless of his "political" views.

That is a lot different that him saying "I don't care about the plight of minorities because I am white" like you seem to have implied. All he is saying, that this isn't that big of a deal to him, enough to not buy a game he is interested in. More power to those who it is.

How do we know this? They've never made a statement, that I know if, saying otherwise.

Because I don't assume the worse of everybody? I'm sorry if that is weird but there is this strange notion that if you don't prostrate yourself for the cause then you must be against us....and that sucks. Have yall ever wondered why this place has the bad rep it has gotten lately? Some of yall are too aggressive at times (for very just causes mind you). Like Jon is a fuckwad for all the bullshit he spewed, but I am not a fan of punishing everyone in the radius of him for his nonsense, because if that was the "just" thing to do, then there is a lot of media I'd have to stop consuming. There are some fucked people out there yes....but you don't punish the efforts of others to spite them. Jon does not get punished for your boycott....it won't change his views...it will only strengthen others resolve against your cause because you are a "SJW" or whatever new buzzword they came up with.... and then we are at this again next time.

how bout we wait and see before condemning the whole company? Let them know you want a response but perhaps not as out the gate antagonizingly?

 

[Carl]

If, as a developer, you're measuring the pros and cons of having a bona fide white supremacist associated with the product you poured your life into for years, you're already too far gone for me to care.

Well I'm sure the game will still - deservedly - do fine despite having one horrendous person associated with it

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

Your power to fight white supremacy and institutional racism lies in the voting booth GAF, not in boycotting an indie game that would be lucky to sell 100k copies in the first place.

Do not undervalue the power of taking a definitive stand against white supremacy in any and all forms. No matter how much you try to downplay it, Hat in Time is in the public eye, and taking a position against racist shit piles like Jon Tron has an effect. Handwaving, or normalizing it even a little is what lets this cancer grow in the first place. Showing resistance at every stop translates to motivating more people to show resistance in their voting habits.

 

[wrowa]

I meant individual developers. I can take a stance on something without letting the whole world know what I like and don't like.

Including someone who’s undeniably racist in your game is a statement in and on itself, though, and I can’t blame people for being skeptical due to it.

 

[Mesoian]

I meant individual developers. I can take a stance on something without letting the whole world know what I like and don't like.

Sure....they haven't though.

 

[CopperPuppy]

Well yes, it can go hand in hand, but i meant like, supporting STEAM evened out because they also had Anti GG onboard.

Wait, what?

Do Roman Polanski's movies "even out" because non-pedophiles and non-rapists work on them?

 

[Mushroomer25]

There's really never a bad time and place to fight white supremacy.

There's a matter of scale that should be considered. Who is really harmed when you decide to advocate for a boycott due to a cameo like this? The person in the cameo, or the creators of the game? Whose worst crime seems to be silence over JonTron's statement?

It's so many steps removed from the issue at hand, that the point kind of seems lost.

I get it of you don't feel comfortable buying the game. But heralding that move as 'fighting white supremacy' just rubs me the wrong way. You're not punching a fascist, you're badmouthing an indie dev.

 

[wrowa]

If, as a developer, you're measuring the pros and cons of having a bona fide white supremacist associated with the product you poured your life into for years, you're already too far gone for me to care.

That’s easy to say when your livelihood doesn’t depend on a game’s success, is it?

 

[Machina]

Do not undervalue the power of taking a definitive stand against white supremacy in any and all forms. No matter how much you try to downplay it, Hat in Time is in the public eye, and taking a position against racist shit piles like Jon Tron has an effect. Handwaving, or normalizing it even a little is what let's this cancer grow in the first place. Showing resistance at every stop translates to motivating more people to show resistance in their voting habits.

I would've thought staying home and sleeping on the job while Trump steals an election is a lot more damaging to the cause than that but whatever makes you comfortable.

 

[LordKasual]

This conversation would be a lot easier to have if you didn't keep completely misrepresenting the words of those replying to you.

Gears for Breakfast will be fine, this isn't an organized boycott and at most they've lost a handful of sales from people who have enough games to play without buying one more based on a fairly easy moral stand to take. Failure to reward is not punishment and it's certainly not 'shitting on' a developer who makes video games.

Oh get real. You can't flip through the reactions in this thread and say that with a straight face. Hell, the fact that the threads like this can even exist in the first place is only unfavorable to them.

Again, this is just an example of how easy it is to say shit when you're safe from any of the consequences in question. Nobody in this thread is advocating spreading neo-nazi propaganda, even indirectly.

But the truth here is that Gears for Breakfast being a victim here is completely irrelevant to your own personal agendas. "Oh, they'll be fine" and "well lol it's only a handful" is just how you justify it in your own head.


but whatever, to each their own. It's still petty as fuck though.

 

[Suzzopher]

What's a Jontron?

 

[LoganNotABoganYouKnowIt!!]

Honestly, can we please just agree that it's not the the Devs' fault for any of this?

Personally, I can distance Jon the entertainer from Jon the politician. I understand that may be hard for some people, but that's just my opinion. Gears For Breakfast put Jon into the game, without knowing about his political views. To most people outside then Youtube drama community, Jon is just a harmless entertainer. If a child, or impressionable person went onto his channel, there is clearly know racist or harmful statements. Jon has kept his channel clean, and has tried his best to distance his political beliefs from his show.

Gears for Breakfast were faced with a decision: to either remove him, and face the backlash from those who wanted Jon in the game, or to keep him in, and face backlash from those annoyed by his presence. As someone who doesn't care either way, I believe that the logical decision was made. It was already known that Jon was in AHiT, and people were promised his inclusion. It isn't known whether Jon was being paid or not, but from his previous records, he hasn't charged for cameos such as this. Even if he was paid, voice actors are never paid on a royalty basis, and would have already been paid. This means that for those worried about their money going to Jon, there would be no direct cash flow from such sales. On top of this, since Jon has distanced his channel from his political views, those who find Jon through the game will not be harmed by finding his channel. Because of this, it was a rather logical decision to keep him in the game, as they could have faced a large backlash from removing him, and no-one would be harmed from keeping him in.

A divided fanbase is a very hard thing to deal with, and both sides are extremely vocal. I think we can all agree that GFB had a hard choice to make, no matter what you think was the right decision. There are fair arguments on both sides, but I think we should keep civil, and not blame the devs for being put into such a hard choice.

I think the best route for the devs to take is to promote the game as something that supports racism, reach a wide racist audience, then remove jon, say they've learned their lesson, and make bank.

Meanwhile children everywhere will remain incapable of looking at someone they find entertaining's twitter and being influenced by it.

 

[Brazil]

Do not undervalue the power of taking a definitive stand against white supremacy in any and all forms. No matter how much you try to downplay it, Hat in Time is in the public eye, and taking a position against racist shit piles like Jon Tron has an effect. Handwaving, or normalizing it even a little is what let's this cancer grow in the first place. Showing resistance at every stop translates to motivating more people to show resistance in their voting habits.

The fact that so many people in this thread alone are throwing fits overt people are boycotting a game because of a white supremacist hack's association with it is proof enough that taking a stance against white supremacy here is a valid political move.

That's easy to say when your livelihood doesn't depend on a game's success, is it?

You know what's even easier? Removing a fucking white supremacist's "so small it doesn't even matter" part from your fucking game.

 

[Mael]

I would've thought staying home and sleeping on the job while Trump steals an election is a lot more damaging to the cause than that but whatever makes you comfortable.

What makes you think he wasn't active then?
And even if he was, what makes you think that forbids him from ever taking action to begin with?

 

[OnPoint]

Honestly, can we please just agree that it's not the the Devs' fault for any of this?

Personally, I can distance Jon the entertainer from Jon the politician. I understand that may be hard for some people, but that's just my opinion. Gears For Breakfast put Jon into the game, without knowing about his political views. To most people outside then Youtube drama community, Jon is just a harmless entertainer. If a child, or impressionable person went onto his channel, there is clearly know racist or harmful statements. Jon has kept his channel clean, and has tried his best to distance his political beliefs from his show.

Gears for Breakfast were faced with a decision: to either remove him, and face the backlash from those who wanted Jon in the game, or to keep him in, and face backlash from those annoyed by his presence. As someone who doesn't care either way, I believe that the logical decision was made. It was already known that Jon was in AHiT, and people were promised his inclusion. It isn't known whether Jon was being paid or not, but from his previous records, he hasn't charged for cameos such as this. Even if he was paid, voice actors are never paid on a royalty basis, and would have already been paid. This means that for those worried about their money going to Jon, there would be no direct cash flow from such sales. On top of this, since Jon has distanced his channel from his political views, those who find Jon through the game will not be harmed by finding his channel. Because of this, it was a rather logical decision to keep him in the game, as they could have faced a large backlash from removing him, and no-one would be harmed from keeping him in.

A divided fanbase is a very hard thing to deal with, and both sides are extremely vocal. I think we can all agree that GFB had a hard choice to make, no matter what you think was the right decision. There are fair arguments on both sides, but I think we should keep civil, and not blame the devs for being put into such a hard choice.

Putting aside all the odd personal points in your post, I can agree that it's not the dev's fault Jon is racist. However, if someone decides to not buy the game due to his continued inclusion following his surprising reveal, that is their fault. It's a pretty simple if-then formula. Just the same as it's their "fault" if someone buys it because he's in it. It's just... whose support of the two groups do you want? And that's largely up to them.

I know how hard it is to change features and go through lot check the first time, let alone again after passing. Especially for something small-scope like this -- it's probably best saved for another, more comprehensive update, if they so choose to remove him. It would take time and resources they may not have.

With that in mind, I think the fair thing for now would be for the devs to release a statement explaining why they are or aren't leaving him in. That would at least clear the air.

 

[Mesoian]

Honestly, can we please just agree that it's not the the Devs' fault for any of this?

Until they come out with a statement, we really can't.

 

[L Thammy]

What's a Jontron?

This is JonTron.

EDIT:

This is also JonTron.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

except this is like boycotting a completely different artist because XXXTentacion wrote a verse in a song months before he beat his girlfriend.

Sure, go shit on XXX all you want. But this other random artist is supposed to scrap part of the whole track beacuse he was involved?

ya I would not listen to anything XXX wrote, what's your point?

 

[Chille]

What's a Jontron?

Thank god I am not the only one

 

[Psxphile]

https://twitter.com/HatInTime

They have a twitter account. Let them know your concerns.

 

[Machina]

What makes you think he wasn't active then?
And even if he was, what makes you think that forbids him from ever taking action to begin with?

The majority of GAF are young people, and the indifference of young people delivered Trump to the white house, and their indifference was directed at? Yes, the voting booth.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Because I don't assume the worse of everybody? I'm sorry if that is weird but there is this strange notion that if you don't prostrate yourself for the cause then you must be against us....and that sucks.

Why would I give people who associate with Nazis, and do not rebuke Nazis, the benefit of the doubt that they do not agree with the Nazi? What has the development studio done to give them the benefit of the doubt, besides just existing?

Have yall ever wondered why this place has the bad rep it has gotten lately? Some of yall are too aggressive at times (for very just causes mind you). Like Jon is a fuckwad for all the bullshit he spewed, but I am not a fan of punishing everyone in the radius of him for his nonsense, because if that was the "just" thing to do, then there is a lot of media I'd have to stop consuming. There are some fucked people out there yes....but you don't punish the efforts of others to spite them. Jon does not get punished for your boycott....it won't change his views...it will only strengthen others resolve against your cause because you are a "SJW" or whatever new buzzword they came up with.... and then we are at this again next time.

how bout we wait and see before condemning the whole company? Let them know you want a response but perhaps not as out the gate antagonizingly?

Wait and see? It's been half a year since JonTron made those remarks. How long do they need to put out a press release?

 

[Znedd1]

This is a parody, right? 'John the politician'? 'Separate his offscreen and onscreen personas'? This reads like every bad parody of apologist posts on GAF.

I thought I was being level-headed, thank you.

No-one had any problem with Jon before the controversy. People have enjoyed his content for years, without even questioning his political opinion. Of course, that is my own opinion, and as I said, I can understand why people feel differently.

Nonetheless, that wasn't even the point of my post. The only rebuttal you could make is a blanket "Are you serious", which is a very lazy comeback. You didn't give reasons why I'm wrong, and you simply dismissed my lengthy, yet layered argument.

Please, I was only wanting to add my two cents. If you think I am wrong, at least give some reasoning to it.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Oh get real. You can't flip through the reactions in this thread and say that with a straight face. Hell, the fact that the threads like this can even exist in the first place is only unfavorable to them.

Again, this is just an example of how easy it is to say shit when you're safe from any of the consequences in question. Nobody in this thread is advocating spreading neo-nazi propaganda, even indirectly.

But the truth here is that Gears for Breakfast being a victim here is completely irrelevant to your own personal agendas. "Oh, they'll be fine" and "well lol it's only a handful" is just how you justify it in your own head.


but whatever, to each their own. It's still petty as fuck though.

You aren't taking an honest measure of the reactions people are having here. There is just as much a voice for "I don't care, buying it anyway" as there is for "I don't want to buy the game because of the association."

But sure, try to shift the discussion to me and my personal agendas, whatever that is in your mind.

And I love the attempt to say that nobody has a stake in this besides the people making the game, as if nobody here faces the background radiation of white supremacy in the US and abroad every single day of their lives.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

Lol. It's demonstrating how ridiculously childish people can be when seeking their own personal retribution. These people gain nothing good from this incident and have everything to lose from the controversy surrounding it.

They take action, they have to replace work they already paid for, and they draw the ire of neo-nazis. They don't take action, they draw the ire of people like you, and have to deal with being branded. Which leads more people like you to generate hateful comments towards them.

JonTron runs damage control on himself and keeps on doing his thing, but now in his wake we have people who dislike him shitting on a completely different group of people that only briefly associated with him.


These people were just trying to make a fun game, and now we have assholes literally telling them that they can go get fucked because of something they had no control over.

This is actually worse than petty, i just can't think of the correct word for it right now.

So people who don't like eugenics racist bigots are the assholes? Do you think before you type?

 

[Yearsoflurking]

That’s easy to say when your livelihood doesn’t depend on a game’s success, is it?

If i had to choose supporting white supremacy or potential loss of income ,I'll choose loss of income. I dont support "political" garbage based on money

 

[Dylan Sexbang]

If, as a developer, you're measuring the pros and cons of having a bona fide white supremacist associated with the product you poured your life into for years, you're already too far gone for me to care.

Dude is Iranian with Iranian immigrant parent(s)- he isn’t a white supremacist, he’s a fucking spoiled ass manchild raised in Palos Verdes. I can definitely see where the ignorance stems from, but expect more from the son of immigrants. Out of touch and ignorant to the world? Yes. White supremacist? Nah.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Lol. It's demonstrating how ridiculously childish people can be when seeking their own personal retribution. These people gain nothing good from this incident and have everything to lose from the controversy surrounding it.

They take action, they have to replace work they already paid for, and they draw the ire of neo-nazis. They don't take action, they draw the ire of people like you, and have to deal with being branded. Which leads more people like you to generate hateful comments towards them.

JonTron runs damage control on himself and keeps on doing his thing, but now in his wake we have people who dislike him shitting on a completely different group of people that only briefly associated with him.

These people were just trying to make a fun game, and now we have assholes literally telling them that they can go get fucked because of something they had no control over.

This is actually worse than petty, i just can't think of the correct word for it right now.

Good to know that it's better to cater to neo-nazis

 

[Yearsoflurking]

Dude is Iranian with Iranian immigrant parent(s)- he isn’t a white supremacist, he’s a fucking spoiled ass manchild raised in Palos Verdes. I can definitely see where the ignorance stems from, but expect more from the son of immigrants. Out of touch and ignorant to the world? Yes. White supremacist? Nah.

You don't have to be white to support white supremacy, I'm sure he identifies himself as white as well.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Dude is Iranian with Iranian immigrant parent(s)- he isn’t a white supremacist, he’s a fucking spoiled ass manchild raised in Palos Verdes. I can definitely see where the ignorance stems from, but expect more from the son of immigrants. Out of touch and ignorant to the world? Yes. White supremacist? Nah.

There is no way to take anything Jon Tron said as anything other than white supremacy. The dude believes minorities are deluding the white gene pool. That's like the very definition of white supremacy

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Good to know that it's better to cater to neo-nazis

I can't believe that post lol I just have no idea how to respond. these threads are always hilarious

Dude is Iranian with Iranian immigrant parent(s)- he isn’t a white supremacist, he’s a fucking spoiled ass manchild raised in Palos Verdes. I can definitely see where the ignorance stems from, but expect more from the son of immigrants. Out of touch and ignorant to the world? Yes. White supremacist? Nah.

you can be non white and a white supremacist.

 

[brinstar]

There's a matter of scale that should be considered. Who is really harmed when you decide to advocate for a boycott due to a cameo like this? The person in the cameo, or the creators of the game? Whose worst crime seems to be silence over JonTron's statement?

It's so many steps removed from the issue at hand, that the point kind of seems lost.

I get it of you don't feel comfortable buying the game. But heralding that move as 'fighting white supremacy' just rubs me the wrong way. You're not punching a fascist, you're badmouthing an indie dev.

Who's even saying it's fighting white supremacy though? People pass on games all the time, for any reason. People pass on games when they find out they don't run at the framerate they desire. Or have screen tearing. Or don't have a Japanese subtitle track.

Games is a cutthroat business and there's a million games vying for folks' attention. It is incredibly easy to not buy a video game. If a developer team wants to minimize the chance of that happening, one of the easiest things they can do is not ship a game with an open famous racist in it.

Oh get real. You can't flip through the reactions in this thread and say that with a straight face. Hell, the fact that the threads like this can even exist in the first place is only unfavorable to them.

Again, this is just an example of how easy it is to say shit when you're safe from any of the consequences in question. Nobody in this thread is advocating spreading neo-nazi propaganda, even indirectly.

But the truth here is that Gears for Breakfast being a victim here is completely irrelevant to your own personal agendas. "Oh, they'll be fine" and "well lol it's only a handful" is just how you justify it in your own head.


but whatever, to each their own. It's still petty as fuck though.

did you help make this game or something? why does it bother you so much that some people aren't going to buy it

 

[Mik317]

ya I would not listen to anything XXX wrote, what's your point?

Then there is a shitton of rappers you probably should stop listening to.

 

[Brazil]

Dude is Iranian with Iranian immigrant parent(s)- he isn't a white supremacist, he's a fucking spoiled ass manchild raised in Palos Verdes. I can definitely see where the ignorance stems from, but expect more from the son of immigrants. Out of touch and ignorant to the world? Yes. White supremacist? Nah.

He's a self-loathing white supremacist.

 

[rochellepaws]

I'm sorry but this simply isn't something that is "ok" for the developers to keep quiet about when they've cast an outspoken racist in their game. Casting him to begin with was an honest mistake but persisting with him beyond his comments and through the direct precedent set from Yooka-Laylee to remove his voice work from the game showcases support and tolerance for his radical views which is very troubling indeed.

I hope we'll hear a statement from them in the coming days that they're taking the necessary and responsible action to remove him because I'd dearly love to support what looks like a fine effort in reviving the classic 3D platformer. But at the moment the idea that a game tailored towards children would willingly showcase and support a radical racist is nauseating.

 

[Suzzopher]

This is JonTron.

Sounds like my life was better having no idea what a JonTrron is.

 

[CannonFodder52]

A few people here were mentioning some bad stuff involving the dev in the past.

Is there any more to that?

 

[JoeInky]

Playtonic took a lot of heat over removing Jontron yet Gears for Breakfast just gets away with it.

Regardless, I wasn't interested in Hat in Time due to personal reasons. Long story short I knew MechatheSlag on an old gaming forum and he had quite the bad reputation.

I don't really remember him having that much of a bad rep on MFGG? Unless it started happening sometime after I talked to him, he seemed ok when we were in regular contact back when he was trying to do like 40 different projects at once.

He did randomly message me on steam about 4 or so years ago after years of no contact and asked me to look at his early design document for a Hat in Time, but I can't remember why he was asking me to look at it. Seems he's removed me on steam since then though.

He always seemed nice to me whenever I was making games and he was involved, but I wasn't a major person on MFGG so I didn't talk to many people outside of there.



I'm surprised that he's the only one from that site that's gone on to make a relatively high profile game, there were a lot of talented people on there.

 

[Captain Europe]

Your power to fight white supremacy and institutional racism lies in the voting booth GAF, not in boycotting an indie game that would be lucky to sell 100k copies in the first place.

Posts like these read as if people actually believe starting devs are entitled to charity.

The people who made this game made a corporate decision to start a development team,
they will stand or fall by their talent, as well as corporate and marketing decisions, such as this one.

If this game fails because of JonTron's voice being in the game that is 100% on the devs, whether they support his views or not.

It's business, not a charity about sick puppies.

 

[Wallach]

Dude is Iranian with Iranian immigrant parent(s)- he isn’t a white supremacist, he’s a fucking spoiled ass manchild raised in Palos Verdes. I can definitely see where the ignorance stems from, but expect more from the son of immigrants. Out of touch and ignorant to the world? Yes. White supremacist? Nah.

He absolutely is. He was straight up talking about the purity of the caucasian gene pool at one point. How or why this dogshit ever entered his brain I don’t know, but there is no mistaking it.

 

[Mesoian]

Then there is a shitton of rappers you probably should stop listening to.

I mean, you are correct.

As a hip hop fan, it's real tough out there, especially with the shift rap music has taken.

 

[Diprosalic]

Not a good look if they still have associations with him and i don't believe or a second that they couldn't drop him from the time of when this shit got out to now.

 

[purseowner]

A few people here were mentioning some bad stuff involving the dev in the past.

Is there any more to that?

Would also like to know this.