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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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A

apana

Member
Here are all the special effects scenes I want to see:

1. Daenerys in the House of the Undying in all its glory. I want to see every part of that. Spend 10 million if you have to people. (Well I guess it is already made, or not.) Every vision and event that occured in those pages.

2. Bran warging and his green dreams about the sea swallowing Winterfell. I also want to see Meera and Jojen swear the Ice and Fire oath to him like they did in the book.

3. Battle of the Blackwater in all its glory and then some.

4. Jon witnessing the amassing of the Wildling forces with Giants. I want that whole sequence with him and the Halfhand tracking the wildlings to be replicated perfectly. This would ideally include Bran communicating to Jon in a dream.

5. Shadow BABIES!

6. Bran's visions from season 1 that they skipped out. It doesn't need to be the exact same but it does need to touch upon more of the elements of his first vision in the book.

7. Theon imagining that wolves are chasing him and he is making love to a woman with the head of a wolf that is digging her claws into his back.
 
T

tmdorsey

Member
So the general consensus is that Jon wargs into Ghost for a bit while Melisandre heals his body?

I hope GRRM is ready to start on that back like Jan 3rd. You had a long enough break fat man!
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
tmdorsey said:
So the general consensus is that Jon wargs into Ghost for a bit while Melisandre heals his body?

I hope GRRM is ready to start on that back like Jan 3rd. You had a long enough break fat man!
Click to expand...

When did he say that he planned on starting?

Also, can we expect a shorter gap between this and TWOW than we've experienced with the last book? I mean all the story lines have come back together.

Also what fucking idiot told GRRM that it would be a good idea to write parallel books rather than just split the complete book in half. Seriously, if that WAS GRRM's idea then his publisher should have slapped him and told him he was an idiot.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
A friend of mine had a different theory:

Jon Wargs into Ghost for a while, but then the prophecy says that he is going to be go into another body. Rather than his own, it will be Stannis Baratheon. It would make a lot of sense, given how sure Melisandre is that he is Azor A'hai, and why his sword glows for him but ineptly. He is a god's body without a god's soul. The sword glows but won't have any affect until Azor Ahai wields it.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
zmoney said:
what fucking idiot told GRRM that it would be a good idea to write parallel books rather than just split the complete book in half. Seriously, if that WAS GRRM's idea then his publisher should have slapped him and told him he was an idiot.
Click to expand...

It was Daniel Abraham's idea.
Also, can we expect a shorter gap between this and TWOW than we've experienced with the last book? I mean all the story lines have come back together.
Click to expand...
He has to juggle like 20 POVs, I wouldn't expect the next book to be simple or easy to write. It might not take 6 years, but I doubt it will take much less than 4. Summer 2015 is probably the earliest date possible for it.
 
i_am_ben

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Basileus777 said:
It was Daniel Abraham's idea.

He has to juggle like 20 POVs, I wouldn't expect the next book to be simple or easy to write. It might not take 6 years, but I doubt it will take less than 4.
Click to expand...

Especially as he didn't resolve anything in aDWD. I'm also expecting him to add another 1 or 2 books to the series.
 
G

gate777

Member
AngryMoth said:
Well he did get stabbed at least 4 times. I guess it isn't beyond Melisandre's powers to heal him given the president set by Thoros of Myr.
Click to expand...

I think you mean precedent.

Regarding Jon Snow, everyone has a hypothesis but we won't really know until book 6 comes out. I doubt he's dead though. Melisandre has a large role to play in his fate.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
GRRM has said he'll start writing again at the start of next year, but who knows exactly when he'll deem that to be. 2011 was the biggest, most successful year of his life. It was also the busiest and most hectic.

I don't think it'll take 6 years for TWOW, as others have said. While the Meerenese Knot hasn't been cut completely to pieces, I think it's tattered enough to ensure the next book doesn't become a disaster to write/re-write like ADWD was. Everyone is back on the same timeline, or close enough for it not to matter.

Unfortunately the amount of POVs is still enormous. I think it's safe to say TWOW will be quite the eventful, climatic novel, and hopefully we see many characters/POVs die.

I wonder how different fan reaction to ADWD would have been if the two huge battles were kept, and perhaps some of the AFFC cliff hangers were moved to TWOW.
 
T

tmdorsey

Member
zmoney said:
When did he say that he planned on starting?

Also, can we expect a shorter gap between this and TWOW than we've experienced with the last book? I mean all the story lines have come back together.

Also what fucking idiot told GRRM that it would be a good idea to write parallel books rather than just split the complete book in half. Seriously, if that WAS GRRM's idea then his publisher should have slapped him and told him he was an idiot.
Click to expand...


There was some quote in one of these threads where it talked about him starting back writing the beginning of the new year.


I think the gap as to be shorter since he doesn't have that knot to deal with anymore. I'm going to go ahead and put my bet in for 2014.
 
A

apana

Member
I think his next two books are going to be fairly massive, probably the longest in the series, considering how much ground there is to cover. He may want to consider getting rid of the appendix which explains the lineages of the different houses and is not really necessary for those of us who are going to be reading this far into the series.
 
R

rando14

Member
apana said:
I think his next two books are going to be fairly massive, probably the longest in the series, considering how much ground there is to cover. He may want to consider getting rid of the appendix which explains the lineages of the different houses and is not really necessary for those of us who are going to be reading this far into the series.
Click to expand...

I use those really frequently. It helps for minor characters, which are often long forgotten in waits between books.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Yea, TWOW is going to cover so much shit. Although to be fair we said the same about ADWD and it didn't cover a lot of things we all assumed would be here. But I'm still gonna make a list!

-The Battle For Winterfell (be it the actual battle or the aftermath)
-The Siege of Mereen
-Aegon's conquest: we get a glimpse in the TWOW sample chapter
-Tyrion, Victarian, and Marwyn's journey to Daeny
-Jon's fate/The Wall
-Sansa, Harry The Heir, and Littlefinger's game
-Lannister, Tyrell tension and the return of Cersei
-Davos' journey to find Rickon
-Jaime and Lady Stoneheart
-Margery's trial
-Daeny's journey...wherever

etc etc etc. Lots of stuff
 
U

User 85168

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
Yea, TWOW is going to cover so much shit. Although to be fair we said the same about ADWD and it didn't cover a lot of things we all assumed would be here. But I'm still gonna make a list!

-The Battle For Winterfell (be it the actual battle or the aftermath)
-The Siege of Mereen
-Aegon's conquest: we get a glimpse in the TWOW sample chapter
-Tyrion, Victarian, and Marwyn's journey to Daeny
-Jon's fate/The Wall
-Sansa, Harry The Heir, and Littlefinger's game
-Lannister, Tyrell tension and the return of Cersei
-Davos' journey to find Rickon
-Jaime and Lady Stoneheart
-Margery's trial
-Daeny's journey...wherever

etc etc etc. Lots of stuff
Click to expand...

There's a TWOW sample chapter?
 
P

Pkaz01

Member
Don't forget the mystery of what the Faceless Men are up to and what Sam is doing in.

And of course Arya and what the hell she is going to do, and Bran who is another wildcard.

Oh and don't forget the Blackfish and Sandor Clegane's fates.

Good luck getting that into one or two books GRRM.
 
A

apana

Member
I think it is very likely that Bran will have to go deeper into the Lands of Always Winter and see what is out there, probably the source of the White Walkers/The Great Other. I remember in his first vision he talked about seeing a wall of light far in the North. It is a very common trope that one of the heroes has to journey and find the "bad guy" at the end and struggle with him somehow. George RR Martin likes to play with our expectations about fantasy and I think he will add his own twist to that type of journey. Maybe he will portray the Others as sympathetic characters. That is probably for Book 7.

In Book 6, Winds of Winter, Bran will probably have to deal with Bloodraven. I have a strong feeling that he may be a bad guy. Remember George likes to play with our expectations. We have seen so many stories where the young hero meets a wise man or teacher who guides him on his quest. The only way to turn that on its head is if the teacher turns out to be not so nice or needs something from the student.
 
A

apana

Member
My biggest guess for Winds of Winter is that Jon has to get his body back and fight with wights that will be crossing the sea. Right at the end when it seems everything is about to go right for Jon and a lot of the other characters, the wall cracks and we see Patchface laughing with blood in his mouth....
 
A

Azrael

Member
ZeroRay said:
Hoping for 2014, probably coming late 2015. Everything points to TWOW being the most eventful book in the series. Hopefully that translates to George writing faster, rather than having to figure out what the hell to do.

GRRM did a TWOW reading back in September (spoilers obviously):

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57570-twow-spoilers-arianne-ii-part-2/
Click to expand...

There's also a sample Theon chapter on GRRM's website now.

http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
 
B

bluemax

Banned
GURM said:
BOOK FOUR WILL BE PUBLISHED IN FALL, 2002. WATCH THIS SPACE FOR MORE DETAILS. ~August 2001
Click to expand...

GURM said:
Book four is now titled A FEAST FOR CROWS. I am still writing it. I don't know when it will be out, and neither does anyone else. Please stop emailing me to ask. The very minute the book is done and delivered, I will announce it here.

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS will be volume five. I won't start worrying about that one in earnest until the crows have feasted.

I am sorry for the delay, and I thank all my readers for their patience. ~August 2002
Click to expand...

GURM said:
YES, I'M STILL WORKING ON IT. HONEST.

I used to get a lot of email asking me when A FEAST FOR CROWS would be published, so I put a message up here. "SORRY, STILL NOT DONE YET." That one. So now I get a lot of emails asking me when I am going to update the message on my website, since it's been unchanged for months.

It's been unchanged because... well, nothing's changed.

A FEAST FOR CROWS is still not done. I continue to work on it, and I'm making steady progress, but more slowly than anyone would like. Various websites and bookshops have announced various publication dates, but until the book is actually finished and delivered, they are all pure guesswork.

As I have said here before, I am writing as fast as I can, but my first priority is still to make the novel as good as it can possibly be. The moment the book is done I will announce it here. The instant. The second. So if you visit this website, and this notice is still in place, it means I'm still writing.

A number of my readers have suggested that I update this page more often, and include reports on my progress. Not an unreasonable request, but of course the more time I spend writing progress reports, the less time I have to actually work on the book. So I won't make any promises in that regard.

Yesterday I finished another chapter, the thirty-second (though I do move these chapters around from time to time, so it probably won't be the thirty-second when FEAST is finally published). It's an Alayne chapter, and with it in place, I now have 738 manuscript pages in something very close to final draft form. I also have four or five additional chapters, roughly another 100 pages, that are close to completion, and then maybe another 100 to 200 pages of fragmentary chapters, scenes, lines, and notes, some of which will wind up in FEAST, some of which may be pushed into the next volume, of some of which will likely be scrapped. So that's where I am right now.

No, I can't tell you when A FEAST FOR CROWS will be finished, or when it will be published. Not yet. When I know, I'll tell you.

Meanwhile, I am putting up a sample chapter. I hope that it will help a little with the wait. You can read it here. Enjoy.

I thank you once again for your patience.

--George R.R. Martin, October 23, 2003
Click to expand...

GURM said:
YES, I'M STILL WORKING ON IT. HONEST.

Well, 2003 has come to an end... but sad to say, A FEAST FOR CROWS hasn't.

I'm getting closer, though, page by bloody page. Yesterday I finished another chapter, the forty-first (though I do move these chapters around as I write, so it probably won't be the forty-first when FEAST is finally published). It's a Davos chapter, his second in the volume.

I now have 911 manuscript pages in something very close to final draft form. I also have about eight additional chapters in fragmentary form, a couple of them fairly close to completion. But there's more that will be needed after that. I don't believe in saying, "Okay, I've got X number of pages, that's enough, I'll end the book." Each volume is a part of the overall story, but also needs its own beginning, middle, climax, and end to make for a satisfying read. As I have said here before, I am writing as fast as I can, but my first priority is to make the novel as good as it be.

The moment the book is done I will announce it here. The instant. The second. So if you visit this website, and this notice is still in place, it means I'm still writing. Various websites and bookshops have announced various publication dates, but until the book is actually finished and delivered, they are all pure guesswork.

No one really knows when A FEAST FOR CROWS will be finished, or when it will be published. Especially not me. When I do, know, I'll tell you here. For now, though, the only answer must remain, "As soon as possible."

Once again, I'd like to thank all my readers for their patience and support.

--George R.R. Martin, January 4, 2004
Click to expand...

I said that I hoped to have the book done by the end of the year. Famous last words. No, it's not done, though I am getting closer. I have more than thirteen hundred pages in final draft form and another hundred or so in roughs or fragments, but there are still some chapters yet to write. I'm telling myself that I'm on the home stretch. As soon as FEAST as done, I will announce it here.

—George R.R. Martin, January 17, 2005
Click to expand...

And this is only SOME of the progress quotes for aFFc. The lesson here is not to believe any progress update from old Georgie except the one that say it is on shelves and you can purchase it.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Nice chapter.
Karstark's treachery being discovered and the probable impending Manderly attack on the Freys makes it even more likely that Ramsey's letter to Jon was complete BS. Fake Arya being sent to the Wall is pretty interesting, especially if Jon is still "dead" at the time. It seems like Bran is going to save Theon, I wonder what direction Theon's story is heading now.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
chiym1992 said:
There's a TWOW sample chapter?
Click to expand...

He read an
Arianne
chapter awhile ago, which included a major development/spoiler. And today the first official chapter was released on his website (for a different POV)

Given what Martin and his editor have said in the past, it's safe to say this new POV was once in ADWD
 
B

brentech

Member
Uhh, reading the sample chapter is like getting a few drips of a drug into the IV. Now I have the shakes. Must...have....much and more!
 
A

apana

Member
ZeroRay said:
Pretty good chapter.
Looks like Bran's gonna be a major force now.
Click to expand...

Why will
Bran be a major force?
I must have missed something.

edit: Wait a minute I think I may understand now. Still I would like it if someone could explain it so I can see if my guess is correct.
 
G

gate777

Member
^^
Probably because he's a "shape-shifter" and can take the form of trees and all their memories. He'll probably be a force to be reckoned with when it comes to speaking the truth of past events. That's my guess.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
That chapter was pretty awesome. Hmmm

-Surely this chapter supports the theory that Ramsay's letter was fake. It seems likely that the Manderly forces will kill off the Freys as a sign of fealty to Stannis. Perhaps they'll bring back Stannis' sword as proof that he has been defeated. Perhaps the Manderlys will return to Winterfell with Stannis' men posing as members of their army; that would be a pretty badass way to siege the castle without breaking the walls.

-Sounds like Bran might try to save Theon?

-Some of the best Stannis moments are here. I won't how he plans on dealing with Ramsay's much larger army

-The knight and Poole/Fake Arya will reach the Wall after Jon's death, so no one will be able to recognize her as a fraud.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
apana said:
Why will
Bran be a major force?
I must have missed something.

edit: Wait a minute I think I may understand now. Still I would like it if someone could explain it so I can see if my guess is correct.
Click to expand...

Bran's taking control of the Ravens in order make Stannis take Theon to the trees, where some cool shit is probably gonna go down since he now has a voice through them.

Also it looks like Jeyne's on her way to Braavos, setting up a meeting between real Arya maybe.
 
A

Azrael

Member
Basileus777 said:
Nice chapter.
Karstark's treachery being discovered and the probable impending Manderly attack on the Freys makes it even more likely that Ramsey's letter to Jon was complete BS. Fake Arya being sent to the Wall is pretty interesting, especially if Jon is still "dead" at the time. It seems like Bran is going to save Theon, I wonder what direction Theon's story is heading now.
Click to expand...

But the chapter also invalidates one of the primary justifications readers have put forth to dismiss the letter.
If Stannis lost, they say, why doesn't Ramsay know where Jeyne and Theon are? Well, now we know Stannis had sent Jeyne to Castle Black with Ser Justin Massey before the battle began. With Bran intervening on Theon's behalf for some unknown purpose, we can't assume he was at Stannis' camp at the time of the battle either.
 
G

gate777

Member
PhoenixDark said:
That chapter was pretty awesome. Hmmm

-Surely this chapter supports the theory that Ramsay's letter was fake. It seems likely that the Manderly forces will kill off the Freys as a sign of fealty to Stannis. Perhaps they'll bring back Stannis' sword as proof that he has been defeated. Perhaps the Manderlys will return to Winterfell with Stannis' men posing as members of their army; that would be a pretty badass way to siege the castle without breaking the walls.

-Sounds like Bran might try to save Theon?

-Some of the best Stannis moments are here. I won't how he plans on dealing with Ramsay's much larger army

-The knight and Poole/Fake Arya will reach the Wall after Jon's death, so no one will be able to recognize her as a fraud.
Click to expand...

Regarding your last line.

If ghost is still there he won't take to Poole very friendly, at least not what everyone there would have expected. If it was Arya, then ghost would be friendly towards her and vice-versa. Just a theory.

edit - why all the spoilers? I thought this was an "anything goes" thread.
 
A

Azrael

Member
gate777 said:
Regarding your last line.

If ghost is still there he won't take to Poole very friendly, at least not what everyone there would have expected. If it was Arya, then ghost would be friendly towards her and vice-versa. Just a theory.

edit - why all the spoilers? I thought this was an "anything goes" thread.
Click to expand...

Dance spoilers don't need to be marked, but Winds spoilers should be tagged.
 
A

Azrael

Member
PhoenixDark said:
That chapter was pretty awesome. Hmmm

-Surely this chapter supports the theory that Ramsay's letter was fake. It seems likely that the Manderly forces will kill off the Freys as a sign of fealty to Stannis. Perhaps they'll bring back Stannis' sword as proof that he has been defeated.
Click to expand...

If Theon is right and Ramsay is leading a Bolton force into battle, that complicates things. The Manderlys then couldn't just kill the Freys, return to Winterfell with Lightbringer, and say they won.
 
A

apana

Member
One of my supsicions has been that
Bloodraven takes control of Bran and uses him to orchestrate events. There is definitely some reason that George just ended the Bran chapters so quickly in ADWD.
 
D

Dresden

Member
Old and all that, but I still wish Mr. Martin had said fuck it and just done the timeskip, picking up where shit starts going down.

Bakker took a twenty year timeskip and it worked out fabulously well. Turns out you can fill in the blanks perfectly well without dedicating 2000 pages to it. And Bakker's not the most subtle writer out there. Worst thing is that after AFFC/DWD the story hasn't advanced all that much - the pieces are still left poised and waiting.

e: also GRRM's site looks straight outta 1999, someone needs to lend a hand and clean it up a little.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Dresden said:
Old and all that, but I still wish Mr. Martin had said fuck it and just done the timeskip, picking up where shit starts going down.

Bakker took a twenty year timeskip and it worked out fabulously well. Turns out you can fill in the blanks perfectly well without dedicating 2000 pages to it. And Bakker's not the most subtle writer out there. Worst thing is that after AFFC/DWD the story hasn't advanced all that much - the pieces are still left poised and waiting.

e: also GRRM's site looks straight outta 1999, someone needs to lend a hand and clean it up a little.
Click to expand...

It's interesting that you mention Bakker. He's said in interviews how when writing The Judging Eye he had wanted to bring in new characters, build them up, explore them and so on. However, he'd then said he'd been self-indulgent and went back and cut most of them out. The catalyst for this change, according to him? Reading A Feast for Crows.

Here's the quotes:
I know when I started working on The Judging Eye, I found myself inventing a whole series of new viewpoint characters. I didn’t realize what I was doing until I started reading A Feast for Crows, at which point I scrubbed them all save one. I told myself I was adding these new viewpoint characters for the reader’s sake, when in actual fact I was doing it for my own - I mean, multiply the time you’ve spent with The Prince of Nothing by a thousand, and you’ll have a rough ballpark sense of how much time I’ve spent with my cast. The urge to "freshen things up" is almost irresistible, as is the attendant assumption that you’re doing it as much for your readers as for yourself. But when you already have a complicated narrative on the go, you really do risk drifting across that fateful line where your story starts to decohere. Whether or not this was what happened with Martin’s last book, I’m not sure - all I know is that it threw what I was doing into perspective, and led me to take an entirely different tack. It took me a while, but I eventually fell back in love with the old fogies.
Click to expand...
I actually scrapped my initial attempt at writing The Judging Eye because I realized I was creating characters simply because I was burned out on my original cast. Everyone rationalizes the path of least resistence, but I sometimes think that writers are particularly gifted in this regard.
Click to expand...
 
T

TCRS

Banned
I just quickly googled Bakker, I've never heard of him before. A Prince of Nothing seems very interesting, I think I'm going to give it a shot after I'm done with Elantris.
 
G

gutshot

Member
PhoenixDark said:
Yea, TWOW is going to cover so much shit. Although to be fair we said the same about ADWD and it didn't cover a lot of things we all assumed would be here. But I'm still gonna make a list!

-The Battle For Winterfell (be it the actual battle or the aftermath)
-The Siege of Mereen
-Aegon's conquest: we get a glimpse in the TWOW sample chapter
-Tyrion, Victarian, and Marwyn's journey to Daeny
-Jon's fate/The Wall
-Sansa, Harry The Heir, and Littlefinger's game
-Lannister, Tyrell tension and the return of Cersei
-Davos' journey to find Rickon
-Jaime and Lady Stoneheart
-Margery's trial
-Daeny's journey...wherever

etc etc etc. Lots of stuff
Click to expand...

It pains me to say this, but I am finding it really hard to care about any of that stuff.

And the Theon chapter? I am so lost on who is coming to kill whom and what side they are supposedly on that none of it had any impact with me. It was just a bunch of names that I had no connection to. This story has gotten way too broad.
 
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