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X-COM: Enemy Unknown Game Informer Mag Details [Up8: Sid Meier Talks XCOM]

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For the purpose of me not going insane here are the things that have been stated as facts (correct if I'm wrong) that I have complained about:

- Only four members of a team initially
- Removal of time unit system in favour of simplified move and shoot system
- Only able to build one custom base
- No more differentiation between Aimed/Snap/Auto shots
- Soldiers are (eventually) signed up into 'classes'
- Introduction of 'perk' system
- No kneeling
- No/unlimited ammo

From this I conclude that the game will be substantially different to the game I was hoping it would be, and is, to my mind, "dumbed down". I don't understand why it's bad for me to have an opinion on a discussion forum?

And again I feel I must state that it could still be an awesome game (I hope it is), but I don't believe it will be awesome for the same reasons as the original.

Huh, didn't know about some of these. Seems like a big shame, while I very much enjoy those types of games(sounds familiar to a number of SPRG's I've played & enjoyed), I was hoping, even with the loss of TU's which I knew about that there would still be a lot of the more freeform style that the original XCOM's represented.

Still very interested as a huge fan of the overall genre, but no longer particularly interested as an xcom fan.
 
But even if that is the case, that doesn't change with the perk system

This is just pure speculation if we are talking about the new game but if it's true in some ways the perk system can still only limit the possibilities. If I have a "shoots more than 2 hexes away" perk on a vet sniper then a rookie can't fill his shoes if there is an alien 6 hexes away.
 
As a pretty big XCOM fan, I find that some of the changes they made make sense. While not bringing enough ammo to the fray was great for some tension later in battles, removing that need is also a nice, modern bonus.

This last update is the first to really get me excited about the new game!
 

Bizazedo

Member
The only thing that concerns me is only starting with four guys. It just seems...odd. Hopefully, it won't last long.

So long as they preserve the possibility of things happening that shouldn't percentage wise (that rookie making an amazing long range shot to save the day for example) instead of outright banning things, it'll be fine.
 
UFO often isn't about finding who is the best at something and having them do it. It's about who has the opportunity to do something and what sort of last ditch plan you can put together with what is left.

Much of the time, EU was Helmuth von Moltke's "no plan survives contact with the enemy" with a coat of alien menace. No matter how well-equipped your squad, how carefully you nursed the development of your rookies into specialities and how disciplined your plan of attack, the whole edifice could come crumbling down as as one trooper collapsed to psionic attack, or a particularly resilient Chrysalid wreaked body-horror havoc through an isolated group of soldiers.
 
- Only four members of a team initially
- Removal of time unit system in favour of simplified move and shoot system
- Only able to build one custom base
- No more differentiation between Aimed/Snap/Auto shots
- Soldiers are (eventually) signed up into 'classes'
- Introduction of 'perk' system
- No kneeling
- No/unlimited ammo

The dumbing down annoys me also. It must be a developer curse to never remake xcom properly. Why did they put out a video saying how much they respect the original, then remove TUs, give infinite ammo, etc?

Also it looks like rocket launchers are just single use, since there's no ammo. All this 'streamlining' has knock on effects for the rest of the game.
 

robin2

Member
Picking up weapons from the dead is not uncommon in X-Com, especially for the soldiers equipped with rocket launcher during long missions.
 

Emitan

Member
The dumbing down annoys me also. It must be a developer curse to never remake xcom properly. Why did they put out a video saying how much they respect the original, then remove TUs, give infinite ammo, etc?

Also it looks like rocket launchers are just single use, since there's no ammo. All this 'streamlining' has knock on effects for the rest of the game.

It's not unlimited ammo, it's unlimited magazines. You still have to reload, which uses one of your two actions that turn.
 
Much of the time, EU was Helmuth von Moltke's "no plan survives contact with the enemy" with a coat of alien menace. No matter how well-equipped your squad, how carefully you nursed the development of your rookies into specialities and how disciplined your plan of attack, the whole edifice could come crumbling down as as one trooper collapsed to psionic attack, or a particularly resilient Chrysalid wreaked body-horror havoc through an isolated group of soldiers.

No plan survives disembarkation from the Skyranger.
 

robin2

Member
This is just pure speculation if we are talking about the new game but if it's true in some ways the perk system can still only limit the possibilities. If I have a "shoots more than 2 hexes away" perk on a vet sniper then a rookie can't fill his shoes if there is an alien 6 hexes away.
Yeah this.
The move+action system is worse than TUs system because is less flexible.

And it's actually the one which is more over-designed between the two: TUs system just needs an handful of basic actions; move+action system, to have the same variety and richness, needs (as they provided) special attacks, powers, stances, perks, units with defined roles (classes), and so on.



I don't understand the argument "it needs to be changed because it is 19 years old".
What needed to be changed? And why? Changing for the sake of change?
What is the better game design for a virtually equal result of "depth", between: a system where you have 5 actions to use in flexible way, or a system with 2 fixed actions with a lot of situational powers?
 
Are you sure that isn't streamlined out? There's no inventory...
Did they confirm that there is no inventory? I don't think that's accurate. All we know is there is a button that lets you switch weapons. The two are not mutually exclusive.

This is just pure speculation if we are talking about the new game but if it's true in some ways the perk system can still only limit the possibilities. If I have a "shoots more than 2 hexes away" perk on a vet sniper then a rookie can't fill his shoes if there is an alien 6 hexes away.
That doesn't sound like a real perk. The example given in the OP is

Apologies if the article was unclear, but the deal is that sniper rifles are unusual in that they take a full turn to shoot. You can unlock a move-shoot perk for snipers at some experience level, but your basic sniper rifle takes a full turn to fire.
Let's not start making up fake perks and then criticizing them. It doesn't really help the discussion.
 
OK, those two things have confirmed my worst fears, it's pretty much 'My First X-com'. The more I read the more it is clear that this game has been dumbed down. Perhaps not for console gamers specifically, but certainly to cater for what they perceive as modern gamers who can't handle depth. Not saying they're wrong BTW, they'll probably make more money this way, but it's certainly not the game I was hoping it would be.

They seem to have approached the game design from a "Shooting aliens is cool! Let's make a squad shooter!" angle, rather than a "X-com was an AWESOME game, what made it so?" point of view. I imagine they would argue that there is no appetite anymore for hard games where setbacks were actually damaging, but I would point them in the direction of Demon's/Dark Souls.

As for the four guys only at first thing, ignoring that that makes no sense from a storyline point of view, for me it pretty much confirms that your soldiers will be death machines straight from the off (at least compared to the original), if they'd kept the original balance you'd lose every mission you started.

Just so, so disappointed, and thank f*ck for Xenonauts.


everyone just auto shotted 24/7 anyways. OR AT LEAST SHOULD HAVE BEEN!
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Are you sure that isn't streamlined out? There's no inventory...

Do we know if weapons are regulated to the classes specialties? Like a sniper couldn't equip a weapon meant for a soldier etc? If that was the case, I doubt picking up weapons would be a concern.
 
they should have had a Rookie named Nick Jones in some of these shots for nostalgia-sake. :)


They can save a money on hiring a music composer and just use the same music from the PS1 version. YEAH!
 
They seem to have approached the game design from a "Shooting aliens is cool! Let's make a squad shooter!" angle, rather than a "X-com was an AWESOME game, what made it so?" point of view. I imagine they would argue that there is no appetite anymore for hard games where setbacks were actually damaging, but I would point them in the direction of Demon's/Dark Souls.

Did you watch the video with the dev team? The whole thing is basically rebutting exactly these points: the project lead is an X-COM fanatic, he forced the entire team to play hundreds of hours of the original in hopes of recapturing some of its magic, and he specifically cites Dark Souls as an inspiration as a game that engaged players with its challenge.

As for the four guys only at first thing, ignoring that that makes no sense from a storyline point of view, for me it pretty much confirms that your soldiers will be death machines straight from the off (at least compared to the original), if they'd kept the original balance you'd lose every mission you started.

The game isn't going to have the original balance (of tossing you completely unprepared into wildly difficult situations), it was never going to have that balance, and people shouldn't want for it to have that balance.

The trend of educating players through gameplay about how to actually play a game is a good one. Easing the player in upfront is the best way to introduce a series of complex mechanics that become truly challenging and deep as the game progresses.

These are game systems that people have seen before. Got to be able to reach conclusions at some point.

It's reasonable to draw conclusions when there's an in-depth preview or playable build at a tradeshow and therefore there's enough information to tease out a fairly comprehensive picture of the turn-by-turn system. It's reasonable to voice concerns, but not to draw conclusions, based on knowledge of some mechanics outside of the full context. It's definitely reasonable to give the team some benefit of the doubt given the info they've provided so far as to their design philosophy for the game.

This is just pure speculation if we are talking about the new game but if it's true in some ways the perk system can still only limit the possibilities. If I have a "shoots more than 2 hexes away" perk on a vet sniper then a rookie can't fill his shoes if there is an alien 6 hexes away.

I think "the game must absolutely not allow individual soldiers to develop any unique abilities" is a wildly unreasonable standard. It's one thing to say that any soldier should be able to pick up a sniper rifle and fire it (that's absolutely true) but another to suggest that someone trained as a medic or a demolitions expert should be able to do everything the sniper can do with it except at an accuracy penalty.
 
It's reasonable to draw conclusions when there's an in-depth preview or playable build at a tradeshow and therefore there's enough information to tease out a fairly comprehensive picture of the turn-by-turn system. It's reasonable to voice concerns, but not to draw conclusions, based on knowledge of some mechanics outside of the full context. It's definitely reasonable to give the team some benefit of the doubt given the info they've provided so far as to their design philosophy for the game.

I think "the game must absolutely not allow individual soldiers to develop any unique abilities" is a wildly unreasonable standard. It's one thing to say that any soldier should be able to pick up a sniper rifle and fire it (that's absolutely true) but another to suggest that someone trained as a medic or a demolitions expert should be able to do everything the sniper can do with it except at an accuracy penalty.

I have fairly long established conclusions on what I like about this sort of game and can decide pretty quickly about the sort of design decisions I like more. Maybe I can be won over or maybe it's just wrong to think that this game is so well implemented that it will turn all my preconceptions on their head.

It's not a wildly unreasonable standard for me when I say that I much prefer the original system of not having perks to games I have played with unlockable perks, skills or whatever. It's one of the things that I personally like about the original a lot. I can't stop people putting stuff like this in or preferring it just like I can't stop people preferring FPS or RPGs to strategy games.
 

TheKurgan

Member
Very pumped about an proper X-COM remake - I still play the original from time to time. While I can live with most of the simplifications and/or improvements to the gameplay I am really disappointed with "Only able to build one custom base". For me planning bases layout for defence against late game alien attacks was one of the cool strategy elements of the orignal game. Are all expansion bases going to be cookie cutter?
 

Mattdaddy

Gold Member
The original is one of my favorite games ever, but I'm still excited to see how some of the changes turn out. The only thing that worried me was the "just one home base" thing, but the more I thought about it... it didn't really bother me. It sounds like the intercept hangers and listening posts will provide the functions that I mainly needed alternate bases for anyway.

Also I'm not going to miss kneeling with a new cover system. That was one thing I always wanted in old school XCOM.

The perks dont bother me, it's kinda nice to get a reward for keeping soldiers and gaining exp. I don't think it will break anything. I mean this is a pretty common game mechanic in some form nowadays, I'm not surprised its there.

God I can't wait. Any sniff of when this is expected??
 
Very pumped about an proper X-COM remake - I still play the original from time to time. While I can live with most of the simplifications and/or improvements to the gameplay I am really disappointed with "Only able to build one custom base". For me planning bases layout for defence against late game alien attacks was one of the cool strategy elements of the orignal game. Are all expansion bases going to be cookie cutter?
Not sure of the exact details but you will be able to place radar stations and hangars all over the world; don't know if those two things will be separate or included in one prefab base.
 

Mattdaddy

Gold Member
Very pumped about an proper X-COM remake - I still play the original from time to time. While I can live with most of the simplifications and/or improvements to the gameplay I am really disappointed with "Only able to build one custom base". For me planning bases layout for defence against late game alien attacks was one of the cool strategy elements of the orignal game. Are all expansion bases going to be cookie cutter?

The way I understood base building was, you get one "home base" that you custom build. This base will be larger in scale and have more features than the old xcom bases. Outside of that, you can build listening posts/radar stations around the globe to track UFO activity, and you can also build intercept hangers globally to launch your attack planes from. But as for an actual base with living quarters, science labs, etc. you just get the one big one.
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
The way I understood base building was, you get one "home base" that you custom build. This base will be larger in scale and have more features than the old xcom bases. Outside of that, you can build listening posts/radar stations around the globe to track UFO activity, and you can also build intercept hangers globally to launch your attack planes from. But as for an actual base with living quarters, science labs, etc. you just get the one big one.

I'm totally ok with this.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
The game isn't going to have the original balance (of tossing you completely unprepared into wildly difficult situations), it was never going to have that balance, and people shouldn't want for it to have that balance.

The trend of educating players through gameplay about how to actually play a game is a good one. Easing the player in upfront is the best way to introduce a series of complex mechanics that become truly challenging and deep as the game progresses.

Except the original fall or fly mentality fit the game better. XCOM is all about being well and truly fucked.
 

ruttyboy

Member
Did you watch the video with the dev team? The whole thing is basically rebutting exactly these points: the project lead is an X-COM fanatic, he forced the entire team to play hundreds of hours of the original in hopes of recapturing some of its magic, and he specifically cites Dark Souls as an inspiration as a game that engaged players with its challenge.

The game isn't going to have the original balance (of tossing you completely unprepared into wildly difficult situations), it was never going to have that balance, and people shouldn't want for it to have that balance.

I haven't seen the video no, but words are meaningless, it doesn't rebutt anything. If he's such a fanatic, how come we've ended up with a game that in so many crucial aspects (game mechanics, not art direction) differs wildly from the original? The very things that made the original so great.

Why shouldn't people want that balance? Why would we want to change one of the things we most enjoyed about one of our favourite games, that's such an arbitrary claim telling us what we should want according to you.

In any Xcom thread, what are the things that people most often reminisce about fondly? It's walking off the Skyranger into a shitty situation, it's getting most of your men blown up in one turn, it's having a soldier go insane and take out half your team. These are the things that people enjoyed and remembered, not the UI. Why would we we want it to change, just because most games are 6 hour tutorials these days, that entirely misses the point, we still love the game because it was different, because we haven't been given that same experience again.
 
Do we have any idea how far this game is from release?

I'm really hoping it's less than 6 months out.
I think somewhere they said Fall but now I can't find it.

Edit:
US magazine Game Informer revealed Enemy Unknown, saying it "introduces a wider console audience to what made the storied franchise great in the first place". It launches on PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 this autumn.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
I think somewhere they said Fall but now I can't find it.

From here:

XCOM: Enemy Unknown comes out for Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and PC this fall. Until then, check up on our XCOM hub page all month long as we bring you exclusive new content including video interviews with the team leads and the legendary Sid Meier himself.

Sometime before January 2013 if all goes well.

Edit: Interesting that Eurogamer switches GI's use of "fall" for "autumn" as they don't mean exactly the same thing.

Edit2: In this case they do though!
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Civilization V launched on September 21st.

I doubt they would launch much later than that given they will be focusing on Borderlands 2, BioShock Infinite, and GTA V.
 
Hmm... it still sounds like a lot of fun but I have to say some of that stuff worries me. No kneeling and replacing TUs with move/shoot in particular, but the inventory questions are pretty huge for me too. I don't like the idea of "classes" with set loadouts for XCOM, it flies in the face of the idea of letting me have fine control over my squad.
 
For folks who are deadset on this being exactly like the old one there is still Xenonauts.

indeed. I've already placed my pre-order on xenonauts a number of months ago.

I'm looking forward to playing both of them when they come out. I figure that with the new X-Com, that some of the core ideas that I enjoyed (TA's, auto-shot, etc) were being removed in order to "streamline" it, but if I want to play an actual homage to the original, even with its 60-70's theme going for it, my best bet would be with Xenonauts. Playing through the releases they've put out have been quite fun (even though they're limited in what they do at the moment), and it makes me want the final product even more.
 

fresquito

Member
indeed. I've already placed my pre-order on xenonauts a number of months ago.

I'm looking forward to playing both of them when they come out
. I figure that with the new X-Com, that some of the core ideas that I enjoyed (TA's, auto-shot, etc) were being removed in order to "streamline" it, but if I want to play an actual homage to the original, even with its 60-70's theme going for it, my best bet would be with Xenonauts. Playing through the releases they've put out have been quite fun (even though they're limited in what they do at the moment), and it makes me want the final product even more.
Can't you play the alpha? How's it? I've seen some videos and the AI seems to be nowhere to be found.
 
It sounds so dumbed down, you'll probably find more complex squad/tactical mechanics in Front Mission 5 or Operation Darkness (which despite having an awful camera, is a decent game).
 
Except the original fall or fly mentality fit the game better. XCOM is all about being well and truly fucked.

I just don't see any reason that has to apply from absolute moment one. It's entirely viable to give people the experience of overwhelmingly superior forces hemming them in by starting them off easy and then rapidly, aggressively ramping up the challenge and making the player's adversaries gain in power far faster than the player does.

If he's such a fanatic, how come we've ended up with a game that in so many crucial aspects (game mechanics, not art direction) differs wildly from the original?

Because it's a different game. This is not a remake of X-COM; it's a new game in the franchise that needs to distinguish itself from the original, take into account developments in gaming over the last fifteen years, and sell itself in a very different market and to a very different audience. Look at Civilization: every entry of that series reimagines its fundamental mechanics in often significant ways, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse -- not because any given developer didn't play and love Civ 2 (or whatever) but because the old game is still there and they're working on a new one.

Literally every time there's a franchise revival of a well-liked series from the past, people flip out and issue ill-advised hyperbole about how X, Y, Z change from the precise mechanics of the previous entry will ruin everything forever!! It is rarely based on any meaningful analysis of how the game works in practice (because people are going on out-of-context scraps of information) and they rarely line up that well with people's actual response to the game once it's released.

Again, it's one thing to discuss the mechanics and say why you think a change to X, Y, or Z is problematic, but you've leapt completely beyond measured analysis and to the point of undirected fanrage based on a very tiny amount of information.
 
Literally every time there's a franchise revival of a well-liked series from the past, people flip out and issue ill-advised hyperbole about how X, Y, Z change from the precise mechanics of the previous entry will ruin everything forever!! It is rarely based on any meaningful analysis of how the game works in practice (because people are going on out-of-context scraps of information) and they rarely line up that well with people's actual response to the game once it's released.

But we all still mourn the loss of aimed groin shots in Fallout, no matter how high 3/nv/4 score/sell!
 
But we all still mourn the loss of aimed groin shots in Fallout, no matter how high 3/nv/4 score/sell!

I'm not even saying this game will necessarily be good, or that even if it is good there won't be some indescribable loss compared to the original, or whatever, I'm just saying that hearing about a few mechanics without much context and deciding that the game is made by casual posers who want to piss on the series' legacy is hella dumb.
 
I am super curious about how the global overlay and the importance of initial base placement will be. If there is only one base allowed in the game the decision of the base placement may hinder response time to other countries later in the game.

I wonder if they will employ a Civilization based decision on where you start (USA- increase production, Japan - increased research) as well as bonus funding to specific regions of the world.

Man, I am going to say this again; So glad they have Microprose vets and Firaxis working on this game.
 
I'm not even saying this game will necessarily be good, or that even if it is good there won't be some indescribable loss compared to the original, or whatever, I'm just saying that hearing about a few mechanics without much context and deciding that the game is made by casual posers who want to piss on the series' legacy is hella dumb.


Honestly, I don't care if this game ends up being "Xcom for Babyz". It's still closer to what I want than the most epic modern shooter with details down to the smallest glossed mapped nipple hair.

I learned to love Fallout 3, I can learn to love this.
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
I'm just so indescribably jazzed that 2K is actually listening to fan feedback and releasing this along with the shooter that I'm willing to meet them halfway, changes or no.
 

epmode

Member
Then you were LOSING. Auto shot for life.

The only time I use anything else is when I desperately need to get a shot off but I don't have enough time for an auto.

BTW, after starting up X-Com for the first time in a while, I think the people talking about an unusable interface are certifiably batty. It's not great but it's certainly nowhere near the crazy you'll find in other games with similar complaints. All you need is a little cheat sheet that explains what the combat icons mean and you'll pick it up quickly.

And that neat UFO Extender mod even allows for little tweaks that smooth out the rough edges.
 

Emitan

Member
Then you were LOSING. Auto shot for life.

The only time I use anything else is when I desperately need to get a shot off but I don't have enough time for an auto.

BTW, after starting up X-Com for the first time in a while, I think the people talking about an unusable interface are certifiably batty. It's not great but it's certainly nowhere near the crazy you'll find in other games with similar complaints. All you need is a little cheat sheet that explains what the combat icons mean and you'll pick it up quickly.

And that neat UFO Extender mod even allows for little tweaks that smooth out the rough edges.

It's more than just the actual UI in combat. Why can't I see my soldiers' stats when giving out equipment? Things like that just make it hard to play.
 
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