You have a point, and if we were left with the original theatrical cut I would agree, but Ridley Scott has worked on the movie over the years to push truth to the Deckard = Replicant theory.
Isnt the Final Cut the canon version of the movie now?
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Blade Runner 2049 |OT| Do Androids Dream of Electric Boogaloo? [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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You have a point, and if we were left with the original theatrical cut I would agree, but Ridley Scott has worked on the movie over the years to push truth to the Deckard = Replicant theory.
Isnt the Final Cut the canon version of the movie now?
You can think of him as a human or a replicant, I prefer the human version, it made more sense and made the first one powerful in theme, Ridley Scott has sometimes stupid ideas he wants to force on people, even if those are complete garbage, see Prometheus/Covenant movies as example.
Theodoricos
Member
I think one of the best things about 2049 is that it works as a follow-up to all versions of the OG BR, therefore it works equally well regardless if you think Deckard is a Replicant or human.
He's human though. 
hendersonhank
Member
It seems like most replicants are part of a rebellion. K is not obedient. Luv lies to Wallace about killing Madam in self-defense, implying he would not have wanted her to kill her.
Megalosaro
Banned
What are replicants? Clones? Robots?
artifical humans, that are used in the Blade Runner universe to outsource the worst slave labory from humans away.
They're just people who are manufactured instead of being born. I liked it better when I thought they were robots if I'm being honest.
That makes sense in the long term. But the cost of waiting 14-15 years for fertility, managing, storing, and caring for them in the interim, vs. several months for a full grown person seems to be a losing proposition for several generations.
That 'truth' was bolted on later by one person involved in the movie, yes. The writers were not involved in that decision. Even Harrison Ford doesn't agree with Scott. So take that as you will.
People are under the assumption that this movie 'confirms' that Deckard was a replicant, but that's not the case at all. Wallace was musing about the possibility of Deckard being created for Rachel, not saying that was a fact. He ends by saying to Deckard "Yes? No?", implying he doesn't know for sure. He was probably just fucking with Deckard anyway. It's still an open question.
Ether_Snake
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If Rachel was the only N7 she would have stood out from that alone, she didn't.
Them wishing they were the kid doesn't mean it was as a result of having this memory, there's no indication they have this memory actually. Otherwise it would mean everyone somehow found out that memory was the kid's, which is really stupid, I mean, how? Doing their own little investigation like K did? The horse stayed where it was all along. Memory-making-girl seemed really surprised/touched when she saw K had that memory, it is doubtful she puts it in everyone, and there is no indication she has done that.
They wished they were the kid when they found out one had been born, could have been any of them, then found out it wasn't them.
Them wishing they were the kid doesn't mean it was as a result of having this memory, there's no indication they have this memory actually. Otherwise it would mean everyone somehow found out that memory was the kid's, which is really stupid, I mean, how? Doing their own little investigation like K did? The horse stayed where it was all along. Memory-making-girl seemed really surprised/touched when she saw K had that memory, it is doubtful she puts it in everyone, and there is no indication she has done that.
They wished they were the kid when they found out one had been born, could have been any of them, then found out it wasn't them.
tonysidaway
Member
I think one of the best things about 2049 is that it works as a follow-up to all versions of the OG BR, therefore it works equally well regardless if you think Deckard is a Replicant or human.
He's human though.
I recently strongly defended the idea of Human Rick, but I'm happiest with this "Schrödinger" Rick. It won't fully satisfy those who think he must be one or the other, but it's a powerful story either way.
Declining to make a firm decision either way also helps to clarify in my mind that the distinction is largely cultural. This is in line with Lieutenant Joshi's fear of a breakdown in the social order if humans and androids perceive that there is no real distinction between master and slave. We see that kind of thinking in human societies even now where the union of all humans is not in any doubt.
Luv's worship of Wallace borders on fanatical I think. Her initial tears when he monologues about his inability to manufacture enough replicants and the imperfection of them being barren was a reflection of how she felt not being able to help and of her own imperfections being an infertile replicant. When she cries killing Joshi it may be from an internal struggle of knowing that Wallace wouldn't have wanted her to do it colliding with her own desire to get him the child. The sequence of her kissing K, gutting him, and leaving him for dead (unsuccessfully) was her trying to copy Wallace doing it to the imperfect replicant that he kissed, slashed, and left for dead. It's why I think she makes a point to tell K that she's the best.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Perspective good sir.
1.) Wallace has apparently created scores of replicants. I believe he said "millions", and while that may have been hyperbole we can assume that he's created a lot of replicants, and given the government hasn't shut him down, we can assume they're all sufficiently obedient. The demonstration replicant in the short film introducing Wallace makes it clear just how obedient they are.
2.) You could literally count the rebellion members on your hands. Looked like about 20 of them in the room, fam. There's no reason to assume "the rebellion" constitutes any more replicants/humans than we see in that room.
3.) K was obedient and almost machine-like until the idea that he may be special changed how he saw himself and the world around him.
4.) Luv was clearly designed to be unique and Wallace says so more than once.
So yea, the movie focused on the 0.1%. Don't miss the forest for the trees, as they say.
But natural reproduction requires no enhanced or special technology once it is an option. It requires no special facilities. No special equipment or materials. No expensive transport to get them from the creation facility to X off-world colony to work. It will happen on its own and next to no cost. While there is a time cost to waiting for said replicant to grow up to a working age, once you reach a certain volume of total replicant slaves it doesn't matter much. The young, strong new workers added to the workforce will outnumber the old, injured, and feeble.
see: actual North and South American slavery. Fertility of slaves was a critical aspect of their worth calculation. The costs incurred vs purchasing new, grown slaves were considerably lower and the process considerably simpler.
The events of the film didn't change the world that it happened in, nor was it supposed to. The rebellion as it's been pointed out isn't much if anything more than two dozen replicants among millions, nothing happened to prevent Wallace from continuing to mass produce replicants, the Earth is still effectively dead and irrelevant at this point with Humanity moving off world.
Yea it fits perfectly with the theme in the movie that it doesn't matter whether you are a replicant or a human, because at this point they are the same.
I went back and watched Bladerunner, and the opening scroll tells you that replicants are nearly identical to humans in everything including intelligence. The movies are basically a scifi twist on racism.
pel1300
Member
Seeing the replicants fight each other reminded me of the fight scenes between Cap and Bucky in The Winter Soldier. Every hit has so much impact. In the original you could convince me that the replicants were just ordinary people, but in 2049 you can just feel how much power is behind every hit they throw.
I wanna see K take on MCU Cap.
I wanna see K take on MCU Cap.
s_mirage
Member
Perhaps she wasn't the only Nexus 7. Perhaps the N7s were a limited run but not unique except for Rachael's special ability.
What is known is that Rachael's serial number starts N7 and, while the code in Sapper's eye starts NX-8, if you pay close attention to the data shown on K's computer it shows other Nexus 8 Replicants with serials beginning N8. This is not a coincidence.
Ether_Snake
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I'm just saying it's extremely unlikely that Rachel is the only N7. What stands out in her is her ability to reproduce, which was either purposely built into her or not, other than that she is supposed to be unremarkable. LAPD would know as much as they can about the past Replicant models, if N7 never existed other than Rachel they would have made a point of it, but they didn't because N7 on its own is not remarkable. There is also the possibility that Deckard is the one who has "something special", if he's a replicant.
Anyway all this reminds me of why I think this movie doesn't live up to the first. All these "plot points" to wonder and figure out, all unnecessary. This shouldn't be Star Wars.
To add on to this, if Wallace was able to perfect creating Replicants that can give birth, he would most likely be able to tweak the DNA in such a way so that they can grow up faster. He wouldn't want to have Replicant babies and kids around any longer than is absolutely required.
UnemployedVillain
Member
The concept requires some suspension of disbelief. Robot makes sense given this capabilities, but then requiring the voight kampff test to distinguish them doesn't
s_mirage
Member
I'd agree. When K checks out the serial number, the desk clerk doesn't bat an eyelid other than to say something like "that's an old one". I figure that they couldn't have been that common though. Perhaps they were just a short lived, low volume, refinement on the 6s, without the four year lifespan (assumed but she would have been barely older than four when she died), that were quickly replaced by the mass produced 8s.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Very memorable in the role.
Everything about his farm was comfy and wholesome. Great set, and the way they shot it when you see him walk into the kitchen and K's silhouette is against the curtain hnnnngh.
I've always been grossed out by the idea of eating bugs for nutrition/protein, but if that ends up being a common part of western diets in a few decades I think I would be ok with it.
Fuck roaches tho. Not touching them.
Mikado
Member
Which brings us to the real question: did K try some of that delicious garlic stew?
I'm reminded of another shot: there's that moment in the orphanage where we see K. just spinning an ashtray, wonder what the meaning of that is supposed to be. Outside of it showing a horse head on one side => toy horse
It looked like he was cooking garlic at his house but I'm not entirely sure.
SixMachine
Member
Natural reproduction will eventually outgrow the factory reproduction. The larger your population, the larger growth it will have, while the artificial way will be limited by your factories. Cost wise you will just need to send enough replicants to breed a stable population on a far off colony instead of trying to ship them from one facility, especially since interstellar travel will take a long time (only went to 9 new worlds since the first Blade Runner movie). Trying to map out the stars will take generations, no matter how relatively "fast" they are going, so it's better to go at it with something long term in mind. Short term plans means you will be dealing with a batch of workers that probably can work the normal life span of a human (or however long replicants can live now) before replacing, while natural breeding they will replace themselves.
Makes sense, Batty also didnt looked that intimidating, but he was super strong.
But yeah, I was confused for a single moment, too
tonysidaway
Member
The original Blade Runner spawned many a discussion. Why is it always pouring with rain in Los Angeles? If manufactured snakes have identifying tattoos down to the level of individual scales, why is it such a chore to identify a replicant? What cataclysm made nearly all the amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals so rare? How do the flying cars fly? How does space colonisation work? This is pretty normal for any SF film, because of the amount of world building involved.
Closer to clones than robots. We know they have DNA and have no mechanical parts. There is no digital code in their brains, for example. Yet they are manufactured. Joi on the other hand is basically a robot. Or at least the kind of AI that would exist in a sentient robot/android.
What makes Replicants 'more human than human' is the fact that their DNA is based on ours and is tweaked in such a way as to increase any desired feature. Except for emotions. And that ties into their memories. If nothing was added to their memory before 'birth' then they'd be an adult with a baby brain (or maybe just brain dead). So memories have to be implanted. Basic stuff like knowing how to walk, for example, is essential.
The Nexus 6 versions had all of those essential memories baked in (along with anything else that a client needed, such as combat experience or sex). Turns out these Nexus 6 Replicants rebelled relatively easily because once they realized they were not 'real' people their emotions had nothing to fall back on. It's why Batty seemed to turn into a crazed lunatic at the end of the first movie. The Nexus 8 series were given strong emotional memories to solve this problem. What's really interesting is the fact that these new Replicants know that their memories are false, yet they still obey.
The nature of Replicants is fascinating and the addition of digital AI in the form of Joi is just another facet of the big question Blade Runner is all about.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I loved the Joi stuff, and how she was basically a slave to a slave. And when he gets the doohickey, he's basically giving her an increase in freedom.
Movie has a lot going on.
Movie has a lot going on.
nillapuddin
Member
there was a small badge or insignia when he turned it, I couldn't make it out
police badge?
tonysidaway
Member
I believe it's been identified as an LAPD logo of some sort. My headcanon is that Gaff isn't as uninvolved as he seems.
Fancyarcher
Member
The theater I saw it in, was much smaller, so I'm guessing the sound-mix wasn't the greatest, so yeah that's a good point.
Ether_Snake
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For whatever reason I keep calling it the LAPD ashtray? I thought it had an LAPD logo on it, but I guess not.
Those discussions had nothing to do with clarifying plot holes or parts that just felt like they didn't make sense. The movie's plot was very straightforward, there was nothing left to wonder beyond is Deckard a Replicant, is Gaff going to hunt them down, basically things that would be meaningful past the end of the movie.
In this one, it's full of problems relating to the plot itself and people going through all sorts of hoops to try and justify them.
That's wrong, Nexus 6 don't have fake memories, and didn't rebel as a result of finding out they were not real. Tyrell says there is a problem with them, which is that they are developing weird obsessions, so he THEN adds fake memories as a cushion, Rachel being one such example. Roy and co. didn't have that. Leon's attachment to his photos was an example of what Tyrell spoke of.
nillapuddin
Member
the way the cigarettes were laid out seemed similar to the other time we saw cigarettes in an ash tray, but I cant recall who was smoking them
could be misremembering
tonysidaway
Member
You know, it's got to be him. I'm convinced.
BuckRobotron
Member
Makes sense, Batty also didnt looked that intimidating, but he was super strong.
But yeah, I was confused for a single moment, too
Gosling isn't exactly a 98 pound weakling and after the fight at the beginning of the movie showed what he could take as a replicant this didn't surprise me at all. And I think with Batty, Hauer effected precise steely movements most of the time that suggested robotic power before it was demonstrated.
Anyway, regarding the comments about theater sound levels, it was indeed borderline too loud at my local as well, both viewings.
Fair enough, they didn't rebel specifically because they were not real.
Also, I differentiate between memories in general and emotional memories. Learning how to walk for example is based on experience, which is essentially memory. How else could the Nexus 6 models function at all without implanted information of some sort?
Ether_Snake
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No idea, but they know already they are "not real people". Tyrell is worried about their development of obsessions, which imply those sentiments they develop lures them away from following their expected functions. Giving them fake memories, which is apparently something very new from the way he speaks about it, is hoped to cushion this. Could be memories they know are fake, or they aren't told; either way the memories are built in so that they don't end up developing unexpected attachments, they will attach themselves to something they are expected to. Just an attempt at creating some new layers of control.
Obviously, making them imagine they are humans didn't work out in Rachel's case.
It also had a horse on it around the edge on one side.
Just finished watching it a second time, still love it, probably moreso. This time I went with 3 friends that never saw the original nor knew anything about this one (one even said afterwards "I thought this was a remake" after another asked how many movies were in the series), and while I sat there during it thinking they were hating it they all said they really enjoyed it and 2 said they want to go and watch the first now (one was particularly interested in it). Think I've convinced them to go and watch it when either the same cinema we went to or a different one will have a few screenings of it around next month or December as they do each year. This is the first time I've been to see a movie more than once in the cinema, I felt this irrepressible need to see it again after the first time, never felt like that before honestly.
Picked up on a huge amount more this time naturally. I really underestimated Gosling's performance. I thought he was really good initially anyway but I didn't realise how acute his acting was in so many scenes. Can't wait for home release.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Seawall is fabulous.
Yeah, I agree. I said as much in my other post. You seem to be hung up on the term 'memories' though. The every day definition is indeed something you can replay in your mind of a past experience, but memory in general is much deeper than that. Your subconscious relies on deep seeded memory of all sorts of stuff that you aren't aware of. I keep going back to the walking example. Once you learn how to walk there's no need to remember anymore. You just do it. But it still requires memory to some degree. Those kind of memories can't necessarily be 'replayed'. And that's what I was referring to. Just a different type of memory.
If you think about it, there shouldn't be a huge difference between having baked in combat abilities and having a baked in memory that can be played back. Tyrell just didn't think he needed to go the extra mile to implant those kinds of memories at first.
nillapuddin
Member
One thing that was subtle that I was really glad I picked up on, was I really felt I could hear K's breathing throughout most of the movie, I dont usually pick that up, but I felt it was mixed in there a bit more than normal, and it gave an extra layer of context to some scenes.
ex: when he was totally in control vs when he actually had fear and other emotions
idk if it was just me, but my wife said she noticed it also
ex: when he was totally in control vs when he actually had fear and other emotions
idk if it was just me, but my wife said she noticed it also
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