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[ScientificPizza]

i dont know why people are jumping on ND case, how can ND rspond approriately when there is no name attached to the accused individual?

What if someone from ND comes out and accuse her of sexual harrassment?

YEs things like this should be investigated but not to the point to ruin someone if they are innocent

In this one post you lamented the fact that people aren’t naming names while also explaining the reason why you shouldn’t name names

 

[Shaanyboi]

Innocent until proven guilty here was referring to your assertion that Naughty Dog does not deserve any benefit of the doubt, reasserted here in this post. You seem to want to condemn them until they respond, rather than allowing them a chance to correct things, and I'm not sure how else you'd describe that. It's a type of thinking that makes me deeply uncomfortable.

Earlier in the conversation, I stated that if she had gone to a PR person then Naughty Dog deserves everything they get, to be clear.

Boo fucking hoo? No one is saying to harass Druckmann and call him a rapist. But the reaction to someone coming out about sexual harassment shouldn't be "poor Naughty Dog."

 

[HardRojo]

The important thing is maintaining the membrane between ND and their employees to many here. Seems like people will do anything to not admit their favorite Devs have a toxic/ problematic culture.

To be honest I believe there are people taking both extreme sides, you for example, claiming they have a toxic and problematic culture based on the case of a limited number of people (which is a shame because ideally that number would be 0), and others going out of their way to put ND on a pedestal and claim they absolutely have no guilt in this and using whataboutism by saying this happens in all companies.

I simply want ND to come out with a better statement than whatever shit they crapped out about Ballard's case. The whole thing is simply not a good look for them and it's better for all of us (no matter what you think of the company) that they come out, condemn this and work to find who were the people responsible and act accordingly.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

If I was ND, i'd be reaching out to her privately for more information. No need to publicly name a name until an investigation can happen.

If they confirm it, then can the person responsible.

 

[TLZ]

And based on information that I've received over the years, my default position on potential abuse victims sharing their stories is simple.

Believe them.

But it's not simple. It's quite the opposite. As much as I'd love to blindly believe harrassed victims, there were/are many instances were people are falsely accused. Don't know what their motive is; money or clearing their image maybe? Mental issues? I honestly have no clue. I've been on the receiving end once of a false accusation. In fact she came on to me to my shock and demanded intercourse. Never have I once hinted at it. Next thing I find I'm a rapist! A week later her mother calls and apologizes deeply for her daughter's shameful behaviour. I've no idea what made her do that as I've never spoken to her again. So the point I'm making here is, no it's not "simple", at all. Believe me I wish it was.

Naughty Dog and these harassed people need to have a sit down and a chat.

 

[CaviarMeths]

If you got hired at a company, there's going to be sexual harassment policies in place to protect you. That's how you should handle the situation first, and then take it to public if those policies fail.

Yes, those of us who have not already put you on ignore have read your 30 posts detailing, with neat little Starbucks analogies, what she should have done years ago when this first happened. Also thank you for your lessons on workplace sexual harassment policies, because none of us have jobs and already know this shit.

Now how about engaging in a conversation that's actually relevant.

 

[Mael]

Dear god, I'm really thankful I don't read some of you people's posts on stuff like police shootings!
We would be discussing why the murdered person didn't make a formal complaint to the police station.

 

[fester]

The term "Victim Blaming" is being thrown around in this thread a lot, and it's not even being used properly.

"Corporate stans" struck a nerve, huh? You spend post after post policing how victims should be reporting harassment, then move on to policing how we should all be using the English language. Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[Chakan]

Yeah, this looks rough

Need proof, else its your word against whoever you claim that said this.

 

[ScientificPizza]

But it's not simple. It's quite the opposite. As much as I'd love to blindly believe harrassed victims, there were/are many instances were people are falsely accused. Don't know what their motive is; money or clearing their image maybe? Mental issues? I honestly have no clue. I've been on the receiving end once of a false accusation. In fact she came on to me to my shock and demanded intercourse. Never have I once hinted at it. Next thing I find I'm a rapist! A week later her mother calls and apologizes deeply for her daughter's shameful behaviour. I've no idea what made her do that as I've never spoken to her again. So the point I'm making here is, no it's not "simple", at all. Believe me I wish it was.

Naughty Dog and these harassed people need to have a sit down and a chat.

People make this argument all of the time as though false allegations are this hugely common thing. False accusations *do* happen, but the true allegations far, far outnumber them. And I’d wager that the harrassment that goes on that is never spoken about easily outnumbers them both

Believe victims. No one wants to be a victim, and coming forward as a victim (as already shown in this thread) often opens themselves up to more abuse. No one wants to be known as the person who was sexually harassed or raped, very few people are willing to stigmatise themselves with that kind of false allegation

Believe victims

Dear god, I'm really thankful I don't read some of you people's posts on stuff like police shootings!
We would be discussing why the murdered person didn't make a formal complaint to the police station.

You’re really not that far from the truth tbh. There were people defending the woman who lied about Emmett Till that resulted in him being lynched

 

[CaviarMeths]

As much as I'd love to blindly believe harrassed victims, there were/are many instances were people are falsely accused.

Statistics are not concrete, but we do know that false accusations are very rare. Single-digit percentages, in most studies in most regions. As low as 1.5%.

Here's a good article on rape, which isn't the same as sexual harassment, but shouldn't be too dissimilar in reporting trends: https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

Let's start with the idea that false rape accusations ruin lives, and are therefore a universal risk to men. Generally, feminists dismiss this idea by arguing that false accusations are rare—only between 2% and 10% of all reports are estimated to be false. What's equally important to know, however, is that false rape accusations almost never have serious consequences.

So don't worry. If you support someone who says they were abused, you are not ruining anybody's life.

 

[Keinning]

Need proof, else its your word against whoever you claim that said this.

What "proof" exactly are you 'requiring' from her? An audio recording of the exact phrase, maybe a video with a timestamp so she can prove it was during the exact time she claimed and not 25 minutes later? Do you think she walks around with a camera recording everything said to her 24/7 in anticipation for someone to be a shithead to her or something?

There's a reason harassment is often not punishment and people silence themselves instead of rising against it. It's nowhere as easy to "prove" by the affected party.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Your entire post is baffling but these parts irked me so much. It's not about you and what you think. It's about a woman who was terribly wronged, no one cares about what you think it's "best".

Seriously.

"Here's what ~I~ would have done, which is the Correct Way of responding to being a victim of sexual harassment" - no, how about you fuck off.

 

[Shaanyboi]

But it's not simple. It's quite the opposite. As much as I'd love to blindly believe harrassed victims, there were/are many instances were people are falsely accused. Don't know what their motive is; money or clearing their image maybe? Mental issues? I honestly have no clue. I've been on the receiving end once of a false accusation. In fact she came on to me to my shock and demanded intercourse. Never have I once hinted at it. Next thing I find I'm a rapist! A week later her mother calls and apologizes deeply for her daughter's shameful behaviour. I've no idea what made her do that as I've never spoken to her again. So the point I'm making here is, no it's not "simple", at all. Believe me I wish it was.

Naughty Dog and these harassed people need to have a sit down and a chat.

So all the people posting #metoo really shouldn't be taken seriously, because they are probably just making it up, or have mental issues?

Coooooool....

 

[WaterAstro]

Yes, those of us who have not already put you on ignore have read your 30 posts detailing, with neat little Starbucks analogies, what she should have done years ago when this first happened. Also thank you for your lessons on workplace sexual harassment policies, because none of us have jobs and already know this shit.

Now how about engaging in a conversation that's actually relevant.

lol I didn't even start the Starbucks analogy.

"Corporate stans" struck a nerve, huh? You spend post after post policing how victims should be reporting harassment, then move on to policing how we should all be using the English language. Are you fucking kidding me?

If I was victim blaming, I would be saying that she is at fault for being sexually harassed because the way she dressed, or something stupid like that. I don't know if you read that in my posts, but that's not the case.

I'm focused on the method she used to deal with her sexual harassment, and how she could have used a better option.

 

[innervision961]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

 

[Aselith]

When did I say "it's not their problem"? I said they will deal with the issue by letting the manager of the store handle the situation.

The Starbucks CEO isn't going to fly to the victim's home and personally apologize.

That's what telling you to deal with the store says...not my problem. Starbucks would not tell you you go with to the store, they would forward it to corporate and a corporate rep would contact the store to investigate further like responsible companies.

Not to mention that's not even what happening here so let's stop with the Starbucks strawman.

 

[CaviarMeths]

I'm focused on the method she used to deal with her sexual harassment, and how she could have used a better option.

There's a more succinct and concise way to word this. I should think that 2 words would be enough.

 

[gamz]

Yeah, this looks rough

Who says this in the workplace? Wow.

 

[ScientificPizza]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

Honestly

 

[lutheran]

False allegations happen, but most studies have found that it happens pretty infrequently. I believe this woman is telling the truth..I just read an article from a few years back which was pretty chilling...


https://www.centerforinquiry.net/bl..._of_false_accusations_a_skeptical_case_study/

Still I think most of these accusations are true, what makes you skeptical is that women don't always report it when it happens for numerous reasons. Why someone would say what this developer supposedly said to this woman is beyond me, did he think he was just being funny? That is not something you say to a stranger, not even someone you know well.

 

[ScientificPizza]

lol I didn't even start the Starbucks analogy.



If I was victim blaming, I would be saying that she is at fault for being sexually harassed because the way she dressed, or something stupid like that. I don't know if you read that in my posts, but that's not the case.

I'm focused on the method she used to deal with her sexual harassment, and how she could have used a better option.

i love to Log On and dictate how women should systematically handle their trauma

 

[PowderedToast]

The first action of sexual harassment in a professional setting is to handle it professionally by telling the management.



There's a huge difference between Weinstein's power to ruin the actresses' career and some unnamed individual at Naughty Dog.

It's also not up to her if that individual should be fired or not. It's up to Naughty Dog. The fact that Naughty Dog wasn't told about it makes their image look like their company is full of sexual harassers. They don't want that, and would prefer to resolve it without the social damage.

Now that she tweeted that out, the internet is going to take up arms and say that Naughty Dog is a terrible company that doesn't deal with sexual harassment.





If she has a problem with it, she has to resolve it. Individuals at Naughty Dog are definitely under strict scrutiny when it comes to sexual harassment. She has plenty of better options she could have taken than to just tweet about it on social media in light of the Weinstein case.

The method of resolving the Weinstein case and this Naughty Dog charge, or any professional company, is completely different. In my opinion, when there are procedures in place in a professional workplace, and a professional person does not take those channels to resolve the issue, their ability to be professional is diminished. She should have led, by example, on how to deal with sexual harassment with any company instead of simply tweeting it out and leaving it everyone else.

you're a misogynist

there, can we move on now

 

[WaterAstro]

That's what telling you to deal with the store says...not my problem. Starbucks would not tell you you go with to the store, they would forward it to corporate and a corporate rep would contact the store to investigate further like responsible companies.

Not to mention that's not even what happening here so let's stop with the Starbucks strawman.

No it doesn't. Like I said, the CEO isn't going to come to the victim's house to apologize, then personally fire the employee. The manager does all that. The manager investigates. The manager of the store where the victim was sexually harassed deals with all the matters.

And if we're going to engage social media in the same way, the victim probably didn't even say which store or city in which the incident occurred.

Yes, I'm tired of this Starbucks thing, but you guys keep replying to it like you know how these chain stores work.

you're a misogynist

there, can we move on now

Yes, I'm a misogynist for showing MEN and women on how they should use the policies already in place to protect themselves.

 

[hairygreenpeas]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That's really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

I don't really follow any devs on social media, but your comment definitely made me check out Druckmann's twitter just in case lol. It looks like he hasn't been retweeting Moriarty at all lately, or, at the very least, on the regular in the past couple of months. I would legit be disappointed if he continued doing so because Moriarty has shown his ass and holds some piece of shit 'opinions'.

edit:

False allegations happen, but most studies have found that it happens pretty infrequently. I believe this woman is telling the truth..I just read an article from a few years back which was pretty chilling...


https://www.centerforinquiry.net/bl..._of_false_accusations_a_skeptical_case_study/

Still I think most of these accusations are true, what makes you skeptical is that women don't always report it when it happens for numerous reasons. Why someone would say what this developer supposedly said to this woman is beyond me, did he think he was just being funny? That is not something you say to a stranger, not even someone you know well.

QFT!

 

[Shaanyboi]

lol I didn't even start the Starbucks analogy.



If I was victim blaming, I would be saying that she is at fault for being sexually harassed because the way she dressed, or something stupid like that. I don't know if you read that in my posts, but that's not the case.

I'm focused on the method she used to deal with her sexual harassment, and how she could have used a better option.

So the thing that upsets you the most, isn't that an employee sexually harassed her, but that she came forward about it in the wake of other allegations against the studio's culture of sexual harassment?

 

[Kinyou]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

So is Druckman a misogynist now?

 

[TrojanBlade]

I n a society where women are objectified day and night through every media, and the clubbing scene is a hunting ground for most of the men to score a night, I am not surprised this goes around in most of the work places. And let me tell you some women are not innocent either, as I have seen them flirting and putting them out their to get attention of the higher ups. I have seen this personally.

Anyways, before you guys start throwing me under the bus, if this really happened. this kind of behavior is unacceptable anywhere. All women should be respected period, no matter where they are.

 

[CaviarMeths]

Yes, I'm tired of this Starbucks thing, but you guys keep replying to it like you know how these chain stores work.

You shouldn't be because you're actually correct about how Starbucks is run. Everything else you've said is horribly misguided.

In fact I recommend that you start a thread in OT about how Starbucks works. It would be more successful than your contributions to this thread.

 

[WaterAstro]

So the thing that upsets you the most, isn't that an employee sexually harassed her, but that she came forward about it in the wake of other allegations against the studio's culture of sexual harassment?

No, it upsets me that people use social media to resolve issues that should be first resolved privately.
If she had attempted to resolve it privately first, then I will apologize. Otherwise, I maintain my position of handling sexual harassment through company policies first.

 

[Aselith]

No it doesn't. Like I said, the CEO isn't going to come to the victim's house to apologize, then personally fire the employee. The manager does all that. The manager investigates. The manager of the store where the victim was sexually harassed deals with all the matters.

And if we're going to engage social media in the same way, the victim probably didn't even say which store or city in which the incident occurred.

Yes, I'm tired of this Starbucks thing, but you guys keep replying to it like you know how these chain stores work

They are not going to leave it up to the individual store, someone at corporate will follow up. Man, I hope you are being intentionally obtuse right now.

Your entire argument is based around the CEO doing everything so he would have to handle any HR issues on a coporate level. Starbucks definitely doesn't have DMs and VPs, right?


And again, the situation is completely different than Naughty Dog having a single "store"

No, it upsets me that people use social media to resolve issues that should be first resolved privately.
If she had attempted to resolve it privately first, then I will apologize. Otherwise, I maintain my position of handling sexual harassment through company policies first.

She doesn't work there. How would.she know corporate policies?

 

[ScientificPizza]

No, it upsets me that people use social media to resolve issues that should be first resolved privately.
If she had attempted to resolve it privately first, then I will apologize. Otherwise, I maintain my position of handling sexual harassment through company policies first.

This isn’t resolving an issue at all

And if a company has a history of sexual harrassment then that is something that should absolutely be publicly exposed

Your entire stance is company first, people second

 

[Mael]

No, it upsets me that people use social media to resolve issues that should be first resolved privately.
If she had attempted to resolve it privately first, then I will apologize. Otherwise, I maintain my position of handling sexual harassment through company policies first.

Yes, the major problem here is that women try to talk publicly about this.
They should just shut up and make you a sandwich, right?

Spoiler

very obvious jk disclaimer

 

[CaviarMeths]

They are not going to leave it up to the individual store, someone at corporate will follow up. Man, I hope you are being intentionally obtuse right now.

Your entire argument is based around the CEO doing everything so he would have to handle any HR issues on a coporate level. Starbucks definitely doesn't have DMs and VPs, right?


And again, the situation is completely different than Naughty Dog having a single "store"

It's not relevant this this situation in any way, so this tangent is dumb. >_>

 

[WaterAstro]

They are not going to leave it up to the individual store, someone at corporate will follow up. Man, I hope you are being intentionally obtuse right now.

Your entire argument is based around the CEO doing everything so he would have to handle any HR issues on a coporate level. Starbucks definitely doesn't have DMs and VPs, right?

And again, the situation is completely different than Naughty Dog having a single "store"

She doesn't work there. How would.she know corporate policies?

I think your problem is that you think that every customer complaint, sexual harassment or not, is entitled to the best possible apology that the company can muster from the highest level. There are levels of management, and each level has their own responsibility.

Every corporate or company policy on sexual harassment is practically the same. Sexual harassment is not acceptable anywhere.

 

[Budi]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

Huh, he does that? Wow, dude starts to seem like real Tim Soret!

 

[Mik2121]

The whole shaming a company for the actions of one developer or two is kind of bad though. Specially when you shit on them without naming the person himself.

I have met a few NaughtyDog devs at GDC and every one of them has been really nice to me. People saying that this is the culture at ND are insane, specially when you assume the actions of a couple people to be the culture for a 300+ employee company.

Anyway, not trying to defend this person (assuming this is real, anyway). He deserves to be fired since he was being there as a representative of NaughtyDog.

 

[Aselith]

It's not relevant this this situation in any way, so this tangent is dumb. >_>

It is but he's also spreading lies about not being able to report sexual harassment to a corporation with franchisees, which is very wrong, so it was worth correcting.

I would not like to think that someone would read that and feel powerless if things are not handled properly at their store level.

I think your problem is that you think that every customer complaint, sexual harassment or not, is entitled to the best possible apology that the company can muster from the highest level. There are levels of management, and each level has their own responsibility.

Every corporate or company policy on sexual harassment is practically the same. Sexual harassment is not acceptable anywhere.

That is nowhere in the same vicinity as what I was saying

 

[Shaanyboi]

The whole shaming a company for the actions of one developer or two is kind of bad though. Specially when you shit on them without naming the person himself.

I have met a few NaughtyDog devs at GDC and every one of them has been really nice to me. People saying that this is the culture at ND are insane, specially when you assume the actions of a couple people to be the culture for a 300+ employee company.

Anyway, not trying to defend this person (assuming this is real, anyway). He deserves to be fired since he was being there as a representative of NaughtyDog.

"Nice people" are perfectly capable of being gross in different situations.

 

[Mael]

"Nice people" are perfectly capable of being gross in different situations.

I'll never get the whole "nice people" can't do shit stuff.
Like follow politics once in a while, it's full of nice people who WILL do shit stuff on the regular.
There's also gigantic pieces of shit there though.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

No, it upsets me that people use social media to resolve issues that should be first resolved privately.
If she had attempted to resolve it privately first, then I will apologize. Otherwise, I maintain my position of handling sexual harassment through company policies first.

Story after story after story after story over the past (what's it been now) three weeks of women coming forward, usually detailing how they tried to handle these situations through companies and were ignored and this is something someone says with a straight face.

 

[gogosox82]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

Is that true? That's super depressing to hear if true.

 

[WaterAstro]

It is but he's also spreading lies about not being able to report sexual harassment to a corporation with franchisees, which is very wrong, so it was worth correcting.

I would not like to think that someone would read that and feel powerless if things are not handled properly at their store level.

That is nowhere in the same vicinity as what I was saying

Ummm dude... you're missing the point. You report your sexual harassment to the store, which is Starbucks. Going to social media with it is fruitless. Each store handles your issue.

Anyway, enough with this Starbucks thing. If you got harassed by a video game company employee, you should talk to their managers. There. That's it. The end of the Starbucks analogy.

 

[Mik2121]

"Nice people" are perfectly capable of being gross in different situations.

For sure. You might also be incredibly gross outside NeoGAF but if I haven’t seen you doing so, I’ll just assume you’re a nice guy.
Again, I don’t think everyone at ND is incredibly nice. Out of 300 or so people, there are probably a few jerks. But saying that that’s the ND culture is also assuming too many things, don’t you think?

 

[fastmower]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

Is he really still doing that?

 

[Aselith]

Ummm dude... you're missing the point. You report your sexual harassment to the store, which is Starbucks. Going to social media with it is fruitless. Each store handles your issue.

Anyway, enough with this Starbucks thing. If you got harassed by a video game company employee, you should talk to their managers. There. That's it. The end of the Starbucks analogy.

No I'm not missing your point but you are wrong.

I do appreciate your attempt to roll a wrong conclusion into a victim blaming combo knock out but you're not slick.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I'll never get the whole "nice people" can't do shit stuff.
Like follow politics once in a while, it's full of nice people who WILL do shit stuff on the regular.
There's also gigantic pieces of shit there though.

A friend on my Facebook amid the #metoo posts came out about having been raped when she was out at PAX one weekend some years back by the person she was staying with.

I know exactly who it is she was talking about, I met them earlier that night. Their perceived "niceness" is completely fucking irrelevant.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Druckman still retweeting moriarty on the regular? That’s really all you need to know about the culture at the top there. I fell out of love with them pretty damn fast.

Hell no, an ND guy retweets Moriarty?

 

[Nekofrog]

Wait someone said going to social media is fruitless in cases of sexual harassment?

Have you been on fucking twitter this week?

 

[Budi]

"Nice people" are perfectly capable of being gross in different situations.

Yup, this is always good to remember. Especially with people holding a public persona. I was personally really surprised to hear about the Screen Junkies creator and the multiple harassment situations where he was involved. The channel is very inclusive and Signore himself even stepped in once when a woman was constantly interrupted in their movie fights show. But still he was a huge creep behind the scenes, harassing women not only online but physically too.

And we have progressives justifying physical punishment for children in the OT right now. So people can still be horrible even when they seem to be allright at first.