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Why are unions frowned upon?
- Thread starter TaterTots
- Start date
Mister Wolf
Member
Local 11 Southern California. Work is good out here right now.
Megalosaro
Banned
Globalization isn't a bad thing. And it's not going to go away anytime soon. Knock off this xenophobic bullshit.
Pagusas
Elden Member
I can understand the appeal of unions, but I hope Im never part of one. Im in a unique job and role that requires unique skills. Being part of a union would mean Id be bargaining collectively instead of on my own. Ive rocketed my career by handling my own negotiations, benifits and pay. A union would have gotten in the way and prevented me from pushing my salary up.
CornBurrito
Member
I don't disagree with the chart. Hispanic industries are typically on average lower skilled or service industries. It doesn't surprise me at all that non unionized low skill industries are worse off. Those sectors are far better served with union representation but America is a mess, the minimum wage should be at least double what it is.
The first chart however, does correlate with globalization, something that is extremely difficult to compete with when you can't control others policies / cost of living factors.
Collective bargaining increases the ability for workers to express influence over the policies of their employer. The benefits of which include everyone at the company and not just those at the top that can jump ship whenever they want because they're marketable. I don't see how this isn't worth pursuing or doesn't make sense because the absolute top earners might get more on their own. This doesn't describe most people working at the vast majority of companies after all.
We both know that this isn't how this plays out, union member or not.
Okay, yes, we've established that union membership has seen a decline. Thanks again for clarifying.
What exactly was xenophobic about my post?
It also gives an employer little motivation to pay above and beyond the average because a business cannot control it's own allocation of funds, the union effectively does it for them. An employer won't give someone a 15% raise if they think the union is going to turn around and demand a 10% increase for all next year.
As I said, if you're in a skilled workforce, unions have little value. It doesn't matter if you're a mid-level nobody, collectively bargaining de-values everyone as a whole in that situation, the only people that benefit are the ones that are dragging the chains.
moffattron9000
Member
Because this hatred of Globalisation ignores the very real gains that have been made in Asia and Africa (seriously, look what's happened in places like Botswana, it's incredible). For context, the percentage of people living in absolute poverty is at its lowest in recorded history. Meanwhile, the global middle class (which basically everyone in the West is above) now makes up 3.5 billion people.
This sounds like a hypothetical that plays out so often that it's just a forgone conclusion. Just like employers being unable to fire their employees.
I think even you recognize that mid-level "nobodies" have next to no bargaining power, especially given your pinpoint focus on top earners.
But I think this is where I'm just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't have much time to discuss right now and I feel like we've about hit the end of what this conversation can offer. Thanks for the discussion.
Again, not sure how my post suggested a hatred of globalization or was xenophobic in any way.
I agree with you by the way.
Bill R Boggess
Member
I can't speak to Canada but what you've written here as it applies to unions in the U.S. is straight up nonsense.
That's a load if I ever heard one.
Companies want cheap disposable employees they dont have to think about
PLUS
Unions are imperfect.
Basically Unions are a net positive, but Conservatives and businesses completely hate them as they tend to on AVERAGE make things better for employees which costs the employers money. However needing ammunition for something that's clearly a benefit for the common man, lobbying groups will absolutely focus in on the shitty unions that do a poor job and have fucked up expectations (they do exist, nothing is flawless, not even unions) in order to paint all of them as being a net negative.
Unfortunately in the US this is the sort of thing Republicans managed to finagle into a political "side" issue. So many everyday workers living paycheck to paycheck that could benefit greatly from a well run union will scream bloody murder about how unions are the devil solely because its what their political party tells them to say.
PLUS
Unions are imperfect.
Basically Unions are a net positive, but Conservatives and businesses completely hate them as they tend to on AVERAGE make things better for employees which costs the employers money. However needing ammunition for something that's clearly a benefit for the common man, lobbying groups will absolutely focus in on the shitty unions that do a poor job and have fucked up expectations (they do exist, nothing is flawless, not even unions) in order to paint all of them as being a net negative.
Unfortunately in the US this is the sort of thing Republicans managed to finagle into a political "side" issue. So many everyday workers living paycheck to paycheck that could benefit greatly from a well run union will scream bloody murder about how unions are the devil solely because its what their political party tells them to say.
moffattron9000
Member
What this chart misses is the fact that the majority of union jobs at the peak were found in mostly Midwestern manufacturing jobs. As the rest of the world rebuilt itself after WWII, and Asia began to enter the global marketplace, the truly unique place that created the obscene growth and wealth for middle America ended.
In layman's terms, of couse US wages are going to be high when only the US can make stuff. When everyone can make stuff however, things have to change.
What do you considered skilled? RNs in states with strong Unions have significantly higher pay and lower nurse/patient ratios in certain types of units. A first year RN in LA can make have a base salary of $43hr next year while in Denver it would be $26/hr. There is a difference in cost of living but it's no where near that big. An ER and ICU RN has peoples' lives in their hands all day, every day but in non-union states they are treated poorly.
Unions were fighting the good fight back in the day when people were getting sucked into machines and had to work insane hours. Now that OSHA and the department of Labor regulates a lot of workplace laws there's less of a need for unions. They focus more of protecting peoples' jobs and wages sometimes to the detriment of new employees or businesses trying to stave off bankruptcy and competition.
When they went on strike at the stroke of midnight and callously kicked everyone off the buses, to find their own way home in the middle of the night. That's exactly what soured me on unions.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Individual bargaining? lol
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Because humans are too easily corruptible and can't always be trusted to act in good faith.
This is both the reason why we need unions and why unions can turn into disasters for many of their members.
This is both the reason why we need unions and why unions can turn into disasters for many of their members.
Public services are the exclusion to the rule. When you have politics dictating price, you absolutely need unions.
Good luck unionizing things like law, science, IT etc. Unions are only truly effective when there is a narrow supply of employers or high availability of capable employees. Unions are what levels the playing field in the absence of competition creating a market.
Lawyers are effectively organized in a trade union. Those types of skill-based groups due hold up in the modern economy because they weren't reliant on physical availability for leverage.
Stuff like gig work in Hollywood also fits in nicely to our current employment structure.
Aarglefarg
Member
I'd like to join a union but the major one for my industry is absolutely awful, like campaigning against marriage equality, abortion rights, in vitro fertilisation and stem cell research, against the wishes of its members.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/why-...rs-stopping-gay-marriage-20150430-1mwl32.html
There is a minor union that popped up because the major one is awful, but I don't know that they have enough power to do anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retail_and_Fast_Food_Workers_Union
http://www.smh.com.au/national/why-...rs-stopping-gay-marriage-20150430-1mwl32.html
There is a minor union that popped up because the major one is awful, but I don't know that they have enough power to do anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retail_and_Fast_Food_Workers_Union
ken_matthews
Member
While I agree in theory, that resources are ultimately scarce, and that Globalization will eventually have a seesaw effect on many of the first world economies, however so far I do not think it has had any real affect on the US manufacturing industry. In fact, we manufacture more now than any time after World War II (here is a good article about US manufacturing output).
I do not think it was the rise of Asia, so much as it was the rise of automation and the shift to a service based economy, which makes up almost 80% of our GDP, and 80% of private sector employment (https://www.trade.gov/publications/ita-newsletter/1010/services-sector-how-best-to-measure-it.asp).
I am very much pro-union, but I think they started to fall out of favor because they grew with the manufacturing boon in the first half of the 20th century, but then started to loose its base as the economy shifted to new sectors that traditionally never had unions. Additionally, a lot of the hard fought labor battles the birthed many unions in the past are now over, so it is now more difficult to galvanize people to organize. Plus, conservatives have been waging a campaign against unions for decades and that has influenced the way people few them. They prop up the worst case examples in teachers, construction, government, and other industry unions as typical examples of how they protect bad workers and cost companies unnecessary money.
Angelus Errare
Banned
"black people are getting paid more than me, a hard working white man!"
"Liberals want to pay black people with no education more than you!"
etc
KarneeKarnay
Member
In London I hate Unite. The Local Union for train and underground services. Mainly because the choose the worst possible moments to kick up a fuss about an issue.
That said, I would rather deal with all the crap and have them, than not have them at all.
If anything I think we need more Unions in the UK. They get a bad rep because they cause a lot of problems for people with money. However if recent decades have proven anything, there is a need for them now more than ever.
That said, I would rather deal with all the crap and have them, than not have them at all.
If anything I think we need more Unions in the UK. They get a bad rep because they cause a lot of problems for people with money. However if recent decades have proven anything, there is a need for them now more than ever.
MeatGrinder
Member
Union has the power to make a company go bankrupt, force you to strike against your own will, and are market imperfections. But they secure worker rights and nice pay (if they know how to bargain).
sda frequently publish material smearing them so they've definitely been doing something right. join up
King Tubby
Member
Conservatives have done a good job filling people's heads with the idea that wealthy "job creators" are the only ones looking out for their interests, and poor leeches need to be stomped out.
I work in a country where unions are a norm. They are mostly a good thing but there are negatives. For example let's say a company has a really bad worker. He does everything at 50% efficiency compared to others. Something like this not only harms the company directly but can also decrease morale among other workers. But, the company can't fire him just based on that. If they do, unions will fuck you up.
So what usually happens in a case like this, how companies get rid of "bad workers"? Either mass layoffs (meaning the company can't hire a replacement for the next year or so) or the bad worker gets paid a big salary to quit (so sort of gets rewarded for sucking).
The above is a big reason why temp agencies are the king here atm. Almost all companies hire work force through them now (the worker can be fired with a day's notice).
So what usually happens in a case like this, how companies get rid of "bad workers"? Either mass layoffs (meaning the company can't hire a replacement for the next year or so) or the bad worker gets paid a big salary to quit (so sort of gets rewarded for sucking).
The above is a big reason why temp agencies are the king here atm. Almost all companies hire work force through them now (the worker can be fired with a day's notice).
sephiroth7x
Member
Might be different here in the UK but I wouldn't say they are frowned upon.
In this country they fight unfair working conditions and other items similarly. For example, my company has been in a pay dispute at the moment about a pay rise and they didn't have to do that... the Union saw them and said 'Right, what are we doing?' and agreed a decision based on the votes of its members.
The Union at my company managed to bring in half days on Fridays, overtime rates over 38 hours in the week, time and a half if you ever have to work a Saturday and double time for Sundays etc. These things don't apply to me (Shitty management flexitime bullplop!) but still, these additions were fantastic and without the Union wouldn't have existed.
In this country they fight unfair working conditions and other items similarly. For example, my company has been in a pay dispute at the moment about a pay rise and they didn't have to do that... the Union saw them and said 'Right, what are we doing?' and agreed a decision based on the votes of its members.
The Union at my company managed to bring in half days on Fridays, overtime rates over 38 hours in the week, time and a half if you ever have to work a Saturday and double time for Sundays etc. These things don't apply to me (Shitty management flexitime bullplop!) but still, these additions were fantastic and without the Union wouldn't have existed.
I don't blame this on either a company or a political party.
Unions have vastly outgrown their original mission. Unions used to be for safe, fair job conditions and pay. Now they are just obstructionist in nature if they don't get everything they want. They don't want to work with the company for you, they want the company to work for them so they become far more valuable in the employee's eyes.
Unions have vastly outgrown their original mission. Unions used to be for safe, fair job conditions and pay. Now they are just obstructionist in nature if they don't get everything they want. They don't want to work with the company for you, they want the company to work for them so they become far more valuable in the employee's eyes.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Your boss won't give you a raise if they think they can get away with not doing it. They give you a rise to stop you from leaving.
Your employer is not your friend, you are a disposable asset to them.
Spuck-uk
Banned
UNITE etc are the reason Train and bus drivers in London actually get paid a decent living wage, instead of getting fucked over like almost everyone in working class jobs.
TheRedSnifit
Member
For most people, their interaction with unions consists of:
1) Seeing and/or hearing about bad workers (or generally bad people) getting protected, and
2) Public unions protecting murderers and generally acting against the interests of taxpayers.
I worked at a UPS hub for a while that was a hotbed of racism because it was basically impossible to fire anyone. One guy got fired for sexual harassment and was back three days later.
edit: I should clarify that the union was net positive imo, and working at a non-union UPS probably would have been a nightmare. But they bring a bunch of bad with the good.
1) Seeing and/or hearing about bad workers (or generally bad people) getting protected, and
2) Public unions protecting murderers and generally acting against the interests of taxpayers.
I worked at a UPS hub for a while that was a hotbed of racism because it was basically impossible to fire anyone. One guy got fired for sexual harassment and was back three days later.
edit: I should clarify that the union was net positive imo, and working at a non-union UPS probably would have been a nightmare. But they bring a bunch of bad with the good.
Martinski43
Member
I think most people here in Sweden that isnt self employed are in some Union. Even people who arent socialist or left in Sweden think it's a great thing to be part of a union so you arent SoL suddenly.
HarryHengst
Member
Obstructionist, lol. How do you think they got fair working conditions and pay? By talking and asking nicely? They got it by literally fighting with police and strikebreakers and other scum hired by capitalists. Nothing was ever gained by asking nicely, only by blood and broken bones.
His Majesty
Banned
I hope you realize that approach is unacceptable nowadays The last few strikes we had union representatives bullying shops into closing and first aid responders getting stuck in traffic because of an unannounced blockade, which resulted in the death of a patient.
Depends on the perspective. Certain people constantly complain why Rail workers and Post office workers are unnecessarily striking and disrupting services. Its often misunderstood that they are just whining for the sake of whining.
Thankfully, there have been cases where people rightfully put the blame on the employers and empathise with the workers. Particularly the case with Southern Rail where they sent out a tweet telling their passengers to complain to the RMTUnion about disrupted services due to strikes. The public responded so beautifully.
Simply marvelous.
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/782827298642857984?lang=en-gb&lang=en-gb
News source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37538391
llien
Member
An interesting read Margaret Thatcher vs Unions
Arguably, that was the only way for UK economy to recover.
Arguably, that was the only way for UK economy to recover.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Corporate propaganda.
It's that simple.
It's that simple.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Fuck Thatcher now and forever, she was a monster worse than Reagan.
Passed anti-gay legislation, used riot police against peaceful protests, introduced regressive taxes targeted against the poorest, sowed the seeds to try and privatise the NHS, presided over the Hunger Strikes, managed to get inflation to 15%, voted to block the legality of divorces, cut funding to kids school meals and libraries, and destroyed social housing.
We had a party when she died.