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[kenta]

Your examples involved sequels to long running series and one new IP from a Japanese dev that you loved, yet you continue to be dismissive...

It's not like I live in a vacuum, I've seen videos of games over the years but they didn't appeal to me for reasons similar to the ones I mentioned so I didn't buy/play them

Just remembered Resident Evil 5, also a terrible game. It did try something new with the co-op, but I do not think it was successful at all. That was another nail in the coffin for me. Resident Evil 6 looks like another whiff based on the trailer

On a certain level, what you're saying has merit. Japanese games are usually designed for consumers whose tastes are very different from yours. However, it would be wise to recognize this as a matter of preference rather than couching it in terms of innovation versus stagnancy, since developers everywhere are prone to doing both, just in different ways.

I've been couching all of this as a matter of taste the whole time, duder

 

[Fire Walk With Me]

hurry weeaboos japan needs you!

 

[140.85]

I hate this new breed of hipster developers. They're insufferable.

 

[The Emperor]

Hilarious. My opinion on this has actually been reverse since I started gaming. I always found Western Devs horrible at making games and Japanese Devs to be better(Just an opinion you don't have to take it seriously). These jabs at Japanese Devs are mostly from people who don't play Japanese games anyway and just look at the long dev times. Newsflash: Square isn't the only JP Devs in town.

I think it's unfair to call out Square

Their output on the handhelds is far far superior to anything Western devs have done.

 

[Emitan]

Totally agree with him. For everyone in this thread not buying a copy of Fez because of what he said, I'll add another one on to my purchase!

So you're an asshole with tons of money?

 

[MuddyDonut]

It's not like I live in a vacuum, I've seen videos of games over the years but they didn't appeal to me for reasons similar to the ones I mentioned so I didn't buy/play them

Just remembered Resident Evil 5, also a terrible game. It did try something new with the co-op, but I do not think it was successful at all. That was another nail in the coffin for me

Another sequel and more games you haven't played.

 

[nincompoop]

No, SM64 is the best 3D Mario.

It's the best if your criteria for being the best includes
-boring empty level designs with no platforming obstacles or set pieces that require any sort of skill to traverse
-braindead enemies that pose no threat whatsoever
-idiotic level objectives like touching treasure chests in some random order
-a camera that goes out of its way to deny you a good view of the action

SM64 DS is probably a better game overall since a few of the added areas were actually pretty good. (The courses where you unlocked Mario and Wario, in particular.)

 

[survivor]

Oh man, GDC is going down the toilet if that comment didn't cause a strong response from the crowd, etc. You got a d-bag developer, kick his ass out. FFS, there are many other artists that you can feature at GDC.

I'm pretty shocked that the crowd didn't boo the Fez dude or tell him to shut up. I guess I shouldn't expect that much from them. Instead some of them were cheering.

 

[bubnbob]

Eh, not entirely wrong but definitely not the best way to address it, considering Japan is all about honor and such. Bet that dude took the next flight home immediately.

 

[J-Rod]

Some guy attempting to make colorful pixel art indie mascot platformer #969769 inspired by japanese 8-bit games from 30 years ago says a whole country's games suck.

 

[Seraphinianus]

i think it's a requirement that if you make a big-time indie game for XBLA, you have to be kind of a douche. Jonathan Blow, Team Meat, and now Phil Fish.

 

[botty]

I don't think people should skip Fez just because of this dbag. Others involved shouldn't have their talents and work overlooked because of one person.

Spoiler

I'm not getting it. No points.

 

[Emitan]

It's the best if your criteria for being the best includes
-boring empty level designs with no platforming obstacles or set pieces that require any sort of skill to traverse
-braindead enemies that pose no threat whatsoever
-idiotic level objectives like touching treasure chests in some random order
-a camera that goes out of its way to deny you a good view of the action

SM64 DS is probably a better game overall since a few of the added areas were actually pretty good. (The courses where you unlocked Mario and Wario, in particular.)

It's the best if you think freedom of movement and expression are important in platformers.

 

[Tain]

I for one am shocked that one of the dudes behind Fez has bad taste.

I guess I'd rather see him be transparent about his shitty, insulting taste than see other "indie" devs posture about theirs, but in no way will it help me care about Fez.

 

[kenta]

Another sequel and more games you haven't played.

Well you've won with your watertight logic, I guess. Japanese games don't appeal to me anymore so I don't buy Japanese games, but if I explain why I don't like them anymore I'm discredited because I don't buy them. Well-reasoned flawless victory

 

[ctrayne]

I hate this new breed of hipster developers. They're insufferable.

I know what you're saying, but the word "hipster" needs to stop being used so freely. Doesn't even mean anything.

 

[Sky_Blue]

Why shouldn't an "indie hipster" be able to participate? I don't agree with his statement, but I don't think that GDC should just have big name, big name, big name. The problem has less to do with the various standings of developers and more to do with one person answering a question in a rude and unsubstantiated way.

I have never liked the way that indie nonsense is over-rated and hyped by much of the gaming media - it really annoys me when you see websites or magazines gushing over the latest indie game talking about how it's a piece of 'art' and is 'meaningful' and 'important' when half the time the games in question are graphically pretty yet mechanically straightforward platform games that aren't even half as good as the kind of games that were around 20 years ago on the NES.

The point about the big names is just that they are 'big' because they've done so much to contribute to the industry: the people I mentioned before have been around for years, payed their dues, worked their way up and published many titles - these are the people you want to be giving talks on game design - people like Peter Molyneux, Sid Meier etc have arguably not just created games but invented entire genres. They have much to teach those who wish to learn - the average indie game maker just does not compare.

 

[Alrus]

hurry weeaboos japan needs you!

Really?

 

[snoopeasystreet]

are people really getting this butt hurt because a dude on the internet doesn't think Japanese games are great? come on lads, its not like he's a holocaust denier or anything even close.

 

[Phonomezer]

I'm pretty shocked that the crowd didn't boo the Fez or tell him to shut up. I guess I shouldn't expect that much from them.

You weren't there.

Perhaps everyone, including the Japanese developer asking the question laughed, because it was an off-the-cuff comment?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

It's not like I live in a vacuum, I've seen videos of games over the years but they didn't appeal to me for reasons similar to the ones I mentioned so I didn't buy/play them

Just remembered Resident Evil 5, also a terrible game. It did try something new with the co-op, but I do not think it was successful at all. That was another nail in the coffin for me. Resident Evil 6 looks like another whiff based on the trailer

I've been couching all of this as a matter of taste the whole time, duder

In what kind of world is RE5 a bad game? I can understand not liking it, but there's nothing broken in terms of gameplay, design, etc..., it may be as much a mediocre game but the core gameplay that make RE4 one of the best games ever is still there.

 

[survivor]

You weren't there.

Perhaps everyone, including the Japanese developer asking the question laughed, because it was an off-the-cuff comment?

Yeah that didn't happen lol

 

[RurouniZel]

hurry weeaboos japan needs you!

?

 

[KTallguy]

BTW, the "Japanese Spirit" doesn't make you make better games. We've all grown up exposed to lots of games, Japanese and otherwise. Your nationality doesn't factor into your ability to design. Your target market, however, does factor into what design principles are "normal" and accepted, and that's why very repetitive games like Monster Hunter do so well in Japan but bomb otherwise: they are just different markets with different expectations.

 

[Riposte]

I believe a good game is a good game no matter what the person making it has said. I'm not very interested in Fez because it doesn't seem particularly interesting.

hurry weeaboos japan needs you!

Sure, that's one way to interpret this thread.

BTW, the "Japanese Spirit" doesn't make you make better games. We've all grown up exposed to lots of games, Japanese and otherwise. Your nationality doesn't factor into your ability to design. Your target market, however, does factor into what design principles are "normal" and accepted, and that's why very repetitive games like Monster Hunter do so well in Japan but bomb otherwise: they are just different markets with different expectations.

Really...? Grinding isn't popular in the west? Look at the biggest trend in multiplayer. Repetitive encounters? MMOs. Don't forget Skyrim.

 

[mik83kuu]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

 

[MuddyDonut]

Well you've won with your watertight logic, I guess. Japanese games don't appeal to me anymore so I don't buy Japanese games, but if I explain why I don't like them anymore I'm discredited because I don't buy them. Well-reasoned flawless victory

And your logic is sound? I won't play these games because they don't appeal to me, but i will gladly generalize most of the developers because I played sequels to long running game franchises made by Japanese people. Why even bother talking about their output if you don't know anything?

 

[kenta]

In what kind of world is RE5 a bad game? I can understand not liking it, but there's nothing broken in terms of gameplay, design, etc..., it may be as much a mediocre game but the core gameplay that make RE4 one of the best games ever is still there.

I thought it was ugly, it wasn't tense or even creative in the ways that RE4 was, the couple of boss fights I played were dumb, and the controls were frustrating. I thought it was a bad game!

 

[the chris]

hurry weeaboos japan needs you!

 

[Orayn]

are people really getting this butt hurt because a dude on the internet doesn't think Japanese games are great? come on lads, its not like he's a holocaust denier or anything even close.

It's just dumb because he personally insulted a Japanese game developer and simultaneously claimed to be an authority on the topic of game design.

 

[Tain]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

Nah. A lot of posters, myself included, have known about Fez for a while. I was pretty disinterested by 2008 or so, and it had nothing to do with how long the game was taking to develop.

 

[Phonomezer]

Yeah that didn't happen lol

Again, you weren't there.

 

[xxczx]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

I admit to this.

 

[Tunin]

Hey, guess what? Demon's Souls.

Yep. Besides, there's new approaches everywhere. Japan is only discovering the 'grown-up' market now, the players are adults and need better experiences.
There are just a few Japanese devs doing this right in this generation, but the minority (i.e. From Software) are nailing it so hard that it's hard to ignore.

Japanese games don't suck, but their target audience do.

 

[LiK]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

newp. I was interested.

 

[hearsaybear]

Can't wait to see the metacritic user reviews on this one!

Add me to the list of not supporting ignorant, behind the times developers, no matter how "indie" they claim to be. Wasn't this the same guy complaining about how Microsoft wanted to charge less for his game? He sure knows how to alienate his customers. PC gamers, Japanese gamers, any gamer over the age of 12, who knows who he will insult next.

 

[Orayn]

Yep. Besides, there's new approaches everywhere. Japan is only discovering the 'grown-up' market now, the players are adults and need better experiences.
There are just a few Japanese devs doing this right in this generation, but the minority (i.e. From Software) are nailing it so hard that it's hard to ignore.

Japanese games don't suck, but their target audience do.

They suffer from teenage RPG fans in the same way we suffer from FPS-loving dudebros. Two sides of the same rehash coin.

 

[angelfly]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

I knew what it was and had planned on buying it day one.

 

[Wiktor]

You weren't there.

Perhaps everyone, including the Japanese developer asking the question laughed, because it was an off-the-cuff comment?

From what I hear the japanese guy actually walked out from the room.

Anyway, the Fish is arrogant as hell, but it's partly everyone's fault. I mena, the guy hasn't acomplished anything of note and yet he's at GDC panel. How is that not supposed to make a guy arrogant?

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

I was interested. Now I'm not.

 

[KTallguy]

Really...? Grinding isn't popular in the west? Look at the biggest trend in multiplayers. Repetitive encounters? MMOs. Don't forget Skyrim.

The continual streamlining of MMOs in the west, like WoW, shows that players prefer to go through the content faster. If you've played mmos like Lineage (or even newer Korean MMOs), the grind is much much harder, but the target market is accepting of that. The Old Republic also is about unique story content more than grinding, as far as I know (and I don't know much about TOR, honestly).

 

[Phonomezer]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

Just finding an excuse to shit on it would be a more appropriate observation.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

are people really getting this butt hurt because a dude on the internet doesn't think Japanese games are great? come on lads, its not like he's a holocaust denier or anything even close.

He's not a dude on the internet, he's a guy who was on a panel at GDC who said this to a Japanese developer in front of everybody.

I personally have not liked a lot of what Japan has produced this generation myself, but there are a million ways to say this in a constructive manner that doesn't make you look like King Douchelord of Assholeland.

And, as I have limited time and money to play games and plenty of options to choose from, I'm going to choose to give my money to people who haven't been dickheads in a public manner.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I stopped caring about Fez when I learned there wouldn't be a PC port like originally intended, and then Phil released that utterly absurd comfy couch explanation.

 

[rObit]

Won't be buying his game now. I can't say I enjoy Japanese games much either, but to take someone who is respectfully asking for your opinion on the state of the industry, and to respond in such a way is reprehensible. You are on a public platform in a professional position, take a moment to not be a lazy asshole and come up with a decently articulated answer. I will not support such laziness.

 

[Volcynika]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

I knew about it. I thought the whole rotating trailer thing was pretty boring. Though my main reason for not buying it is because I don't have the platform and he made some stupid statements about why it's not on PC. Which would make them funnier if it does come to PC someday.

 

[Durante]

Well you've won with your watertight logic, I guess. Japanese games don't appeal to me anymore so I don't buy Japanese games, but if I explain why I don't like them anymore I'm discredited because I don't buy them. Well-reasoned flawless victory

Are you still arguing that you are justified to speak about the overall state of Japanese games because you didn't like the 2 you played 5 years ago? (And actually enjoyed the only more recent one you tried?)

are people really getting this butt hurt because a dude on the internet doesn't think Japanese games are great? come on lads, its not like he's a holocaust denier or anything even close.

People aren't "butt hurt" because of his taste, people are calling him out for acting like an ass.

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

No, I already decided not to buy it when he made his previous stupid statement about PC gaming.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I thought it was ugly, it wasn't tense or even creative in the ways that RE4 was, the couple of boss fights I played were dumb, and the controls were frustrating. I thought it was a bad game!

It has the same controls as RE4! (with the right option control), seriously I understand your complaints (except controls) but it's hardly a terrible game.

I mean I can think of a few games that are basically broken and awfully designed, RE5 is not one of those games.

 

[Proposed Law]

People claiming not to buy Fez are most likely people who had no idea what it is until today.

How can you not know what it is? It's only been entered in every independent game showcase for like five years.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Sometimes I get the impression that when westerners say "western games are FRESH DAWG not like old moldy Japanese crap" they're mainly impressed by presentation. Western games have become synonymous with vast budgets and hollywood productions, decide to wow people with slick presentation and movie-like visual experience.

But if you tear games down to their component parts, and get into design, it's not so easy. The biggest western franchises, like Elder Scrolls, are still basically the same thing as Morrowind from 8 years ago; just with better graphics and as some hardcore players would say, even dumbed down. Stuff like Uncharted is basically a third person shooter / traversal game that happens to have amazing graphics and streaming presentation.

Western games also focus heavily these days on "PUSH A TO AWESOME". That is, making sure the player is floating in a smooth, edge-free environment that rewards every interaction with something awesome, so as not to scare away or bore what is actually a targeted audience of very casual 20-somethings. Guys who get pissed off if the game fights back and makes them lose.

It's a very dicey thing to try and get on a high horse and chortle about how western games are made of infinite awesome and Japanese games are poopysticks. Because there's a lot of trends in western games that are not good from a real game designer's perspective, and from the perspective of hardcore gamers. But western games are merely very, very good at appealing to the sensibilities of casual western gamers this generation.

But does being good at appealing to sensibilities of one audience mean they're objectively "better"? Is chocolate ice cream superior to strawberry just because it's marketed to people who like chocolate? That's subjective.

The truly innovative western games this gen, I would venture, are as rare as truly innovative Japanese games. They exist in equally rare quantities. The main difference between East and West the last five years is that western developers were better (and better funded) at Dat Gloss.

But is surface gloss really the only barometer of how good games are?