Support NeoGAF

[alphaNoid]

So? For now they're still small compared to pcgaming market and for many years to come they will remain small compared to whole pc market.
What's more, majority of those tablets sales will be either iPads or Kindles. So while I understand push for tablets in W8 making it bring zero improvements for pcgamers ,only possible grievances seem pretty weird move, considering that Windows 8 tablet userbase is unlikely to ever come close to Windows gamers userbase.

You're in for a world of hurt. Tablets and tablet based OS/apps are the future and the way MS is headed completely. If it were up to them they would get rid of the desktop entirely, but they have legacy and enterprise applications to support for the next installment of their OS. Once WinRT really takes off, the idea of a "Desktop" will be about as ancient as our great grandfathers sitting around the radio at night.

PC gaming and PC gaming devs will have to learn to adapt to these changes or be left in the dust. The days of sitting in front of your home "computer" and doing everything are days of the past and all that nostalgia you are grasping hold of so much will soon be gone. Guys like you, core pc gamers are a point percentage, fraction of the market and you are not the focus of evolving OS's and you will be left in the dust.

Change... frightening ain't it old man?

Spoiler

I'm participating in the Microsoft TAP program at my work, we are basically alpha testing and helping development of core/key Windows applications and design. Everything is going WinRT, and x86, desktop styled applications are a thing of the past. Expect to see them in Windows 8, do not expect to see them in Windows 9.

 

[Wiktor]

Do hardcore PC gamers really spend much time playing browser games?

Few years ago I would say not. But this is changing very quickly. Currently there already are many browser games that appeal to hardcore pcgamers and their numbers will only grow. Not to mention browser gaming became a great venue for debuting indie developers.

This makes as much sense as saying you have to switch from the start menu to the desktop on Windows 7.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can only launch full screen apps from start menu. What if you want to launch Steam or Origin? Or any game with launcher (either official or fan-made)?

A Windows Store which doesn't operate yet, and is an incremental service?

the whole OS isn't out yet And AFAIK it will be the only way to get Metro apps.

Desktop mode is in Windows 8. The UI is just a mechanism to get to the game, and it looks like the new Metro interface would make getting into games as quick as, if not quicker than Windows 7.

Except games that won't be able to launch through metro. If you're a pcgamer it just makes sense to stick to UI that allows you to play any game you want (either browser or installed one), which in this case will be desktop UI.

I think you have something of a point with the flash-games issue, but really the way of the future is not flash.

No, but neither is HTML5 when it comes to browser games.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

the whole OS isn't out yet And AFAIK it will be the only way to get Metro apps.

As long as the store isn't constrained like the iOS store is, I don't see this as a problem. If it is constrained... well fuck that shit.

 

[dLMN8R]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can only launch full screen apps from start menu. What if you want to launch Steam or Origin? Or any game with launcher (either official or fan-made)?

The Start Screen is the replacement for the Start Menu. Pin a shortcut to the Start Screen. Click it. You're in the Desktop. Done.

Except games that won't be able to launch through metro.

This is not true. Perhaps you missed my post on the bottom of the previous page?

Oh. you misunderstood me. What I'm whining about is desktop/laptop use of Windows 8. I don't see it as a problem for tablet. What I'm complaining about is that bassicaly Metro seems like it might end up being useless outside tablets for majority of people.

While the interface is great, it's limitations mean there's bassicaly no real reason not to stick to desktop mode when on desktop or laptop, at least from perspective of gamer. And if that's the case, then unless one has convertible tablet there simply isn't any incentive to upgrade to Windows 8. Especially since there's not even a new DirectX version in it.

Lack of browser games, having to constantly switch to desktop mode for many games, ability to only use buy apps fom Windows Store etc. Not to mention the whole UI just isn't working as good for mouse-KB set up as desktop mode is.

I've said this before, and I still think it's true. You need to get over the idea that you're "switching to desktop mode" or that Metro is something that should be useful on desktops/laptops.

If you're using a desktop or laptop, the Start Screen is simply a replacement for the start menu and desktop gadgets. It's a launcher, and it doesn't matter whether those applications come from the store or were installed for the Desktop.


If you're using a mouse and keyboard on a laptop or desktop, why would you use the metro-style IE? Why not just use IE or Chrome or Firefox on the desktop if you actually care about sites that require plugins? You're forcing a dichotomy where none exists. The Desktop and Start Screen work just as well together as the Desktop and Start Menu does in Windows 7.

 

[Wiktor]

PC gaming and PC gaming devs will have to learn to adapt to these changes or be left in the dust.

I guess you also think TVs are going to disapear and instead people will only watch video on those tine tablet screens? Sorry, but no. Desktop form factor is here to stay. Playing games on tablets sucks donkey balls and pcgamers won't sucumb to crap like. Even if tablet PCs will become dominant, pc gamers will just dock them and continue to play with big monitors, mouses and keyboards. People have always been underestimating stubborness of pcgamers and they always end up being proven wrong.


On more broad note I personally think that anyone who considers tablets to be future of computing is ignoring the reality that's right in frong of him. The fact is that smartphones are future of personal computing, not tablets. Everything else, tablets, desktops, tvs, laptops will eventually just be empty shells, mere accessories used with conjuction with your phone

 

[Wiktor]

This is not true. Perhaps you missed my post on the bottom of the previous page?

It seems like you're recommending to completely ignore metro ui when not on tablet? Oh well, just few more days untill consumer preview, when I will be able to fully understand how all thos works.

 

[MrBig]

It seems like you're recommending to completely ignore metro ui when not on tablet.

It seems like you're trying to find ways to use something you obviously have no want to use, while other people are trying to find solutions or pointing out the realities of the situation.
You're treating the WinRT environment as this huge wall that is impeding the use of the desktop, but for the uses you actually say you want to get out of it, it works exactly as the start menu does.

 

[Windu]

you can launch desktop apps from the start screen

The thing i was talking about earlier was if a steam metro client was possible because like iOS the new metro environment requires that all applications built for that environment go through the Windows Store. So that might prevent us from seeing other stores for metro applications and games. But normal games will not be moving to the new environment anytime soon since XP, Vista and 7 still hold a large marketshare.

 

[Wiktor]

It seems like you're trying to find ways to use something you obviously have no want to us.

Is it really bad to want to use something this cool looking for your whole computing experience instead of just limiting it to when I swivel my laptop? I guess it is

 

[Wiktor]

you can launch desktop apps from the start screen


The thing i was talking about earlier was if a steam metro client was possible because like iOS the new metro environment requires that all applications built for that environment go through the Windows Store. So that might prevent us from seeing other stores for metro applications and games.

Ok, now I understand. But help me with something more: is there anything stoppin Valve from making desktop Steam that's just stylized as metro-like? Since you can still launch it from metro ui, then you would get most of the benefits, without any restrictions

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

The thing i was talking about earlier was if a steam metro client was possible because like iOS the new metro environment requires that all applications built for that environment go through the Windows Store. So that might prevent us from seeing other stores for metro applications and games. But normal games will not be moving to the new environment anytime soon since XP, Vista and 7 still hold a large marketshare.

As both a software developer and a software consumer I cannot fathom why there is not a huge backlash against this sort of behavior. It's so anti-competitive and anti-consumer that it really sort of blows my mind.

 

[Windu]

Ok, now I understand. But help me with something more: is there anything stoppin Valve from making desktop Steam that's just stylized as metro-like? Since you can still launch it from metro ui, then you would get most of the benefits, without any restrictions

the desktop is still as open as it ever was. So yeah, valve if they wanted to they could make a metro themed client for the desktop. Also, desktop apps can be listed in the new Windows Store, microsoft does not take a cut but the store just sends them to a link to the developer's website to download it. It still has to meet certain requirements though.

As both a software developer and a software consumer I cannot fathom why there is not a huge backlash against this sort of behavior. It's so anti-competitive and anti-consumer that it really sort of blows my mind.

yep, i hate this trend. Hopefully Microsoft is pressured into changing it. Enterprises will be able to side load stuff though, but i expect just like iOS it is hacked day one to allow for people to do what they want.

 

[MrBig]

Ok, now I understand. But help me with something more: is there anything stoppin Valve from making desktop Steam that's just stylized as metro-like? Since you can still launch it from metro ui, then you would get most of the benefits, without any restrictions

Absolutely nothing. Valve can do whatever they want in their desktop application. Right now even they use their own stylized chrome as opposed to aero.

As both a software developer and a software consumer I cannot fathom why there is not a huge backlash against this sort of behavior. It's so anti-competitive and anti-consumer that it really sort of blows my mind.

Wasn't dLMN8R talking about alternative stores with their own in-app purchasing systems being allowed through cert, without any intervening on MS's part in their revenue

 

[Iced_Eagle]

As both a software developer and a software consumer I cannot fathom why there is not a huge backlash against this sort of behavior. It's so anti-competitive and anti-consumer that it really sort of blows my mind.

There is nothing in the Windows Store policy which prevents there being other stores. In fact, MS takes nothing from in-app sales. So if Valve wants to make a Steam app on Metro, they absolutely can, and MS doesn't get a cut (compare that to Apple who gets a 30% cut I believe).

Also, you don't have to make an app "metro style" to be sold in the windows store. You just have to use WinRT, which supports C/C++ and DirectX. For example, all Windows apps today currently use the Win32 API (which was designed in the 90's btw). If Valve were to modify TF2 to instead use WinRT instead of Win32 (which isn't an easy change though and would take a few months), then it could be sold in the windows store I believe.

I can't wait until the consumer preview so people can stop guessing on how Win8 will work...

 

[Windu]

There is nothing in the Windows Store policy which prevents there being other stores. In fact, MS takes nothing from in-app sales. So if Valve wants to make a Steam app on Metro, they absolutely can, and MS doesn't get a cut (compare that to Apple who gets a 30% cut I believe).

Also, you don't have to make an app "metro style" to be sold in the windows store. You just have to use WinRT, which supports C/C++ and DirectX. For example, all Windows apps today currently use the Win32 API (which was designed in the 90's btw). If Valve were to modify TF2 to instead use WinRT instead of Win32 (which isn't an easy change though and would take a few months), then it could be sold in the windows store I believe.

I can't wait until the consumer preview so people can stop guessing on how Win8 will work...

yeah, but they still have that requirement that only metro apps can be sold through their store. So like we speculated before, valve could just keep you inside their app to play their game. I guess that is how it is on their desktop client anyway.

i believe windows 8 does have that deep linking stuff like windows phone so i guess you could still get it pinned to the start screen.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

There is nothing in the Windows Store policy which prevents there being other stores. In fact, MS takes nothing from in-app sales. So if Valve wants to make a Steam app on Metro, they absolutely can, and MS doesn't get a cut (compare that to Apple who gets a 30% cut I believe).

Also, you don't have to make an app "metro style" to be sold in the windows store. You just have to use WinRT, which supports C/C++ and DirectX. For example, all Windows apps today currently use the Win32 API (which was designed in the 90's btw). If Valve were to modify TF2 to instead use WinRT instead of Win32 (which isn't an easy change though and would take a few months), then it could be sold in the windows store I believe.

I can't wait until the consumer preview so people can stop guessing on how Win8 will work...

Thanks for clarifying that. Some questions, since you seem to be in the know...

Is there any differences between policies for Metro apps and traditional apps?
Does Microsoft police the content at all, other than for malware? Are there restrictions on what types of content is allowed?
Any plans for Java support in the WinRT/Windows store?

I appreciate the info.

 

[Windu]

Thanks for clarifying that. Some questions, since you seem to be in the know...

Is there any differences between policies for Metro apps and traditional apps?
Does Microsoft police the content at all, other than for malware? Are there restrictions on what types of content is allowed?
Any plans for Java support in the WinRT/Windows store?

I appreciate the info.

there is a official windows store blog that launched a couple months ago, lots of info on there.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/
and of course the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Store

and i think they announced java support back in september

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

there is a official windows store blog that launched a couple months ago, lots of info on there.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/
and of course the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Store

and i think they announced java support back in september

Nice, thanks, I will read up.

Edit: I already find the guidelines kind of upsetting. They're setting things up for lots of arbitrary decisions about what can and can't be on their store.

 

[brotkasten]

Thanks for clarifying that. Some questions, since you seem to be in the know...

Is there any differences between policies for Metro apps and traditional apps?
Does Microsoft police the content at all, other than for malware? Are there restrictions on what types of content is allowed?
Any plans for Java support in the WinRT/Windows store?

I appreciate the info.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/archive/2012/02/13/submitting-your-windows-8-apps.aspx

 

[dLMN8R]

Let me clarify a few points:

1) You can obviously launch Desktop applications from the Start Screen. This has been true and will always be true, and was one of the first things they showed in the first UI demo they ever gave.

2) Store apps cannot launch Desktop apps. That reaches outside the sandbox in which they're allowed. A Steam app from the Windows Store can do anything it wants to within the app itself - purchase new games for your account, chat with friends, whatever else - but it cannot go a step beyond that to actually download games to the Desktop or launch games on the Desktop

3) A workaround to this is if Valve builds auto game-downloading into Steam on the Desktop itself. Right now, you can purchase games from Steam using the web site in a web browser of course. If that web site added an option "immediately start downloading to <MY PC NAME HERE>", where you're currently logged-in, there's nothing stopping Valve from building the same type of support into a Metro app from the Store that interfaces with the Desktop app through the Steam service.

4) Even crazier and less likely, but still technically possible, is a potential solution where Valve builds a service-side trigger to actually launch a game. So you could be using a Steam Metro-style app from the Store, that app sends a signal to the Steam service, and the Steam service sends a signal to the Desktop app that's running in the background that causes the Desktop app to launch a game. Crazy, convoluted implementation, but technically possible.

5) Related to the Store and Store charges, developers are not forced to use Microsoft's monitization platform If NewsCorp wants to sell subscriptions using their own money platform, they're free to do so without Microsoft taking a cut. Much more on this here. See the Store transaction platform and Third-party transactions.

It seems like you're recommending to completely ignore metro ui when not on tablet? Oh well, just few more days untill consumer preview, when I will be able to fully understand how all thos works.

No, I'm not saying "completely ignore" anything. I'm saying that you should use the Start Screen as much as you currently use the Start Menu. If you want to put some apps on there to use as live tiles, you can do so. If you want to use it to search for stuff, it works great at that. If you want to use apps from the Store, awesome. If you want to use it to launch Desktop apps, that's great too.

 

[giga]

Thanks for clarifying that. Some questions, since you seem to be in the know...

Is there any differences between policies for Metro apps and traditional apps?
Does Microsoft police the content at all, other than for malware? Are there restrictions on what types of content is allowed?
Any plans for Java support in the WinRT/Windows store?

I appreciate the info.

- Desktop apps won't be delivered through the Store, they'll only be listed.
- Yes: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx
- Java!? Ew, no.

 

[kehs]

Skydrive integration with remote acces is making my balls wet.

 

[Vanillalite]

On a side note I really wish MS would create some kind of Garageband competitor. Garageband on the iPad is soooo frick'n ridiculous for only $5. I really wish MS would come out with something similar.

 

[Takamura-San]

is there an ETA for the RC1

 

[clav]

is there an ETA for the RC1

May probably.

 

[kehs]

Are they doing public beta like win 7?

 

[Windu]

Are they doing public beta like win 7?

yes, 29th.

 

[kehs]

yes, 29th.

Awesome possum.

 

[Darkkn]

Start menu looks really hideous at this time when not a lot of programs have been made to fit into that metro grid look. This metro start menu just does not make sense to me on a desktop environment. I think OSX and Ubuntu(and gnome3 based linux distros) has the 'start menu' equivalent modernized in much better manner, fitting the desktop metaphor.
W8 stuff just looks so jarring. Can't they at least skin the desktop with Zune like style?

Here's how Ubuntu start menu looks like much better imo.

 

[kehs]

Start menu looks really hideous at this time when not a lot of programs have been made to fit into that metro grid look. This metro start menu just does not make sense to me on a desktop environment. I think OSX and Ubuntu(and gnome3 based linux distros) has the 'start menu' equivalent modernized in much better manner, fitting the desktop metaphor.
W8 stuff just looks so jarring. Can't they at least skin the desktop with Zune like style?

Here's how Ubuntu start menu looks like much better imo.

Looke like.....W7

 

[Windu]

Start menu looks really hideous at this time when not a lot of programs have been made to fit into that metro grid look. This metro start menu just does not make sense to me on a desktop environment. I think OSX and Ubuntu(and gnome3 based linux distros) has the 'start menu' equivalent modernized in much better manner, fitting the desktop metaphor.
W8 stuff just looks so jarring. Can't they at least skin the desktop with Zune like style?

Here's how Ubuntu start menu looks like much better imo.

they changed it a little bit, a little more flat

 

[AlphaDragoon]

I honestly don't get why the traditional desktop doesn't have Metro-styled skinning on it. It creates a huge disconnect between the Start screen and the OG desktop.

 

[kehs]

I honestly don't get why the traditional desktop doesn't have Metro-styled skinning on it. It creates a huge disconnect between the Start screen and the OG desktop.

They would have to skin too much legacy stuff that they potentially will need to tap into.

 

[KtSlime]

they changed it a little bit, a little more flat

http://i.imgur.com/FpEfC.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

It's an improvement.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I honestly don't get why the traditional desktop doesn't have Metro-styled skinning on it. It creates a huge disconnect between the Start screen and the OG desktop.

After seeing how the desktop UI has evolved since DP, I wouldn't be surprised to see the desktop get a newer theme than the one it currently has by launch. Remember that Windows XP didn't get its actual theme until RC. For its beta, it still looked like Win2k. I think it's possible something similar could happen with Win8 if people still think the experience is jarring.

With that said, after using the DP for months, I've gotten used to it and it's not too jarring anymore. We'll see how this experience is improved with the CP next week.

 

[brotkasten]

After seeing how the desktop UI has evolved since DP, I wouldn't be surprised to see the desktop get a newer theme than the one it currently has by launch. Remember that Windows XP didn't get its actual theme until RC. For its beta, it still looked like Win2k. I think it's possible something similar could happen with Win8 if people still think the experience is jarring.

With that said, after using the DP for months, I've gotten used to it and it's not too jarring anymore. We'll see how this experience is improved with the CP next week.

XP got the beautiful Luna theme with the Beta 2.

 

[Jzero]

I can't wait 8 days guys, and i can't find the download link to the leak

 

[show me your skeleton]

why can't they just change the bloody icons, argghhh etc.

 

[brotkasten]

Windows Live division vs Skype division ...

Microsoft reveals Windows Live web video chat existence

Windows Live video chat icons leaked out in August last year, hinting at a web video calling service for Microsoft's range of Windows Live services. The software giant appears to have confirmed its existence in a recent Building Windows 8 blog post. LiveSide spotted a video icon in the top right of Microsoft's internal "dogfood" version of SkyDrive that matches the previous icon leaks and demonstrates a green video status icon. The icon is also identical to one found in early versions of Windows 8 demonstrated by Microsoft.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/21/2813697/windows-live-video-chat-icon

Fight!

But to be fair, Windows 8 was already too far in development by the time Microsoft acquired Skype.

 

[Cheebo]

It is starting to seem like it will be Windows 9 when they get things on track. They are just trying to do too much at once. By then hopefully Windows on ARM won't have to switch to a Win7 looking desktop just to run office and the desktop on traditional machines will actually fit with Metro. I am starting to get the feeling that 8 is the Win ME to Win 9's XP.

 

[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

So I take it we're slowly moving towards all application have to be certified by either MS or one of their partners?

If so

 

[Cheebo]

So I take it we're slowly moving towards all application have to be certified by either MS or one of their partners?

If so

Eh, it's the way of things. Traditional OS's are adopting what works well on mobile OS's. And that is something that has worked out pretty well. I see it as a good move that MS & Apple are moving to this way. Makes finding and downloading apps a ton easier for the average consumer. A lot of average consumers download endless malware without realizing it.

If you don't like it you'll probably always have the option of changing your settings anyway.

 

[brotkasten]

Bwahahaha. We pretty much knew that Office for the iPad would come before Office 15, but it's also a metro style app, whereas WoA users have to use the desktop application.

Are you fucking kidding me? :lol

The Office division Mac BU is cockblocking the Windows division again everyone.

 

[Cheebo]

Bwahahaha. We pretty much knew that Office for the iPad would come before Office 15, but it's also a metro style app, whereas WoA users have to use the desktop application.

Are you fucking kidding me? :lol

The Office division is cockblocking the Windows division again.

Is this real? If so haha holy shit.

 

[brotkasten]

Is this real? If so haha holy shit.

Back in November, The Daily initially uncovered the existence of an iPad version of the Microsoft Office Suite. Sources now say that the app will soon be submitted to Apple for approval.

A brief hands-on with a working prototype of the software revealed a number of new things. The app&#8217;s user interface is similar to the current OneNote app, but it has hints of Metro, the new design language that can be seen in Windows Phone and in the as-yet-released Windows 8 desktop operating system.

Word, Excel and PowerPoint files can be created and edited locally and online. But it&#8217;s unclear if Microsoft will support other Office apps at launch or at all.

Sources close to the matter also commented that an Android version of Office is not in the works, and that an updated OneNote iOS app will also be released to reflect the Metro design language.

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/02/21/022112-tech-apps-office/

 

[Cheebo]

Yikes. I can't believe they wouldn't at least give Win8 tablets some timed exclusivity. This would probably kill any chance of Microsoft taking over the tablet market and thus the future of home computers in general. I still can't believe it. I thought they'd wait at least a year or so before giving in and releasing it on iOS.

This isn't like releasing Office on Mac, there was no chance of the Mac toppling their empire. In this case iOS already IS the empire.

 

[Treefingers]

That's hilarious.

 

[brotkasten]

To refresh everyone's memory, this is Office on Windows 8 tablets.

 

[numble]

Bwahahaha. We pretty much knew that Office for the iPad would come before Office 15, but it's also a metro style app, whereas WoA users have to use the desktop application.

http://i.imgur.com/yAV9E.jpg[IMG]

Are you fucking kidding me? :lol

The [s]Office division[/s] Mac BU is cockblocking the [s]Windows division again[/s] everyone.[/QUOTE]

It's not really Metro though. "Hints of Metro."

 

[brotkasten]

It's not really Metro though. "Hints of Metro."

So far it looks just as metro styled and more touch friendly than Office 15. It's basically Office for Windows Phone on a big screen.

We'll have to see the entire interface first, though. But if My Xbox for iOS is any hint, when it will definitely come close enough.