• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Diablo 3 Beta [Beta withdrawal underway!]

Status
Not open for further replies.

John_B

Member
Well, I could have pointed you to these, fairly detailed, impressions I wrote last month. But half of what's in there no longer applies. I think that in itself is pretty telling. Balancing a product prior to release, usually consists of moving a few numbers around, not constantly changing major systems.
I read your piece before, and can easily accept a detailed opinion like that. But these general statements people are throwing left and right (the game is dumbed down/outdated etc.), and not even bother to back up with anything, just seem like silly whining.

I think if the Diablo is doing what most developers would like to be doing: iterate until they reach a level of quality that is more than just tolerable relative to the constraints of time and money.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
In one sense it's designed to help out the casual player, but in another sense it's not.

A lot of the justification I hear about this new system is that "it's designed to be balanced for end game since that's the most time you'll be spending with your character". This is true, since you won't have access to everything until level 60, at which point you'll be dabbling in late Hell runs or Inferno runs. In the old system, you could have access to all rune variants (of at least level 1 strength since low level runes should have been dropping often) by level 30, but in the new system, you won't until 60.

Now, by design, that means that casual players who can only handle normal-nightmare difficulty will not be able to experience all potential builds.

Is this acceptable? Should "balanced for endgame and who cares about levels 1-59" be a good enough compromise?

I mean, didn't they say that "Inferno mode WILL kick your ass"? Isn't that supposed to be the realm of the hardcore players?
 

Deadstar

Member
I'd like to talk about the UI. Does anyone else think the game is too cluttered? The Diablo 2 screen was super clean. You had your bar at the bottom and then if you had a companion you could see their icon. Now in D3 you see the map, friends list icon, quest icon, chat arrows and more. It's really ridiculous. In the new patch they added an option to hide something, don't remember what it was, but it was only one piece of the puzzle.

Why do we need all this stuff on the screen? I don't like it at all. I'd also wish that the mini map was gone and an option. I'd rather pop tab to bring up the map if I get lost. It just seems annoying to me to have all this garbage on the screen. It takes me out of the experience. The only thing I can do is pray that there are UI options to hide everything above so if someone wants all that stuff on the screen they can have it but people like me who want a clean game can remove all of it. Imagine if Starcraft 2 had all this crap on the screen covering up the gameplay, it would be annoying.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I'd like to talk about the UI. Does anyone else think the game is too cluttered? The Diablo 2 screen was super clean. You had your bar at the bottom and then if you had a companion you could see their icon. Now in D3 you see the map, friends list icon, quest icon, chat arrows and more. It's really ridiculous. In the new patch they added an option to hide something, don't remember what it was, but it was only one piece of the puzzle.

Why do we need all this stuff on the screen? I don't like it at all. I'd also wish that the mini map was gone and an option. I'd rather pop tab to bring up the map if I get lost. It just seems annoying to me to have all this garbage on the screen. It takes me out of the experience. The only thing I can do is pray that there are UI options to hide everything above so if someone wants all that stuff on the screen they can have it but people like me who want a clean game can remove all of it. Imagine if Starcraft 2 had all this crap on the screen covering up the gameplay, it would be annoying.

Agreed from what I've seen. Also, I generally had the map up all the time in D2 and I quite liked the overlay method. Allowed me to switch focus without moving my eyes and thus miss something killing me. It looks like when you turn on the map overlay in D3 it pretty much greys out the whole screen.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Let's all agree to hang out in the "Witch Doctor Chat" public chat room. It's the very first chat room on the dropdown list. Be careful because there are two of each chatroom, so be sure to pick the first one.

To access the public chat rooms, look at the bottom right corner of the screen, and click the button that has the chat bubble icon. It's the second button from the right. To view a list of members currently in that chat channel, click on the cog icon to the left of the chat channel name, and select "Show Channel Members"


If you are having issues with players' names not showing up correctly, or if you get battletag related errors, your battletag ID might be borked or something. To try to reset it, go to your battlenet account page via your webbrowser, and reset your password. Doing that fixed some issues for me.

Could you send your friend request again? I tried to accept it, and the game wouldn't let me. I hit the big red X to see what would happen...and it seems rejecting a request works just fine. :(
 

Voidguts

Member
Bashiok said:
On a more serious note, I too worry that we won't be able to meet the expectations people have built up for themselves. Part of my job is managing people's expectations, so... eh... stop it. Stop thinking about how awesome this game could be. Just imagine it's a new M. Night Shyamalan movie. Sure Sixth Sense was amazing and Unbreakable had it's moments, but this right here is the sequel to The Village ... or The Happening ... or Signs ... or any of the movies besides the two I first mentioned. So just like, lower those expectations, but still definitely buy the game please, and everything will be just fine. K?

I..I-I'm going to be sick...
 
To all these new changes, I felt that they were going to do this; however, I don't like the position they put themselves in to force this change per say.

I will say this, IMHO: Blizzard may want to have the FROM Software developer come give a talk about "vision and game philosophy." Games don't need to be super hard or super easy necessarily, but it does need to have a clear vision and goal from the developer's standpoint. D3 to me shows they haven't fully embraced one.

D3 to me is turning more into a game that tries to appeal to all "market segments," which is literally impossible (from marketing theory). I think Blizzard may water down the final product so much that while will sell very well, it may also affect their brand image in the long run. Could be wrong, but that is my opinion.
 
D3 to me is turning more into a game that tries to appeal to all "market segments," which is literally impossible (from marketing theory). I think Blizzard may water down the final product so much that while will sell very well, it may also affect their brand image in the long run. Could be wrong, but that is my opinion.


I think it's 50/50, yeah they're trying to polish it to the best level of quality they can possibly deliver, but at the same time, mass appeal is probably more of a priority than it ever was for Blizzard.

And that post by Bashiok is real.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
To all these new changes, I felt that they were going to do this; however, I don't like the position they put themselves in to force this change per say.

I will say this, IMHO: Blizzard may want to have the FROM Software developer come give a talk about "vision and game philosophy." Games don't need to be super hard or super easy necessarily, but it does need to have a clear vision and goal from the developer's standpoint. D3 to me shows they haven't fully embraced one.

D3 to me is turning more into a game that tries to appeal to all "market segments," which is literally impossible (from marketing theory). I think Blizzard may water down the final product so much that while will sell very well, it may also affect their brand image in the long run. Could be wrong, but that is my opinion.

I think they have a clear vision of what they want to be, but they keep changing how they want to get there.
 

TylerD

Member
My brother and I rolled a couple of demon hunters last night and leveled to 13. Demon hunter feels really good if a bit OP after patch 13 but man is it fun.

It feels good enough to release at this point even if the skill UI could use some work. It really isn't that bad and once you know it is very straightforward. The biggest issue is when trying to swap a current skill to a different slot or if you want to use standard attacks.

I am ready to adventure beyond the skeleton king. Blizzard needs to just release the damn game so we can play and offer our criticism for future patches.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I don't know, maybe I'm just a fanboy, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I think Diablo 3 is coming along nicely. I like the changes they made to the rune skills and I think they made the right choice in overhauling the system. I think it will improve gameplay and make the leveling experience more fun. I also think it will allow us to see all kinds of creative and varied builds at endgame (inferno). I'm sad that the game isn't finished yet but I'm also glad to see they aren't afraid to make some hard choices to ensure the game is as good as they want it to be. It doesn't shake my faith in Blizzard, it strengthens it. I've never bought a Blizzard game yet that I haven't enjoyed immensely. I expect no less from Diablo 3.


Maybe I'm in the minority here?
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
My brother and I rolled a couple of demon hunters last night and leveled to 13. Demon hunter feels really good if a bit OP after patch 13 but man is it fun.

It feels good enough to release at this point even if the skill UI could use some work. It really isn't that bad and once you know it is very straightforward. The biggest issue is when trying to swap a current skill to a different slot or if you want to use standard attacks.

I am ready to adventure beyond the skeleton king. Blizzard needs to just release the damn game so we can play and offer our criticism for future patches.

I agree. I'm ready to play the full version. :p

I don't know, maybe I'm just a fanboy, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I think Diablo 3 is coming along nicely. I like the changes they made to the rune skills and I think they made the right choice in overhauling the system. I think it will improve gameplay and make the leveling experience more fun. I also think it will allow us to see all kinds of creative and varied builds at endgame (inferno). I'm sad that the game isn't finished yet but I'm also glad to see they aren't afraid to make some hard choices to ensure the game is as good as they want it to be. It doesn't shake my faith in Blizzard, it strengthens it. I've never bought a Blizzard game yet that I haven't enjoyed immensely. I expect no less from Diablo 3.


Maybe I'm in the minority here?

I think the new skill system is well done. I just think Elective mode needs some small fixes, and the skill UI is too big and doesn't offer enough information up front. Other than that? I'm mad pumped.
 
I think it's 50/50, yeah they're trying to polish it to the best level of quality they can possibly deliver, but at the same time, mass appeal is probably more of a priority than it ever was for Blizzard.

And that post by Bashiok is real.

They need a new PR representative then. That is horrible PR right there, almost to an embarrasing level from a corporate standpoint.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
True, I don't understand how something like that gets said from any official sort of capacity. Really weird.

This, coupled with the fact that Bashiok freely admitted that he hasn't even finished a run of Diablo 3 in Normal makes him awful PR.
 
I think it's 50/50, yeah they're trying to polish it to the best level of quality they can possibly deliver, but at the same time, mass appeal is probably more of a priority than it ever was for Blizzard.

And that post by Bashiok is real.

Wow that Bahiok post is really, really bad. If that doesn't scream we are attempting to cater to the lowest common denominator I don't know what does.
 

Deadstar

Member
So I was pretty hard on this game before I got into the beta based on the screens and such. After playing the beta I've become more warm to it however it does scream mass appeal which is definitely a turn off to me. When I play a game I want it to feel like it was made for fans of the genre. Games are always better when they aren't watered down. I think StarCraft II is a good example of Blizzard not watering down the gameplay, but they had no other choice because of the hardcore success and competitive nature of Starcraft. Diablo is different. They can try to grab other people who may not have initially been interested in it but by doing that they water down game mechanics making the game worse for hardcore fans. It's real hard to say because the full game isn't out. I think D3 is definitely fun, but it probably could be much better.
 

Boogdud

Member
Wow that Bahiok post is really, really bad. If that doesn't scream we are attempting to cater to the lowest common denominator I don't know what does.

I'd go a step further and say he's actually bashing their own game. I mean seriously, the village?! The Happening?! If that's not slamming the product, I don't know what is.
 
I'd go a step further and say he's actually bashing their own game. I mean seriously, the village?! The Happening?! If that's not slamming the product, I don't know what is.

I'm pretty sure he's being facetious somehow but it's difficult to tease out of the post. It reads like a poorly delivered joke but I can't quite tell where the joke is, either.
 

shiv_

Member
I was as avid a D2 player as they probably come. I've had countless guys above level 90, I've run and managed a private D2 server where friends of mine and some people from Lurker Lounge worked together to develop a mod (ironically enough we called ours Seven Lances, but it wasn't www.sevenlances.net), and I even had a high level vigor/holy fire Paladin purely for farming chipped gems in Act 1.

That being said, I was more than a little concerned when I played D3 at Blizzcon in 2009 and again in 2010. The game itself seemed fun, but the character building obviously is watered down to appeal for reasons x, y, and z. Can't pump my own base stats, can't sit on skill points for 15 levels until I am finally of level to skill up the skill I want to use. The base stats are all normalized more or less between the classes, so the gear just seems kind of boring now. I've been in the beta for a few months now, and I was not all excited about what I saw... it was 'ok'. I still could only guess how good late game would get -- I am sure it's amazing. But all the tweaks they've been making lately really kind of burned me out on getting hyped up for the game.

However, this most recent patch I think made a lot of good changes. Yes, some of the customization that we are used to seeing from D2 is watered down if you compare those specific instances to D2. However, if you compare the actual gaming experience to D2, I think D3 is much better. You don't have to wait until you have 20 points in a skill before it is actually worth using... your build is viable as soon as you turn it on. The way the newest patch presents skills and rune unlocks to the player as you level in my mind makes the progression much better than D2. It almost feels kind of MMO like, where as you level you are unlocking a bit more utility and killing power, except you don't need to sit on this new ability for 20 levels before it starts becoming useful.

There were a lot of things about the gear in D2 that I liked -- for example for leveling up, I had a full set of Sigon's socketed with +20dmg over 2 second poison jewels because they have no level req. You can tell already that D3 will have some of these quirky mechanics in it... collecting 3-8 dmg rings and amulets to significantly increase your DPS at low levels, for example.

This post ended up being kinda scatterbrained, but I am posting this during my lunch and I wanted to slam out a wall of text before I get swamped at work again! The main thing I wanted to give my 2 cents on, was that I was really not as excited as I thought I'd be for D3, but the most recent patch really turned things around for me personally. I am looking forward to the game at release. p.s. leap attack is bad ass :)
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
(Go here for the "too long didn't read" abridged cliffnotes: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35341560&postcount=7177 )

In this post I'm going to lay out a plan for an improved rune system that keeps the pros of both the old and new system, as well as eliminates as much of the cons as possible.

Old System

PRO: Character progression tied to loot drops in a way that is separate and unique from gear

PRO: All possible builds and rune combinations are possible at level 30

PRO: Rune strength progresses as you do, so there is a big impact in a players mind as he compares his level 10 wizard who only shot out 2 magic missiles at one time vs his fully leveled level 60 wizard, who can shoot out 8 magic missiles at once. Dynamism! Character progression!

con: Inventory bloat

con: 7 rune levels means that each rune level doesn't pack much of a punch relative to the one before it.

con: Keeping track of all the runes for all your characters would be a horror of micromanagement.


Current System (As of beta patch 13)

PRO: Runes impact a player more, since there's only one level.

PRO: You get to unlock something every time you level up, all the way to level 60 (carrot/stick).

con: Character progression relies on unlocking new skill runes (which you might not even want) rather than increasing the power of a particular skill rune that you are interested in. Unlocking additional skill runes for a skill doesn't necessarily make you stronger if you aren't going to use it anyway. Leveling up should be associated with increasing a characters power.

con: Certain builds will not be testable until a player reaches level 55+, when the last skill runes are unlocked.

con: No dynamic rune levels. Once you unlock a rune, that rune effect is going to look the same for the rest of your life. You can't make it any better looking.

con: A player's skill advancement will be exactly the same as another player's play experience from level 1-60 because skill progression is on rails and is already decided beforehand. Player is robbed of the freedom to choose his own path.

Design conflicts: While the new system is supposed to be easier for casual players, if they ever want to experience every possible build, they are forced to level all the way into late Hell difficulty (which isn't casual-friendly. Nor should it be. But if you want Hand of Ytar, the only way you're ever gonna see it is if you level your monk to 51, putting you right in Hell).​


QUICK SOLUTION:
There's one thing you can do that pretty much solves the biggest problem with the new system:

Instead of unlocking a particular, specific, predetermined skill rune upon level up, give the player the choice to unlock whichever rune he wants. This puts control back in the hands of the player and gives him a say in his own character progression, as it should be. There is no penalty for "choosing wrong", because eventually you will have unlocked all the runes anyway. Each player can tailor his level 1-60 play experience to his own unique preferences.

If the devs are really that strapped for time, just implement that one simple change and call it a day.



However, in my opinion, the ability to itemize runes under the old system adds a lot of depth to the gameplay, especially since Diablo is at its core a loot-whore game. Itemized runes add more things for a player to find, trade, and sell. More things to buy and sell will of course mean more activity for the auction house, and more money in Blizzard's pockets. It also presents players with an alternate means to strengthen their character that is related to loot drops but is not beholden to gear. This would give Diablo III that unique flavor that separates it from other RPGs. Without itemized and levelable runes, the skill system just seems pretty generic.

So, how do we itemize the rune system again without it turning into the micromanagement nightmare of the old system? Like this:

  • 4 levels of runes(normal, nightmare, hell, and inferno) instead of 7.
  • Runes are not class-specific and skill-specific.
  • Runes are consumable and permanently unlock the ability to choose to use that skill rune for your character's skill upon use, like a stat scroll.
  • Runes are stackable.
  • Runes are stored in a separate inventory that is shared amongst all your characters, like gold.
  • Since they are not class and skill specific, and since there are only 4 levels of power, there are only 20 unique runes in the entire game, not 3000.

At the end of the day, if a min/max hardcore player wants to have all level 4 runes available to choose for all his skills, he will have had to consume (20 x 5 x 4) = 400 runes over the course of his lifetime. That's a lot of runes to have to find/barter/buy. A normal player might be content to only have the 6 skills he uses most at level 4 (6 x 5 x 4 = 120), which is still perfectly attainable.

Having runes be consumable gets rid of a lot of the micromanagement problems. Instead of having to fumble around for the right runes to slot, you just eat it once. Set it and forget it. Once you consume a rune for a particular skill, you always have that rune available to choose from.

That pretty much eliminates or heavily mitigates all the problems of the old system, so how do we incorporate the structure of the new system as well as keeping the carrot/stick of being able to unlock something every level up?

Leveling from 1-60 gives us 59 level ups, or opportunities to unlock something. We will need more than 59 items since sometimes more than one thing unlocks at the same time.

For starters, each class has about 23 skills and 17 passives, so that's 40 items right there. There are 5 unlockable active skill slots as well as 3 unlockable passive skill slots, so that brings us to 48 items.

What other things can we unlock without having to resort to creating more skill and passives? This is where my idea of the hybrid of the old solution with the new solution comes into play.



Start with the base system as outlined above in my "QUICK SOLUTION".

A player learns a skill. 5 levels later, he can choose any level 1 rune from his "rune bag" to activate that rune for that skill. 5 levels after that, he can choose another level 1 rune from his "rune bag" to activate a second rune for that skill. He then has 2 skill runes to choose from. 5 levels later, he can pick a third rune from his "rune bag" to activate a third skill rune to choose from.

Real world example:

In the beta test, once you get to level 13 as a wizard, you have enhanced magic missile and split magic missile at your disposal. But what if you didn't want either of them? What if you would have preferred piercing missile instead? Too bad, the skill progression is already predetermined for you. Under my system, you're free to activate piercing missile at level 6 as the first unlockable skill rune if you want to.​

Hypothetical scenario:
Barbarian unlocks "Call of the Ancients" skill at level 25. At level 30 he unlocks the ability to activate a rune for that skill so he decides to consume an Obsidian rune. At level 35, he unlocks the ability to activate a second rune for that skill. His use of the Obsidian "Call of the Ancients" was very effective, but he's curious and wants to see what the other rune effects do, so he decides to consume an Alabaster rune. He tries it for 10 minutes, but decides he likes the Obsidian flavor better, so he switches back to Obsidian. At level 40, he unlocks the ability to activate a third rune, so he tries out Indigo. He might as well consume it since he as a ton of level 1 runes just from his run through of normal mode. He sees that he prefers Indigo, so he leaves it active. At level 45...etc.​

OK, moving on. So remember we have 4 levels of rune strength. Level 1 runes drop on Normal mode. Level 2 runes drop no earlier than Nightmare. Level 3 runes drop no earlier than Hell. Level 4 runes only drop on Inferno.

I've described how each individual skill rune is unlocked within a single skill, and now I will describe how rune levels are unlocked.

We have 3 categories of skills (e.g. Hatred Generator, Hatred Spender, Discipline). At predetermined levels, a character is given the choice to upgrade a particular skill category so that he can begin to consume level 2 runes for those skills:

Start of Nightmare
level 30 - unlock "level 2" runes for one skill category of your choice
level 35 - unlock "level 2" runes for one skill category of your choice
level 40 - unlock "level 2" runes for one skill category of your choice

Start of Hell
level 50 - unlock "level 3" runes for one skill category of your choice
level 53 - unlock "level 3" runes for one skill category of your choice
level 56 - unlock "level 3" runes for one skill category of your choice

Start of Inferno
level 60 - unlock "level 4" runes for all skill categories


This system allows for more carrot/stick unlocks on level up, but also forces the player into a choice: which category of skill is most important to him that he wishes to level it up first? A wizard whose gameplay revolves primarily around spamming Signature Spells would probably opt to choose to first unlock level 2 Signature Spells at level 30. Another Wizard whose gameplay revolves more around high damage, hard-hitting Offensive Spells might opt instead to unlock level 2 Offensive Spells at level 30. Forcing players to make this choice makes them feel in control of their character development and makes them actually think about their playstyle and what aspects of it are most important to them. Such critical thinking is not present at all under the current system of predestined skill rune upgrades.

Requirements to use level 1-3 runes: Unlock that level of runes for the skill category of the skill you want to use, and consume the corresponding skill rune.

Requirements to use level 4 runes: Be level 60, and levels 1, 2, and 3 are all already activated.

What this means is, if I want to use a level 3 rune, and have already unlocked the capability to do so, I can use it without having activated level 1 or 2 beforehand. However, if I want to use the level 4 version, I would also need to consume the level 1 and 2 runes first before I can consume the level 4 rune. In other words, if I'm a level 60 character who had a very static build from level 1-60 (I never used the anything else besides the same 6 skills that I planned out beforehand) and is in possession of a bunch of level 3 runes, I can consume them to try out the level 3 rune effects without having to first consume the level 1 and level 2 versions first.

Hypothetical scenario:
Level 60 Witch Doctor is playing Inferno mode, and obtains a level 3 Obsidian rune and a level 4 Obsidian rune. He's pretty satisfied with his current build at the moment. However, he never really bothered to try out "Mass Confusion". He used it a couple times when he first got it, of course, and played around with all its rune level 1 variants (because level 1 runes are common to find in Normal difficulty), but he never really bothered to level it up with level 2-4 runes. He now decides to see what Obsidian "Mass Confusion" is like at a higher level. He consumes the level 3 Obsidian rune that he just found and plays around with the skill. He likes it. He decides to incorporate that skill into his regular playstyle. Although he has one, he can't just consume a level 4 Obsidian rune just yet to power up "Mass Confusion". He has only consumed level 1, and level 3 Obsidian runes for "Mass Confusion" and you need to have unlocked all previous levels before you can unlock level 4.​

Why? Having this requirement for level 4 runes forces the player to value level 2 runes more and it also lengthens the road for character completion for min/max players. More casual players who are satisfied with level 3 runes won't really care either way.

Conclusion:

Mainly, the system I propose serves to combine the best features of the itemization with a structured leveling system that has relevance from the whole gamut of levels 1-60. Furthermore, it provides avenues of character progression that go beyond level 60, since once you hit level 60 you still need to obtain level 4 runes to attain maximum power.

Most importantly, though, it gives the player the freedom to choose. Without the freedom to choose, the player does not personalize his character since he doesn't really have much of a say in the direction of the character's growth. With the current "predestined skills" system, the freedom of choice doesn't come until level 60, when the last skill rune is unlocked. Only then do you have all the skill rune combinations freely available to pick and choose to your liking. Hell difficulty is not the time to be testing out new builds for your character.​
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Unlock 1 skill or passive every level up (40 times since there are only around that many skills per class)

Unlock the ability to activate 1 skill rune of your choice every 5 levels from the point of learning the skill

4 levels of rune power that correspond to normal, nightmare, hell, inferno

Level 1 runes drop on Normal mode. Level 2 runes drop no earlier than Nightmare. Level 3 runes drop no earlier than Hell. Level 4 runes only drop on Inferno.

Start of Nightmare
level 30 - unlock "level 2" runes for one skill category
level 35 - unlock "level 2" runes for one skill category
level 40 - unlock "level 2" runes for one skill category

Start of Hell
level 50 - unlock "level 3" runes for one skill category
level 53 - unlock "level 3" runes for one skill category
level 56 - unlock "level 3" runes for one skill category

Start of Inferno
level 60 - unlock "level 4" runes for all skill categories

Requirements to use level 1-3 runes: Unlock that level of runes for the skill category of the skill you want to use, and consume the corresponding skill rune.

Requirements to use level 4 runes: Be level 60. Levels 1, 2, and 3 are all already activated.

Runes are consumable, like a scroll. Stackable.

Separate inventory page for runes. Only 20 spots. Shared between all characters, like gold.

Runes are not class-specific

Runes are not skill-specific

Only 20 unique runes, not 3000.


Mainly, the system I propose serves to combine the best features of the itemization with a structured leveling system that has relevance from the whole gamut of levels 1-60. Furthermore, it provides avenues of character progression that go beyond level 60, since once you hit level 60 you still need to obtain level 4 runes to attain maximum power.

Most importantly, though, it gives the player the freedom to choose. Without the freedom to choose, the player does not personalize his character since he doesn't really have much of a say in the direction of the character's growth. With the current "predestined skills" system, the freedom of choice doesn't come until level 60, when the last skill rune is unlocked. Only then do you have all the skill rune combinations freely available to pick and choose to your liking. Hell difficulty is not the time to be testing out new builds for your character.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Did you post it on the Blizz forums?

No, not yet. It is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to do so. I had most of this written up yesterday and would have posted it sooner, but I got distracted by an invitation to free dinner and drinks at a nice restaurant. I also kinda want to hear what gaf has to say. Maybe everything I wrote is silly and stupid, and if so, I'd like to hear it from gaf first.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Seems fine to me. Then they can expand on unique runes over time to make more builds viable.

I dislike just having set unlocks at levels. I don't play Diablo to level and get skills or make skills how I want them to be.
 

TylerD

Member
That seems like a really great solution. Post it to the thread for the feedback on the skill runes linked at the bottom of Jay Wilson's blog post and also create a beta feedback thread.

I'm sure the few sane individuals will appreciate the thoughtful and very well thought out solution amidst the avalanche of trash. :)

Unfortunately, I think that it would be too complicated for the amoebas that will apparently be playing D3.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Could somebody please tell me what the heck is going on in Blizzard's UI department? The new skill UI is atrocious. Making me scroll all over the place to set my skills is ridiculous.

May I ask why the best and simplest UI isn't already in the game? You know, the one from Blizzard's own web-based skill calculator?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian

Under my proposed skill change system, since runes are permanently attached to your character, you will not have to deal with rune swapping, and setting skills in-game will be exactly like setting skills in the skill calculator.

Even better, under my system, it is possible for you to use the same skill twice, but with different runes. This would give players even more choices to customize their character.

Also, bring back "drag and drop" Why in the world did you take that out?

 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Too many numbers.
Too difficult to understand and draw WoW players in.

I don't know dude. I just don't know.
 

TylerD

Member
Could somebody please tell me what the heck is going on in Blizzard's UI department? The new skill UI is atrocious. Making me scroll all over the place to set my skills is ridiculous.
You dont mean scrolling, you mean pressing L1/L2 R1/R2 or LB/RB

:/

Seriously, the web skill calculator is so good.
 

erragal

Member
Under my proposed skill change system, since runes are permanently attached to your character, you will not have to deal with rune swapping, and setting skills in-game will be exactly like setting skills in the skill calculator.

Even better, under my system, it is possible for you to use the same skill twice, but with different runes. This would give players even more choices to customize their character.

Using the same skill twice with different runes would require them to rebalance every single skill. Any skill with a cooldown is specifically designed with those cooldowns in mind and being able to stack multiple version of SSS or Earthquake would result in absurdly overpowered characters without extreme rebalancing.

The benefits of longer cooldown skills is to allow for diversity in gameplay and create some tension between weak attacks/strong attacks. Contrary to how D2 worked they don't want you spamming one insanely powerful attack for 95% of your time playing the game. D2 had lots of good things going for it but the skill design was ultimately atrocious.

The reason they're not using an itemization based system is fairly obvious: They don't have the time to properly iterate on that system and release the game within the timeframes that they want. While the current system isn't ideal from an ambition standpoint it -IS- far easier to polish to a releasable state than what they had before. I know it seems like you came up with a better system in a few minutes but the reality is you haven't had hundreds of man hours spent implementing, iterating, discussing, and ultimately nixing similar systems for you to understand all of the flaws inherent in the system. Gradients for rune effects isn't really necessary with the current unlock system because the carrot is the actual higher ranked effects themselves; it's also moe fun to get large 'powerful' effects when you acquire the appropriate rune than to get a new missile onto magic missile every few levels.

Arguments that 'I can't use my build until I hit max level' are ridiculous because they've never had a system in place that allowed you to use your proper build until max or near max level. In the 'gradual progression' system of runes there would be plenty of effects that weren't worth using prior to a specific gradient. Also keep in mind this game is being heavily designed for repeat play to occur at high levels; you will hit max level long before you actually complete any of the significant challenges or acquire any of the best loot.


I do agree that their quick fix UI for the new 'guided development' is atrocious. At the very least they should make elective mode give you omething similar to the web-based UI.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Using the same skill twice with different runes would require them to rebalance every single skill. Any skill with a cooldown is specifically designed with those cooldowns in mind and being able to stack multiple version of SSS or Earthquake would result in absurdly overpowered characters without extreme rebalancing.

Cooldowns would still be in place. I didn't say that they wouldn't be, although I guess I could have been a little more clear on that point.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Arguments that 'I can't use my build until I hit max level' are ridiculous because they've never had a system in place that allowed you to use your proper build until max or near max level.

In the old system, you have all possible builds available to you at level 30, as long as you have the runes to socket.

In Diablo II, you had all possible skills unlocked by level 30. After that, it was only a matter of skill strength, not skill selection.
 

erragal

Member
Cooldowns would still be in place. I didn't say that they wouldn't be, although I guess I could have been a little more clear on that point.

So only the skills without cooldowns would really benefit from being able to 'double up'? Then you'd have to rebalance them around multiple versions being available. How would a skill like sweeping wind work if you could have five different sweeping winds available at once?

It's just one flaw I was pointing out. I just think people way underestimate how many hours are spent actually discussing the ideas that go into a game like D3 because they hate when anything is done for the sake of streamlining or efficiency.

D3 still has the most complex set of possible character builds of any loot game. Unlike games like Sacred2 or TQ these builds differ in actual functionality/animation as opposed to simply numbers being swapped around. I just can't take criticisms of D3's customization complexity seriously when it's surpassed everything else in the genre; there's simply no proper comparison. Expectations are absurd when being the best ever isn't good enough.

In the old system, you have all possible builds available to you at level 30, as long as you have the runes to socket.

In Diablo II, you had all possible skills unlocked by level 30. After that, it was only a matter of skill strength, not skill selection.


You didn't have all possible builds available because there's a significant difference between the different gradients of many of the runestones. If you could only get 'level 7' of the magic missile rune on Inferno (That was the last mentioned iteration of the gradient system they had in place) it's very possible that a build using magic missile wasn't properly running until you got that level 7 rune. Skills whose gradients were only numerical damage differences as opposed to functionality improvements were more viable at earlier levels.

I just don't find anything wrong with having abilities locked until higher levels. Incentive to level up through the third difficulty seems perfectly appropriate to me considering the game is all about the fourth difficulty. Perhaps one of their design goals is to encourage people to try all of skills out as opposed to pre-planning a build and never straying from it? That's not really a perhaps; everything in this game is about encouraging you to try everything out and find what you want to play with and even altering your build for different sections of the game. It's not how Diablo 2 was designed at all; D2 was terribly designed as you had to -save- points to make sure your build was properly set up.
 
In the old system, you have all possible builds available to you at level 30, as long as you have the runes to socket.

In Diablo II, you had all possible skills unlocked by level 30. After that, it was only a matter of skill strength, not skill selection.

The item attribute I will miss the most is +skills. You knew an item meant business when it had +skills on it in D2, but what will take its place in D3?
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
So only the skills without cooldowns would really benefit from being able to 'double up'?
It would tend to be that way. It doesn't have to guarantee that ALL skills equally benefit. That's why it's up to the player to play that way if he chooses to do so. I'm sure he'll be smart enough to realize that certain combinations are obviously stupid.

Then you'd have to rebalance them around multiple versions being available. How would a skill like sweeping wind work if you could have five different sweeping winds available at once?

New version overwrites the old version. And even if that wasn't there, the Sweeping Wind buff needs 3 stacks for max effectiveness and it's impossible to have all five on you at the same time anyway. You'd need to do a full 15 3-hit combos. Your first SW buff would have already faded after the 8th or 10th combo. Not to mention you have no skill slots left for any other useful utility skills or spirit spenders.
 

John_B

Member
So a random amount of skills unlocked by finding runes throughout the game is okay, but not having everything unlocked by level 30 is not okay?

And the new skill interface uses direct mapping - which is logical when limited to only 6 skills. Before you had to select a skill in one interface, and then organize it in another.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
I don't mean this to sound flippant in a, "Hurr durr making a game is easy durrrp" kind of way but sometimes I think Blizzard has made the task of crafting a sequel to Diablo 2 much more difficult than it ever needed to be. Know what I mean?
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
So a random amount of skills unlocked by finding runes throughout the game is okay, but not having everything unlocked by level 30 is not okay?

In my system, level 1 runes will be common enough that a player won't ever be stuck in the situation where he can't activate a rune because he lacks a rune stone. Heck, I'd probably even make level 1 runes sold from the merchants, too. Skill selection will be easy in normal. The progression after that comes from level 2-4 runes. Keep in mind that the base skills themselves still scale with player level as they always do. Level 2-4 runes only enhance the effect additionally.
 

erragal

Member
It would tend to be that way. It doesn't have to guarantee that ALL skills equally benefit. That's why it's up to the player to play that way if he chooses to do so. I'm sure he'll be smart enough to realize that certain combinations are obviously stupid.



New version overwrites the old version. And even if that wasn't there, the Sweeping Wind buff needs 3 stacks for max effectiveness and it's impossible to have all five on you at the same time anyway. You'd need to do a full 15 3-hit combos. Your first SW buff would have already faded after the 8th or 10th combo. Not to mention you have no skill slots left for any other useful utility skills or spirit spenders.


Any design which says 'the player must figure out that this is stupid' is not intelligently designed. That's obviously not how they've designed Diablo 3; everything has been iterated on so it -DOES- make sense (Outside of the UI). Every combination should benefit equally from every system; hence why all characters utilize % weapon damage as opposed to some classes raising their damage in different ways. The intelligence should be in finding a way to maximize your existing combinations not discovering how to avoid bad design decisions.


That's one way to do it; but it's also the least fun way. It means Sweeping Wind is less useful than say Exploding Palm as a skill in your system. Multiple runed versions of Exploding Palm become exponentially more powerful as their effects are all very synergistic. The other point is that your system isn't 'here you go Blizz, do this and all will be better I promise' it has just as many flaws that require discussion, design, iteration, and potential balance changes. It's not a question as to whether they COULD design an intelligent system using itemized rune drops and gradient levels of skill power; it's a question as to whether the amount of manhours/iteration is worth the benefit at this point.

It's far easier to ship a simpler base system and bring back the charm-like rune circle equipment slot as a system that adds gradient level effects to a subset of your skills in the expansion with randomized affixes. You have some of the systems you want but make it something perceived as a 'bonus' as opposed to the primary system and you also minimize the 'gotta have them all' problem as people will focus on the skills they use most as it doesn't unlock new functionality only new power gradients.

My only point is that the current system is in place to ensure a smooth release in the near future; any other system as this point requires more dev time to polish to the point they want it at.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Any design which says 'the player must figure out that this is stupid' is not intelligently designed.

Um, this is Diablo, right? The whole point of the game is to experiment with a myriad of potential builds to see what kind of skill combination suits you the best.

Besides, it's not like under my system you'd be able to gimp yourself beyond reproach like you could do in Diablo II. Every boost to your character's strength is permanent and scaled to your level and gear. The only limitation is the 6-skill limit. Respecs and skill shuffling are a mere 15-second cooldown away.

That's one way to do it; but it's also the least fun way. It means Sweeping Wind is less useful than say Exploding Palm as a skill in your system. Multiple runed versions of Exploding Palm become exponentially more powerful as their effects are all very synergistic.

Hm? How would multiple runed versions of Exploding Palm be overpowered? It's not that much different than doing the same one multiple times in a row.

Example for a hypothetical 3-skill character:

skill1: Alabaster Exploding Palm
skill2: Obsidian EP
skill3: Indigo EP.

He does the first one, then the second one, then the third one. First one makes the mob catch on fire, second one makes it take more damage, third one blows up the fire one, and puts a bleed effect on 5 more mobs. That's not much of a difference from just using the one runed ability 3 times. Plus, you're denying yourself the use of a spirit spender and a mantra.

However, if someone really wants to play like that and finds it fun, who am I to deny that? Especially if it isn't broken as hell, which it isn't.
 

forrest

formerly nacire
Could somebody please tell me what the heck is going on in Blizzard's UI department? The new skill UI is atrocious. Making me scroll all over the place to set my skills is ridiculous.

Man don't even get me started. I'm much more upset about the Skill UI and the locked hotbar slots than I am about anything to do with runes. It's like they took all the rules of UI and went the opposite direction.
 
I haven't played enough of the latest patch to really comment on the new rune system, but it really looks like Blizzard is taking a lot of stuff that they've "learned" from WoW when designing D3. The main thing being that when given a choice, the "good" players generally all flock to a few builds that have been mathematically proven to be superior while the "bad" players pick less effective builds.

In one of the Blizzcon panels I seem to remember someone stating to the effect that talents only gave the illusion of choice, as all the good players specced the same and the only choice was the choice of whether or not to be bad. I think in their minds the removal of choice ensures that every character is potentially good and a players success is only determined by their skill.

If their goal is to cater to the average gamer, I don't think the rune system in its current form is very effective. Unlocking things in a linear fashion gives the impression that features unlocked later are better than the earlier ones and I thought the point of runes was to make skills different but not necessarily better.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Unlocking things in a linear fashion gives the impression that features unlocked later are better than the earlier ones and I thought the point of runes was to make skills different but not necessarily better.

Yes, that is a big problem I have with the new system. They've mashed together character progression and character differentiation into the same path.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
You didn't have all possible builds available because there's a significant difference between the different gradients of many of the runestones. If you could only get 'level 7' of the magic missile rune on Inferno (That was the last mentioned iteration of the gradient system they had in place) it's very possible that a build using magic missile wasn't properly running until you got that level 7 rune. Skills whose gradients were only numerical damage differences as opposed to functionality improvements were more viable at earlier levels.

There's a significant difference between 1 and 7, sure, but not between 6 and 7. If a level 7 rune is so hard to get, it wouldn't have really mattered that much since you could have made do with a level 6 rune just fine. From level 30, after trying all the different level 1 runes, you have a pretty good idea of the progression rune levels would have and can start to set some long term goals. Under the new system, those long term goals are set for you. No thinking necessary. Bland.

I just don't find anything wrong with having abilities locked until higher levels.
Oh? What if in Diablo II you couldn't unlock Lightning Fury until level 60? What if you couldn't unlock Smite until level 70? That would have been ridiculous.

Incentive to level up through the third difficulty seems perfectly appropriate to me considering the game is all about the fourth difficulty.
But that's the thing. Do we really want to resign ourselves to the excuse of , "oh the REAL game doesn't start until Inferno, anyway, so who gives a shit about level 1-59"? That also flies right in the face of their goal that Inferno is ass-explodingly difficult and meant for only the strong. If that's the case, then what the heck are casuals supposed to be doing in Normal, Nightmare, and Hell if they're not even playing "the real game" yet? And what does that bode for them if they manage to get to level 60 somehow and find that they're supposed to now play in this crazy difficulty now for the "real game" meant for a different class of gamers?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom