Support NeoGAF

[Forearms]

The point is that this is a standard reaction towards a man who asks for permission to kiss a woman. It's seen as being unromantic. Most first kisses don't involve the man asking for permission first - it's not a social norm. That goes for any initial sexual situation. It almost always involves the man progressively going further and further without explicitly asking for permission, with the expectation that any sign of hesitancy or discomfort and the man backs off.

The idea that every encounter involves a formal request for consent is just not realistic outside of this internet thought exercise. It almost never happens in real life.

The unfortunate reality is that NeoGaf at large has no understanding of the grey areas. If you didn't ask for consent, and you go in for a kiss, you're already guilty of sexual assault/rape/attempted murder.

 

[Clipjoint]

If EL had tried to kiss her, no one would have given a single solitary fuck. I mean, some people might have, but it would have been a huge minority. There's a big difference between that and getting into a shower naked with someone without having express consent. If you can't see the difference, I really don't know what to say at this point.

You could argue that kissing her is a physical act, whereas in this situation he didn't actually touch her. If you're using your legal definitions, kissing her would be sexual assault and exposing himself would just be indecent exposure.

Either way - he backed off when she made it clear she wasn't interested. That was where he chose not to cross the line into criminality.

 

[PhantomThief]

I wanna repost this here as well, sorry if its too many times but its how I feel.

Man, what a total shitshow this turned out. That Kotaku article is scathing though.

Malka should have been more up front with this community. Dont let shit like that Amirox business fester. Just come out and speak to it, be honest and say it really fucking sucks.

The same case applies to this woman and her allegations. If Malka did do this shit and wanted to hit that, then he shouldnt come back now and say "she's mentally instable" because that just makes you look like a dick.

Just say yeah I tried to hit it, I misread the signals so yeah I fucked up. But thats it!

Just too bad all the communitys are fractured now and lots of old cool members have already left.

 

[anothertech]

GAF loves witch-hunts and guilty until proven innocent threads.

It didn't help that you had hundreds of VOAT/Chan & jilted ex-gaffers taking advantage of the situation.

This!! Thisx1000

Don’t recognize half the banned users in the last 10 hours

 

[norinrad]

Way to go Klepek for getting the SCOOPS. Dude's a badass, doing actual investigative reporting on shit that matters.

Second, I love GAF, been coming here for almost a decade. Its been an amazing place to come read about games, insight into the industry, and other's thoughts/opinions. I can't remember how many times I've come here and learned some hot news a week before a major news site picks it up. Like any forum, the strength lies in the community. Time will tell if GAF has the strength to rise again, I suppose. Its a bummer to think of this place becoming a ghost town.

My thoughts on this debacle are.. COME THE F' ON! I'm glad Klepek wrote the piece and shined some more light on the story.

It went from #metoo, I was sexually assaulted by evilore and everyone get their pitchforks shined up, TO

They are travelling together, sharing hotel rooms, getting lit. She had a boyfriend!!! (But at the same time, admittedly polyamourous, in an open relationship....so yeah, the boyfriend aspect has about zero relevance) and there was obviously some kind of relationship between the two, likely coupled with a good amount of sexual tension. They both get drunk, she goes to shower and "maybe leaves the door open partway" which could be interpreted a few different ways, (not saying it was supposed to be an invitation, but they're drunk and staying in a hotel room together here, could be easily misinterpreted) and dude tries to make an ill-thought-out move (sure, it was a little over the top way to break the ice) and she says no. He leaves.

Then the bombshell - "oh we had sex a few months later as I continued to travel with him." Oh, ok. Must have been a really horrible experience there a few months back. (Whoever claimed this is like a domestic violence victim coming back to her abuser - get real. Domestic victims come back to their abusers because of the long standing circle of abuse - the abuser has all the power, has stripped the victim of their self-worth and independence - financially and by cutting them off from their friends/family. Kids are often involved. They come back because the whole abuse cycle is designed to break them down, leaving is hard as fuck financially, and there are legit fears of violence to self/kids if they try to walk away. This woman has her own life, career, circle of friends/family/boyfriend and could've walked away at any point and never talked to this guy again. Not even remotely similar situation.) This makes me believe this whole interaction was no big deal when it happened, maybe even laughed about the next morning, and over the passage of time and a soured relationship, it becomes something else entirely.

When the whole story comes out, this seems more like someone who wanted to join the #metoo movement and came up with a salacious, half-truth of a story to join the club.

Don't think for a minute that I am an apologist for sexual offenders, I work in the court system and when someone goes to the pen for a sexual assault it FEELS GOOD. Fuck people that truly sexually victimize others, and part of me hopes they themselves get victimized behind bars to know what it feels like.

This though...c'mon.

Bringing me to my last point, BRING BACK OFF-TOPIC FORUMS. Talk like this has no business in a forum dedicated to video games

Great post and thank you for this, although people are not going to read it as they've already made up their minds to hang Tyler.

A lot of people have been holding a grudge against him that dates back many years and are all coming out of the woodwork to hang him for all the wrong reasons instead of trying to gain an understanding of what really happened.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

The unfortunate reality is that NeoGaf at large has no understanding of the grey areas. If you didn't ask for consent, and you go in for a kiss, you're already guilty of sexual assault/rape/attempted murder.

I want to ask you what you don't understand when people tell you that it is literally against the law. Even a simple kiss without consent can be considered battery. Forget anything to do with what you think is socially acceptable, it's literally against the law. People have already tried to explain why it's against the law in the first place and you don't want to accept that, but surely you can understand that a law is being broken in these situations.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

Wait, so, according to the mod interviewed in this article, the evilore statement on amirox claiming that they didn't know his name was false? That's a pretty strange thing to lie about.

Not that strange from a PR perspective, they wanted to distance themselves. And give a probable reason for why a statement came so late?

 

[Pai Pai Master]

The unfortunate reality is that NeoGaf at large has no understanding of the grey areas. If you didn't ask for consent, and you go in for a kiss, you're already guilty of sexual assault/rape/attempted murder.

No one said that. There is a massive gulf between going for a kiss and getting into a shower with someone. It's not even worth talking about if someone goes in for a kiss and gets rebuffed.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

I want to ask you what you don't understand when people tell you that it is literally against the law. Even a simple kiss without consent can be considered battery. Forget anything to do with what you think is socially acceptable, it's literally against the law. People have already tried to explain why it's against the law in the first place and you don't want to accept that, but surely you can understand that a law is being broken in these situations.

In the real world people operate with their heart in their hands.

Not the clinical scalpel of the law assessing every social interaction before hand for fucking criminal liability.

We're not from planet fucking vulcan guy. And you know that and you're still at this shit.

Nudity seems to freak people out lol.

 

[blankempathy]

Posting ‘ban me' threads is not trying to ‘have a discussion. That is the point I was making, and you were adamantly trying to redirect over and over now.

And the mob mentality you are embracing is pure rubbish when it's based on 0 facts and ignorant trolling along with utter bollox you chaps keep spouting.

Come off it.

You directly accused me of arguing for a mob style witch hunt. Thats what I was addressing. How am I embracing the mob mentality? I am asking questions and presented a scenario while also not denying other's take on the situation. I'm not going on peoples twitters and harassing them. I'm not review bombing their games or products nor am I directly asking for a ban or attempting to commit account suicide. So again, how am I embracing the mob mentality? Facts exist. Specifically facts involving the aftermath of the accusation. But apparently those facts don't matter.

 

[anothertech]

I wanna repost this here as well, sorry if its too many times but its how I feel.

Man, what a total shitshow this turned out. That Kotaku article is scathing though.

Malka should have been more up front with this community. Dont let shit like that Amirox business fester. Just come out and speak to it, be honest and say it really fucking sucks.

The same case applies to this woman and her allegations. If Malka did do this shit and wanted to hit that, then he shouldnt come back now and say "she's mentally instable" because that just makes you look like a dick.

Just say yeah I tried to hit it, I misread the signals so yeah I fucked up. But thats it!

Just too bad all the communitys are fractured now and lots of old cool members have already left.

Read the article

He did ‘hit that’ ... some time after the shower thing actually.

That’s why some of us are arguing we don’t know shit, and everyone jumping to conclusions is a fucking troll.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

You could argue that kissing her is a physical act, whereas in this situation he didn't actually touch her. If you're using your legal definitions, kissing her would be sexual assault and exposing himself would just be indecent exposure.

Either way - he backed off when she made it clear she wasn't interested. That was where he chose not to cross the line into criminality.

Dude, his dick was out. That means it was a criminal act. You can't punch someone and then say "Oops, my bad" and it suddenly isn't assault. You can't whip your dick out and then say sorry and put it away and not have broken the law. Even then, you're still discounting the reasons as to why that law exists in the first place. There's a reason it's there.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

They are travelling together, sharing hotel rooms, getting lit. She had a boyfriend!!! (But at the same time, admittedly polyamourous, in an open relationship....so yeah, the boyfriend aspect has about zero relevance) and there was obviously some kind of relationship between the two, likely coupled with a good amount of sexual tension. They both get drunk, she goes to shower and "maybe leaves the door open partway" which could be interpreted a few different ways, (not saying it was supposed to be an invitation, but they're drunk and staying in a hotel room together here, could be easily misinterpreted) and dude tries to make an ill-thought-out move (sure, it was a little over the top way to break the ice) and she says no. He leaves.

 

[Real Hero]

what he did can't bother people that much if they decide to still post here

 

[Liha]

You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain

RIP

 

[Avalanche]

This is what I was about to ask about. I keep feeling like I've missed something because everyone else is so sure that he's a sexual predator, but unless I misread the article (I was tired, so it's entirely possible) it seems the course of events was:
-He tried to make a move when drunk, she said no, then he backed off probably embarrassed and annoyed
-They talked about it, and he agreed that he fucked up and it must have been forgiven because they remained friends
-Ended up actually having sex in the future
-She years later decides to tell the story, leaving out everything past the indecent exposure

Please correct me where I've gone wrong, because I'd like to know why it's so cut and dry for GAF.

This incident is abuse no matter which way you cut it. It was a sexual encounter without consent. Any relationship after the fact doesn't absolve him.

People need to understand that abusing women is about power more than it is about sex.

Combine this with the fact that:
- He aggressively attacked her after she came out, claiming she was mentally ill.
- He has shown no sign of remorse or sense of responsibility for this, or any incident in the past (the European butt grab, the Amirox incident).
- He has displayed an ongoing tendency to disrespect women when he speaks about them.

You really want your clicks filling this psychopath's pockets? Do you really need a criminal conviction before you stop supporting this asshole?

At a certain point you just have to admit you're making excuses to keep the GAF dream alive.

It sucks, but it's gone.

 

[RoyalFool]

Lmao victim blaming and mental illness card. It was almost impossible to look worse talking than staying silent but he did it.

What a piece of trash.

Banned for this? Really.

Came back to see if neogaf had any chance of surviving, clearly not

 

[Anarion07]

No one said that. There is a massive gulf between going for a kiss and getting into a shower with someone. It's not even worth talking about if someone goes in for a kiss and gets rebuffed.

I know where he's coming from, though. I've seen these kinds of arguments in threads.

 

[Sweep14]

You're right, we're not telepathic. That's why you ask first before you do something.

Yes that's how it works in a normal situation with everyone involved having clear judgment capacity (Yes I know alcohol is not an excuse, but it can explain the sequence of the events).

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Thread needs more gifs/imgs that reference whats happening

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

Great post and thank you for this, although people are not going to read it as they've already made up their minds to hang Tyler.

A lot of people have been holding a grudge against him that dates back many years and are all coming out of the woodwork to hang him for all the wrong reasons instead of trying to gain an understanding of what really happened.

That post is not great in any shape or form.

 

[anothertech]

You're blaming a website's user base for doing exactly what it has done in the past. Jumping to conclusions based on what someone said and nothing more. Why are people surprised things went down this way?

When making the point that we don’t know shit and should stop trolling, you replied with this.

Along with your posts in this thread, Sounds to me like you’re embracing mob mentality and ignorant trolling.

 

[Forearms]

No one said that. There is a massive gulf between going for a kiss and getting into a shower with someone. It's not even worth talking about if someone goes in for a kiss and gets rebuffed.

I was being hyperbolic on purpose, and referring to the discussion about kissing without consent.

In the real world people operate with their heart in their hands.

Not the clinical scalpel of the law assessing every social interaction before hand for fucking criminal liability.

We're not from planet fucking vulcan guy. And you know that and you're still at this shit.

Nudity seems to freak people out lol.

Thank you!

 

[Revolutionary]

Banned for this? Really.

Came back to see if neogaf had any chance of surviving, clearly not

If you used the Find User Posts function, you'd see that's clearly not the post he was banned for. Though it seems it WAS his intention lol

 

[Herr Schwarz]

His statement doesn't read very well at all. Needs a better PR department.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

In the real world people operate with their heart in their hands.

Not the clinical scalpel of the law assessing every social interaction before hand for fucking criminal liability.

We're not from planet fucking vulcan guy. And you know that and you're still at this shit.

Nudity seems to freak people out lol.

And again, I'm telling you, it doesn't matter. I ended up in jail for a day because I forgot to pay a parking ticket. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone, I made an honest mistake. I still had to do it. Intentions mean jack shit when it comes to the law and how my actions hurt other people. You do something wrong, you do what an actual man should do and face up to it.

Do you realize if EL had just said, "I'm sorry that this happened, we talked it out, were in a relationship later and I thought we were in a good place, but I guess I was wrong. What can I do to help make this better" nearly no one would be pissed right now?

 

[caffeware]

Hey, can I come in and fuck you?

 

[Vagabundo]

"Like me some company in there?" Not hard, is it?

 

[JawzPause]

One of my friends at uni was falsely accused of rape and it ruined his life, even i looked at him differently until it came out that the girl was bullshitting.

I'm not defending EL but i have always stood by innocence until proven guilty and it seems a lot of people have just ignored that

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Hey, can I come in and fuck you?

Hmmm...

"Like me some company in there?" Not hard, is it?

Yeah. Or, "Feeling lonely?" Honestly, if they were that good of friends it's not that crazy to say "Fancy a fuck?" goddamn.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

One of my friends at uni was falsely accused of rape and it ruined his life, even i looked at him differently until it came out that the girl was bullshitting.

I'm not defending EL but i have always stood by innocence until proven guilty and it seems a lot of people have just ignored that

Did your friend previously admit to sexually assaulting someone, and practically brag about it?

 

[Klocker]

One of my friends at uni was falsely accused of rape and it ruined his life, even i looked at him differently until it came out that the girl was bullshitting.

I'm not defending EL but i have always stood by innocence until proven guilty and it seems a lot of people have just ignored that

.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

One of my friends at uni was falsely accused of rape and it ruined his life, even i looked at him differently until it came out that the girl was bullshitting.

I'm not defending EL but i have always stood by innocence until proven guilty and it seems a lot of people have just ignored that

Dude, the mods all left because EL admitted to it.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

GAF loves witch-hunts and guilty until proven innocent threads.

It didn't help that you had hundreds of VOAT/Chan & jilted ex-gaffers taking advantage of the situation.

Yeah, I saw an awful lot of glee from ex-members on Twitter. I wonder how many of them will be back shadow-lurking now despite regularly describing the place as things like "dumpster fire".

Either way - he backed off when she made it clear she wasn't interested. That was where he chose not to cross the line into criminality.

I agree.

Malka should have been more up front with this community. Dont let shit like that Amirox business fester. Just come out and speak to it, be honest and say it really fucking sucks.

Yes, definitely. It's a horrible horrible situation, but the best thing is to come out immediately and disavow him.

Just say yeah I tried to hit it, I misread the signals so yeah I fucked up. But thats it!

Again, agreed. Trying to character assassinate her is pretty tasteless. It's okay to admit misreading the signals and making a mistake, especially if he was drunk and they were staying in a hotel room together.

I wonder if Malka/GAF needs to hire a PR person.

 

[numble]

Read the article

He did ‘hit that’ ... some time after the shower thing actually.

That’s why some of us are arguing we don’t know shit, and everyone jumping to conclusions is a fucking troll.

When making the point that we don’t know shit and should stop trolling, you replied with this.

Along with your posts in this thread, Sounds to me like you’re embracing mob mentality and ignorant trolling.

There are articles out there with interviews with sources. Some people have witnessed the incidents in question and the discussions/confirmations with former mods. It isn't true that people don't know shit. We do know about past incidents, false statements made in the past, and the statements made that resulted in mods resigning en masse. It is not really jumping to conclusions and ignorant trolling to form conclusions similar to those mods when they decided to resign.

 

[blankempathy]

When making the point that we don't know shit and should stop trolling, you replied with this.

Along with your posts in this thread, Sounds to me like you're embracing mob mentality and ignorant trolling.

Actually no this is the statement I replied to.

Far from the point, as he is as deserving of his privacy as you or I. But the ignorant trolls jumping to conclusions are the ones blowing things out of proportion.

This entire situation doesn't look good for either of them the more we learn, but when everyone instantly jumps to one side or the other in mob fashion as we're witnessing right here it's just ugly.

I was pointing out that the community has acted like this in the past regarding someone being accused of sexual misconduct so its not surprising its acting the same way now.

So I guess asking questions and pointing out facts that raise red flags is ignorant trolling? Cool. Don't bother responding. After all I'm just an ignorant troll embracing the mob mentality.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

And again, I'm telling you, it doesn't matter. I ended up in jail for a day because I forgot to pay a parking ticket. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone, I made an honest mistake. I still had to do it. Intentions mean jack shit when it comes to the law and how my actions hurt other people. You do something wrong, you do what an actual man should do and face up to it.

Do you realize if EL had just said, "I'm sorry that this happened, we talked it out, were in a relationship later and I thought we were in a good place, but I guess I was wrong. What can I do to help make this better" nearly no one would be pissed right now?

Man everytime I read your posts I always chuckle.

I'm sorry you got sent to prison for a parking ticket.

Unfortunately you talking about the law does indeed mean exactly what you said, jack shit.

You don't get a ticket for human interaction. It's about versions of events. And finding the nuance in each specific scenario and context... This clearly is not cut and dry. It's comical to me.

This isn't an actionable offense at all.

However his statement was overly defensive. And this could have been handled better obviously!

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

"Like me some company in there?" Not hard, is it?

"You want me to hold your hair while you throw up, you sexy thang"

 

[Gallagher1290]

It sucks i know

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Man everytime I read your posts I always chuckle.

I'm sorry you got sent to prison for a parking ticket.

Unfortunately you talking about the law does indeed mean exactly what you said, jack shit.

You don't get a ticket for human interaction. It's about versions of events. And finding the nuance in each specific scenario and context... This clearly is not cut and dry. It's comical to me.

This isn't an actionable offense at all.

However his statement was overly defensive. And this could have been handled better obviously!

Dude, you're 100% wrong. If the statute of limitations wasn't up and she wanted to press charges, EL could go to court. Why do you think he hasn't publicly admitted to anything? I'm sure his lawyers have already advised him on this.

 

[anothertech]

This incident is abuse no matter which way you cut it. It was a sexual encounter without consent. Any relationship after the fact doesn't absolve him.

But see it’s not. What it is, is a bunch of trolls that know shit about the situation jumping to conclusions and pretending they know somthing they don’t. It’s called ignorance, and mob attack mentality.

The trolling is at a point that people are making threads to get banned cause it’s cool, when they could just leave and go somewhere else.

It’s about a bunch of ignorant fucks trying to get attention by bashing the GAF owner, and that’s about it.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Dude, you're 100% wrong. If the statute of limitations wasn't up and she wanted to press charges, EL could go to court. Why do you think he hasn't publicly admitted to anything? I'm sure his lawyers have already advised him on this.

You can go to court for anything esp with enough cash. I just don't think it would hold up.

Spurious I say.

 

[Gallagher1290]

Neverminds

 

[Typical]

Quite frankly it was a massive over reaction to begin with, but that kind of was gafs thing (sometimes) man attracted to woman misread signals, man got rejected and did not pursue further, man felt stupid or annoyed after making things awkward. How shocking! Don’t forget the alcohol.

I do think it was poorly handled, a statement and one thread should have been allowed.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Quite frankly it was a massive over reaction to begin with, but that kind of was gafs thing (sometimes) man attracted to woman misread signals, man got rejected and did not pursue further, man felt stupid or annoyed after making things awkward. How shocking! Don’t forget the alcohol.

I do think it was poorly handled, a statement and one thread should have been allowed.

You're forgetting the past behavior from EL that is what ultimately drove the mod team out. This wasn't the result of just one event.

 

[DKPOWPOW]

Waaaaaiiiiiiiiit a minute.

After the shower thing she dated him and had sex with him ?

Then she tells the shower story after they break up ?

Ugh ....?

Yeah, honestly this really gave me mixed feelings about the whole thing. How do you go to dating someone you felt was a "predator" and tried to sexually assault you? It doesn't make any sense.

I kinda feel like it's a witch hunt to be honest. If she had never slept with him or if she cut off contact with him after the shower thing I'd feel otherwise but...

She did, and that means she was into him. Maybe not at the time, but that really puts some doubt into my mind about whether she lead him on. Staying with a guy friend, sharing the same room and getting drunk together away from your bf was an alarm. That on top of it you had an "open relationship" and dated the guy you're accusing of assaulting you... After the event happened?!?

Where's that anchorman GIF, cuz I don't believe you.

 

[Gallagher1290]

I present to you all the 2017 NEOGAF video game Awards Best scene is shwoer scene also

also hashtags here s a dickbutt for a rapist!

 

[PhantomThief]

Read the article

He did ‘hit that’ ... some time after the shower thing actually.

That’s why some of us are arguing we don’t know shit, and everyone jumping to conclusions is a fucking troll.

I read the article. I know he had sexual relations with her later.

So why now is Malka saying she's unstable and mentally ill? Before when he was jumping into the shower with her and then later having sex with her he obviously had no qualms about doing so.

Now all of a sudden she's mentally unstable? Fake ass explanation imo.

 

[Poona]

This is just messed up how a post by Ima Leupp on her Facebook can bring a forum offline like it did and be the most possibly damaging thing to this forum in it's whole lifetime. I really liked coming here for the the info I found out over the years (and everything else positive the forum had).

No matter who is at fault for this initial incident I don't get how she can supposedly continue an intimate relationship of sorts with him after this incident if it was so bad.

Then she later says "I wasn't trying to call him out" and that she was just responding to a hashtag. Ok if she wasn't trying for all the attention and didn't want to call him out then she shouldn't have put his name (could have just had the story without putting a name to the person in it like I saw so many other people do), and two all the hashtag stuff I thought was in response to Alyssa Milano on Twitter not making big write-ups on Facebook.

Just sad if a popular and well known forum like this doesn't recover all because of one post someone made on their facebook.

 

[dolabla]

Waaaaaiiiiiiiiit a minute.

After the shower thing she dated him and had sex with him ?

Then she tells the shower story after they break up ?

Ugh ....?

Yep, it's pretty bizarre. And from the outside looking in, it lends more toward a bullshit charge against EvilLore than a guilty charge.