About 10 gamecubes I reckon...
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IGN Rumor: Xbox 3 GPU ~= AMD 6670, Wii U ~5x current gen, Xbox 3 ~6x, Dev Kits August
- Thread starter NateDrake
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About 10 gamecubes I reckon...
bgassassin
Member
As late of a response this was I would have thought you'd read all the posts first before saying this.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I hope the 360 successor uses 2x 7970s or something so we get a $1200 console that's the size of a midtower PC and as noisy as a jet engine.
But I expect it to be a custom ATI part using GCN that's somewhere around 800-900 GFLOPs. That would be a nice leap over current generation consoles (and probably somewhere in the ballpark of the 7700 series cards), while still being small, efficient, and cheap at 28 or 32nm.
But I expect it to be a custom ATI part using GCN that's somewhere around 800-900 GFLOPs. That would be a nice leap over current generation consoles (and probably somewhere in the ballpark of the 7700 series cards), while still being small, efficient, and cheap at 28 or 32nm.
OK, can anyone :
make a table of all GPUs past and present (till 2008) with respectively :
And please mark in red which ones can be excluded for size/power consumption reasons and the one that are weaker than Xenos. I am too much of a noob to do it myself. Then, put it in the OP.
This would cease all chat about the GPU and let us focus on CPU.
make a table of all GPUs past and present (till 2008) with respectively :
- number of SPUs
- power consumption
- eventually graving process (40 nm, etc.)
And please mark in red which ones can be excluded for size/power consumption reasons and the one that are weaker than Xenos. I am too much of a noob to do it myself. Then, put it in the OP.
This would cease all chat about the GPU and let us focus on CPU.
That would be quite a list and tons of red: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think CPU talk is very interesting to most since consoles aren't really CPU limited in most genres (stuff like strategy games being the main exception). It's safe to say it's probably going to be custom IBM CPU probably based on a scaled back POWER7 (similar to WiiU). Cut down cache, probably reduced clock speeds. Probably no out-of-order execution since the 360 CPU didn't have it and it cuts down the size of the chip (and cost) a bit. Will probably retain two threads per core rather than the four per core of the P7.
There also isn't much point at looking at older GPUs since something in the most recent family will compare reasonably closely to it. And even if it's not immensely powerful it's still probably going to use the latest and greatest architecture, which is currently GCN for AMD.
There is no in-order Power 7. Either it will be an evolution of the in-order PPE (that was in the Cell / 360 CPU) or it will be the same out-of-order chip they sold Nintendo with an additional core or something. The same way IBM sold the PPE CPU design they made for Sony to MS for their tri-core.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I can't see Microsoft going with such a cut and dry, barebones CPU like they used in the 360 unless the clockspeed is through the roof. So the other option seems way more likely since it could improve early yields, although yields might not matter in that case unless Microsoft used a different node than Nintendo. Plausible depending on how far apart the launches are.
The GPU (and memory too) is much more interesting to talk about than the CPU. CPUs don't matter since 2005. Also your request isn't going to help you anything as there's a pretty big chance the Next Xbox' GPU isn't going to be a seperate chip at all, so comparing stand-alone GPUs isn't going to tell us much at all.
As StevieP said, the CPU for the next Xbox is either going to be an improved Xenon architecture, or the architecture that's in the Wii U (most likely the latter, though the first could help MS in other ways). It doesn't matter that much if they are both fast enough to keep up with the GPU.
The most interesting thing about the recent rumours is the SoC allegation. This would put them into an interesting corner in terms of CPU/GPU architecture and thermal envelopes and such. And it would suggest that Microsoft is really serious about taking over the *family* living room (and not so much the gamer's dorm room).
Actually MS wanted the Xenon to be an OoO chip but IBM couldn't deliver, so they settled with what they got. They also wanted it to be clocked at 3.5GHz, but IBM couldn't deliver on that front either.
The next CPU will be OoO, that's almost a sure thing. If they do go with a newer Power architecture, it's also unlikely that they would cut out any threads IMO.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Wonder what size SoC would be reasonable. Trying to figure how big a SoC would be with a quad core Power7 with cache reductions (P7 has a ton of cache, probably drop all the way down to 8MB L3 or so), a 7700 range GPU, a pool of eDRAM, and off-chip system RAM.
That could be small enough, especially since they should have it all to 32 or 28nm at launch. (fixed)
That could be small enough, especially since they should have it all to 32 or 28nm at launch. (fixed)
iamshadowlark
Banned
Im still baffled that people still shout the cpu doesnt matter. Go write a freaking game loop for one of the HD twins and come back and tell me how it doesnt matter.
The going rumour is 32nm. And whatever the Wii U CPU (and by extension, the Xbox 3 CPU if IBM pulls a PPE) will not be analogous to Power7. It will be customized to hell and back and won't resemble the current Power 7 - too big for a console in its native form.
Perhaps what people mean to say is that "it matters less" than it once did. Which is true. Balance is key in the equation of CPU + GPU + Memory
IMO it sounds like the next Xbox won't have eDRAM.
You can always skew an argument to favor an opinion, but that doesn't paint an accurate picture.
Of course CPUs are important, anyone saying otherwise should have their opinion ignored.
However how fast a game loop runs on a CPU is not indicative to the system's overall performance.
You all have convinced me that this rumor is way more realistic than I had hoped for. 5x performance (than 360/PS3 or X1800 for those wanting specifics) will still allow for more gameplay variation in sandbox games and FPS, and optimizations with DX11 will allow for better PC ports, so it's not so bad.
Not so bad in 2013, sure. This thing will be ancient by 2017, however.
if the rumor is true, Microsoft has set a very low bar for their technology at launch.
palpabl_purpura
Member
Quite the opposite, I think MS invested too much in the CPU. First gen games only used 1 core, I'm not sure about games today's though. .. It's clear that the GPUs this gen were underperformers. 1080 resolutions did not seem unreasonable, considering PC games were running at similar resolutions for quite some time. Unfortunately, there are several high profile titles, such as PDZ, COD, Halo 3, etc that need to run in sub HD just to maintain framerate. Too much CPU power, not enough juice from the GPU and not enough VRAM.
Just like all modern consoles before it. Heck they are ancient 2-3 years in. The only reason why its not so apparent this gen, is because PC as the primary platform, pushing the modern gfx card, is long gone.
Forsaken82
Member
God forbid another 5 year console cycle...
iamshadowlark
Banned
I think you might've missed my point and what you said about the game loop is mighty funny too but i'll ignore that. The fact that you cant try to run branch heavy code on these machines is a major crux. One that if you care about anything other than polygons and pixel shaders you would want corrected in the next machines. If you think that these companies wont put a significant amount of effort and time in designing these CPUs then you are fooling nobody but yourself.
That 6670 is going to be vintage by 2023...
You can go ahead and put me on suicide watch if they plan on having another 8 year cycle with this shitty tech leap.
Im praying this rumor is bunk or something got lost in translation.
I've crossed blades with people in the PS4 thread for suggesting that Microsoft could be going for Xenon again. On a SoC for a game console you'd want to spend as much space on the GPU as possible. Xenon cores are very small, and chosen specifically for their small die size. If IBM increased the cache and improved on the branch prediction somehow it would also be a different beast than what is in the 360 now.
It might be feasible for Microsoft to choose Xenon over the Wii U arch simply so they could spend more chip area on the GPU. There are probably much more advantages in cutting back on the CPU for a better GPU. It's an interesting design choice they have to make there. It also depends on the size of the Wii U arch cores and whether they are capable of running straight 360 code for BC.
I'd love for that to be the case but I doubt it.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
That would be the worst idea ever.
There's nothing MS could possibly put in the nextbox that wouldn't be horribly outdated 2 years after launch.
Insane Metal
Member
Sounds about right. Just remember the GPUs the PS3 and the 360 use. How outdated they are.
At most, there will be something like a GeForce Ti 560, being highly optimistic. But even that I doubt.
At most, there will be something like a GeForce Ti 560, being highly optimistic. But even that I doubt.
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
Sorry.
I had opened a bunch of threads in tabs and had my reply ready when I was interrupted by real life. I hit submit reply when I came back so I didn't see your post had already been addressed.
Death Dealer
Member
I predict it will be around 100% better than Wii-U, basically twice as powerful, 2(5x), not 20%. In other words, 10x this generation.
If next xbox turns out to be an overclocked Wii-U, I don't see it taking off.
Nintendo has the first party IPs, and will be the first out of the gate, plus the 3rd party games would look virtually identical. I guess you could count on Live being better than whatever Nintendo comes up with, but I think Nintendo's online will be free.
That is unless MS are planning to differentiate their product by pricing it lower than Nintendo. Which would suck. I can't believe people get so cheap about a $50-100 difference in a retail console price. And I am no trust fund baby. It is so little extra to pay for worthwhile improvements that pay dividends over the years.
But I don't see MS aiming that low. My guess is Wii-U will be 5x this gen, Next Xbox twice as powerful as that, with PS4 around 2.5-3x more powerful than Wii-U.
That is doable since it appears Sony could be launching 1-1.5 years later than Wii-U, probably won't have as expensive of controllers/motion control, and will likely cost a bit more at retail to start. I can see Wii-U costing $350 and PS4 costing as much as $400-450.
piSquaredOver6
Banned
The Radeon x1950xtx is slightly better than Xenos. So youre looking at a quite a list.
TUROK
Member
Seriously?! How can anyone who knows their tech say this, especially after seeing what the Cell can do? I mean, just look at Uncharted's or Max Payne 3's animation system and try to tell me that CPU's don't matter.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
thats actually pretty good considering its a closed system/console
piSquaredOver6
Banned
this. id rather see cool animations better AI and super ultra mega physics and fluid simulation than better graphics. what good are pretty polys and textures if theyre static?
Who even says MS has to go with something akin to 6670? This article is stupid, really. They can take best bits from low end to top end of AMDs cards. They need alus? Instead of useless 480 they can double it or even triple the number. They don't need 32 ROPs from 7970, they can put 8 or 16. They can choose what they need according to their goals, no body forces them to use something like 6670 because that(I'll be rude a bit here) shit sucks. But with double or triple amount of ALUs and higher clocks, its another ballgame. Thats why they are using custom GPU, not off shelf.
infinityBCRT
Member
That actually would be the best idea ever. The key would be that they'd have to force devs to ensure the game runs well on hardware that was released within the last 4 years so that you aren't boned if you have something thats 1 or 2 generations old.
Cmd. Pishad'aç
Banned
By 2023, you will be vintage, let alone a pc graphics card.
There was a thread on Reddit about this a few weeks ago. A visual effects guy who worked on those scene posted. He just put in the Xbox 720 logo in for a joke.
Projectjustice
Banned
6670 tech for the next gen for a console thats will be on the market 9 years? Yea this smells like MS is trying to pull a Nintendo Wii in the next gen with Kinect instead. No thanks if this is the case, count my ass out.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
There's more money in shorter highly profitable generations.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
But for the last two generations, MS and Sony have been people into longer generations that begin with hardware sold at loss with the expectation to make it up in the long term. I wonder how those who were brought up on the Playstation brand would take this....
Angelus Errare
Banned
1. Apple sells at a profit
2. Creating hardware to sell at a profit in the console space and offers a graphical upgrade every 2 years but not costing the consumer more than $499
Not happening.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
There is going to be lots and lots of crying, kicking and screaming, "I'M JUST GOING PC!", and then when the world hasn't ended and great games still release finally acceptance.
Projectjustice
Banned
Ill make my Xbox 360 last me another 6 years. There are tons of games I havent played yet. Nintendo Wii U or whatever they gonna call it is sounding pretty good right about now. Cant count on Sony either, they are bleeding more money than a stuffed pig.
Cmd. Pishad'aç
Banned
Many of the naysayers in here will shred apart in tears of joy when they see their beloved MS franchises in better graphics, even if it is just an "overclocked Wii U"
Diminishing returns are a bitch.
Diminishing returns are a bitch.
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