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Tennessee law allows creationism theory in classrooms

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I don't see the relationship between science and religion as a "vs." type deal. I like William Lane Craig's article on this issue. Here's a particularly relevant quote, I think:

Sometimes you hear slogans like “Science deals with facts and religion deals with faith.” But this is a gross caricature of both science and religion. As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective. By the same token, it is simply false that religion makes no factual claims about the world. The world religions make various and conflicting claims about the origin and nature of the universe and humanity, and they cannot all be true. Science and religion are thus like two circles which intersect or partially overlap. It is in the area of intersection that the dialogue takes place.

Here's the entire article: What is the relation between science and religion?

I also loved reading this book, God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? by John Lennox. It's a good read if you're more interested in a typical Christian perspective of this "conflict."
 

Red

Member
Then what did you mean by "Creationism as science fails at every step of the scientific process.". The take-home moral of the article is that i) there isn't such a thing as the scientific process, and that ii) even if you accept the essentially Popperian standards of the judge, creationism is still science (albeit it very bad science).
Then let's call it a scientific process or whatever. The article goes over numerous points where creationism or a young earth might be tested, and each of those points turns out the be in favor of the opposing view.

It seems to go so far as to concede that not every, let's say "real" scientific argument holds up individually, but still has to conclude that what can be tested on creationist terms does not further the creationist argument.

I don't know if I fully agree that creationism should be treated as a science (based on its prerequisite of a religious faith), but I can see how the argument can be made that it is. Despite that, the only thing it seems to succeed at is demonstrating how evolution is the stronger theory.
 
Simply put JGS, Sanky and their ilk REFUSE to acknowledge abiogenesis as a scientific theory because denying it allows the origin of life to remain shrouded in mystery. This leaves room for GOD to fill in the gap, the only place God apparently exists...in the gaps of human knowledge. Sorry guys, but that's how I see it.

We don't have to "refuse to acknowledge" it for it to be already shrouded in mystery. Ask your scientists. The difference is scientists use time and chance to fill in the gap.
 

marrec

Banned
They already have.

It doesn't matter about the details since they could never be proven. Atheist scentist have gotten frmly planted in their head that no matter what the cause of the orgin, they can gosh darn tell you for a fact that God didn't do it.

That's good enough for them.

Of course that's not good enough because it does not answer the fundamental question. They start from a position that assumes some made up magical being didn't do it and being testing based on that fact. You're hypothetical biologist who's putting his feet up, restful in the knowledge that God didn't create life DOESN'T EXIST. We've KNOWN that God didn't create life for as long as there has been rational thought...
 
Religious fundamentalists parents in Tennessee should "teach the controversy" by law to their kids about all those other religions around the world. Im sure they would be ok with that.

Irrational people are living in their own little fantasy world, aren't they?

(No offense to those who just follow their religion peacefully and are open to new ideas)
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Then let's call it a scientific process or whatever. The article goes over numerous points where creationism or a young earth might be tested, and each of those points turns out the be in favor of the opposing view.

Ahh, yeah. Then I agree with you completely.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
I don't see the relationship between science and religion as a "vs." type deal. I like William Lane Craig's article on this issue. Here's a particularly relevant quote, I think:



Here's the entire article: What is the relation between science and religion?

I also loved reading this book, God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? by John Lennox. It's a good read if you're more interested in a typical Christian perspective of this "conflict."

Science and religion have nothing to do with one another. These "philosophical" problems are man made constructs which people with an agenda construe as issues only a supernatural explanation can resolve.

We don't have to "refuse to acknowledge" it for it to be already shrouded in mystery. Ask your scientisrts. The difference is scientists use time and chance to fill in the gap.

A gross lack of understanding of science. The area of the origins of life is constantly being illuminated, more and more, brighter and brighter. You keep clinging to your misguided and opinion fueled by religious agenda..
 

marrec

Banned
We don't have to "refuse to acknowledge" it for it to be already shrouded in mystery. Ask your scientists. The difference is scientists use time and chance to fill in the gap.

What is this I don't even?

Scientists use known biological and chemical reactions to fill in the gap, time and chance are simply statistical data points.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
I don't see the relationship between science and religion as a "vs." type deal. I like William Lane Craig's article on this issue. Here's a particularly relevant quote, I think:



Here's the entire article: What is the relation between science and religion?

I also loved reading this book, God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? by John Lennox. It's a good read if you're more interested in a typical Christian perspective of this "conflict."

Would you care to eloborate on:
As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective
and even provide examples?

Have scientists ever actually come across a natural phenomenon and said "well, we can't explain this, so maybe this is god at work?"
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Science and religion have nothing to do with one another. These "philosophical" problems are man made constructs which people with an agenda construe as issues only a supernatural explanation can resolve.

I disagree with this. Science does involve 'philosophical' problems, but there's no reason to believe that they can't be resolved 'scientifically'. I think that's proscribing a far to limited view of what science involves (i.e. only those parts of science that are involved in laboratories).

One of the big turns in 20th century philosophy was the wholesale turn to naturalism, i.e. the turning to conclusions to philosophical problems that are continuous with science and scientific theories.

There is a lot of philosophy to be done in, say, fundamental physics and biology, but it can and should be done in line with what we know from our current best theories in those fields.

Have scientists ever actually come across a natural phenomenon and said "well, we can't explain this, so maybe this is god at work?"

Historically, certainly. Newton, for example, argued that God must intervene in the solar system because there was no other way he could explain how it could be in its present state (the mathematical tools he needed in order to show that the solar system was stable weren't created until after he died).

[edit]Herp hang on I think pre-established harmony was Leibniz.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Would you care to eloborate on:

and even provide examples?

Have scientists ever actually come across a natural phenomenon and said "well, we can't explain this, so maybe this is god at work?"

Well if you count creationists as scientists......
 
Science and religion have nothing to do with one another. These "philosophical" problems are man made constructs which people with an agenda construe as issues only a supernatural explanation can resolve.
The article goes into a lot more detail on this issue if you're interested in looking at it from another perspective. If you want to dismiss it as "man made constructs which people with an agenda construe as issues only a supernatural explanation can resolve" then that is obviously your prerogative, though.

neorej said:
Would you care to eloborate on:
Quote:
As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective
and even provide examples?

Have scientists ever actually come across a natural phenomenon and said "well, we can't explain this, so maybe this is god at work?"
Here's another excerpt from the same article:

Science has an insatiable thirst for explanation. But eventually, science reaches the limits of its explanatory ability. For example, in explaining why various things in the universe exist, science ultimately confronts the question of why the universe itself exists. Notice that this need not be a question about the temporal origin of the universe. Even if spacetime is beginningless and endless, we may still ask why spacetime exists. Physicist David Park reflects, “As to why there is spacetime, that appears to be a perfectly good scientific question, but nobody knows how to answer it.”
 

Red

Member
Would you care to eloborate on:

and even provide examples?

Have scientists ever actually come across a natural phenomenon and said "well, we can't explain this, so maybe this is god at work?"
Historically? Yes. I'm sure there are a few nuts out there who still feel the same way.

Newton was attacked during his time for creating a model of a godless universe, and he repeatedly tried to explain how god could still exist, how he was the force which kept everything in the order it was in and corrected small fluctuations in things like the orbits of planets.

One of the biggest dangers of religion I would say is that belief that God is at the heart of it all. It's scary to think the real explanation could be passed up because we weren't looking in that space reserved for God.
 

marrec

Banned
I disagree with this. Science does involve 'philosophical' problems, but there's no reason to believe that they can't be resolved 'scientifically'. I think that's proscribing a far to limited view of what science involves (i.e. only those parts of science that are involved in laboratories).

One of the big turns in 20th century philosophy was the wholesale turn to naturalism, i.e. the turning to conclusions to philosophical problems that are continuous with science and scientific theories.

There is a lot of philosophy to be done in, say, fundamental physics and biology, but it can and should be done in line with what we know from our current best theories in those fields.

I would agree heartily. Philosophical questions can lead to interesting scientific answers, but they are not one in the same and Philosophy should have no bearing on the direction that Science takes. (Barring ethical questions.)

It would really suck to be a science teacher in Tennessee right now. :/

I saw your name and was getting prepared to argue with you.

I need to stay out of the Martin thread. :-/
 
What is this I don't even?

Scientists use known biological and chemical reactions to fill in the gap, time and chance are simply statistical data points.

Experiments time and time again show that known biological and chemical reactions DO NOT lead to anything remotely close to life. In fact, many biological and chemical reactions naturally decompose any advances made. To address this, we have time and chance.

As i walk west into the Ocean from California, I keep drowning. HOWEVER, I'm in China now, so it must have happened given enought time.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Experiments time and time again show that known biological and chemical reactions DO NOT lead to anything remotely close to life. In fact, many biological and chemical reactions naturally decompose any advances made. To address this, we have time and chance.

As i walk west into the Ocean from California, I keep drowning. HOWEVER, I'm in China now, so it must have happened with enought time.

Scientists, you have 5 years to create an experiment that works, or you MUST GIVE UP.

Oh and by the way stop wasting money on detecting gravity waves, you've already conducted enough failed experiements.

Oh and dark matter.

Oh and stop trying to create fusion, why are there two massive projects going on as we speak.

Oh and you haven't found the higgs boson yet, STOP NOW PLEASE.
 

Zzoram

Member
Historically? Yes. I'm sure there are a few nuts out there who still feel the same way.

Newton was attacked during his time for creating a model of a godless universe, and he repeatedly tried to explain how god could still exist, how he was the force which kept everything in the order it was in and corrected small fluctuations in things like the orbits of planets.

One of the biggest dangers of religion I would say is that belief that God is at the heart of it all. It's scary to think the real explanation could be passed up because we weren't looking in that space reserved for God.

No, the biggest danger in religion is that it has all the answers. If you have all the answers, you stop asking questions. That's why the Middle East collapsed scientifically once the Islamic fundamentalists took political power and shifted society away from inquiry.
 

marrec

Banned
Experiments time and time again show that known biological and chemical reactions DO NOT lead to anything remotely close to life. In fact, many biological and chemical reactions naturally decompose any advances made. To address this, we have time and chance.

As i walk west into the Ocean from California, I keep drowning. HOWEVER, I'm in China now, so it must have happened given enought time.

Every one of your posts proves time and time again that you have no clue how Science gets done.

:(
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I would agree heartily. Philosophical questions can lead to interesting scientific answers, but they are not one in the same and Philosophy should have no bearing on the direction that Science takes. (Barring ethical questions.)

I disagree with this, though. Philosophy (of science) has been very important and influential in the development of science, particularly in the early 20th century with relativistic physics and quantum mechanics. Another example would be the influence of philosophy on the development of linguistics post-behaviourism.

I think it's virtually impossible to decouple philosophy and science, and I think it damages both to pretend that they are unrelated or have nothing worth saying about one-another.
 

Violet_0

Banned
devil.gif
 

marrec

Banned
I disagree with this, though. Philosophy (of science) has been very important and influential in the development of science, particularly in the early 20th century with relativistic physics and quantum mechanics. Another example would be the influence of philosophy on the development of linguistics post-behaviourism.

I think it's virtually impossible to decouple philosophy and science, and I think it damages both to pretend that they are unrelated or have nothing worth saying about one-another.

I think they should exist independent of each other however. Philosophy shouldn't be rooted in science and science should not be tied down to Philosophy. They influence each other but need to be completely separate lines of reasoning. As soon as we have Science and Philosophy on the same footing then you open the door to Philosophy being TAUGHT as Science, which it never should.

Even Formal Logic isn't Science, but simply a way of reasoning.
 

genjiZERO

Member
Experiments time and time again show that known biological and chemical reactions DO NOT lead to anything remotely close to life. In fact, many biological and chemical reactions naturally decompose any advances made. To address this, we have time and chance.

As i walk west into the Ocean from California, I keep drowning. HOWEVER, I'm in China now, so it must have happened given enought time.

In reality "life" isn't even a scientific question because life is undefinable. Also I'm not sure what you mean by "time" and "chance". Time is measurement represented by the SI unit 'seconds'. Chance is another word for the statistical likelihood that an even has, does or will occur. Chance can be applied to any measurement: "there is a chance that this catfish will be 10,000 g".

Marrec said:
I think they should exist independent of each other however. Philosophy shouldn't be rooted in science and science should not be tied down to Philosophy. They influence each other but need to be completely separate lines of reasoning.

You and I are in full agreement here. They are simply different disciplines. It would also be irresponsible for a scientist to root his thought in philosophy.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
But essentially if you look at a bunch of criteria for what constitutes a scientific theory--irrespective of whether those criteria are even real criteria for what constitutes science--you'd have to be forced to conclude that creation science is science, it's just really bad science.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/kal698/science at the bar.pdf

I'd broadly identify with Laudan's position.

Well, notwithstanding that this article is discussing "scientific knowledge", not "theory", the definition it uses:

"(I) It is guided by natural law; (2) it has to be explanatory by reference to natural law; (3) it is testable against the empirical world; (4) its conclusions are tentative, i.e., are not necessarily the final word; and (5) it is falsifiable."

I accept this definition for the purpose of this discussion. We don't have a definitional problem.

", the creationists say that the earth is of very recent origin (say 6,000 to 20,000 years old); they argue that most of the geological features of the earth's surface are diluvial in character (i.e., products of the postulated Noachian deluge); they are committed to a large number of factual historical claims with which the Old Testament is replete; they assert the limited variability of species." In brief, these claims are testable, they have been tested, and they have failed those tests

Creationists do not agree that they have been tested or that they have failed those tests. For example, if we take radioactive decay dating as a testing apparatus for the first claim in the abridged quote. Some YECs argue that radioactive decay dating simply isn't valid. Others argue a "trickster god" type hypothesis where it is valid, but the apparently falsified claims are true regardless.

I would agree that if a hypothetical Creationist accepted all of our building blocks (that protons and neutrons and electrons exist, the elements exist, that things behave in certain ways, that radioactive decay occurs, that we can mathematically calculate rates of radioactive decay, etc) but simply disagreed on the age of the earth, we would test the age of the earth using those building blocs, their claim would be falsified, and thus it would be bad science.

The problem is that in reality, any such Creationist would have disagreed with building blocks heading back further and further. For example, a YEC might yield everything about radioactive decay but then argue that some universal constant has changed in some unknown and unspecified way and so while all current objects have apparent ages, some past event invalidates any potential evidence that could falsify their statements.

So I don't agree that Creationism, as proposed to be taught, is bad science. It is not science. Creationism could easily be bad science.

. Over and over again, he finds Creationism and its advocates "unscientific" because they have "refuse[d] to change it regardless of the evidence developed during the course of their investigation." In point of fact, the charge is mistaken

The criticism here is correct. Creationism has materially changed through the years.

But he misunderstands the way in which things change. While proponents of conventional science are willing and able to trace the intellectual forebears of their theories--that is to say, they can state a historical hypothesis, show which predictive power it had, show what it was not able to explain, show which adaptations were made to it to strengthen it, etc; we can easily trace from the beginnings of heliocentrism to our currently cosmological understandings; we can easily trace from Newtonian mechanics to relativistic mechanics--no such process seems to occur in Creationism as proposed. Scientific theories start small and expand as required to explain situations with increasingly more nuance. Those that cannot adapt are thrown out wholesale (for example pre-germ theories of disease, lamarckian evolution, etc). It's by definition that scientific theories start small; parsimony dictates that we find the smallest possible explanation, and expand it only as we need to to gain predictive power or explanatory scope.

Creationism starts huge ("All can be explained by the Creator") and shrinks every time a position is held to be untenable. This is characterized by skeptics as the "God of the Gaps" argument. It doesn't take a genius to show how such an argument is asymptotic. There will be no situation where the final gap can be closed. There's no planck constant for minimum creation explanation.

I agree with his criticism that both science and creation change over fairly long periods of time, that individuals can be dogmatic, and that there's a process of socio-cultural change mediating scientific research. I don't have a strong background in philosophy of science so if I'm abusing jargon the way creationists abuse "theory", please correct me gently.

Even worse, the ad hominem charge of dogmatism against Creationism egregiously confuses doctrines with the proponents of those doctrines. Since no law mandates that creationists should be invited into the classroom, it is quite irrelevant whether they themselves are close-minded. The Arkansas statute proposed that Creationism be taught, not that creationists should teach it. What counts is the epistemic status of Creationism, not the cognitive idiosyncrasies of the creationists.

I do not agree with this. In every case that Creationism laws or school board rulings have been tested, there were specific creationists with specific texts. Creationism is not an agent in American politics, it is a front made of very specific people. More broadly, the entire process of resolving policy disputes in America is driven by cognitive idiosyncrasies. Laws do not collapse on their own accord, they are challenged by people with standing in jurisdictions with standing to hear the cases or overturned by specific courts. Disenfranchised groups do not obtain rights out of nowhere, they specifically lobby for their case and their case is used as a concrete example of an theoretical question.

To give you a specific example, if a college student proclaimed that he had a religious duty to do something that was prohibited by law, before a balancing test was applied to the action itself, the authenticity of his religious expression would be determined. In the same way, I cannot declare myself to be a tax exempt religion. Courts have a modulation process to determine this.

In all of these cases, specific creationist groups are representing a specific idiosyncratic creationism in court. Making their case legally relies on their idiosyncracies. Imagine the alternative: A court rules that a "Scientific Creationism" can be taught in theory, but that certain idiosyncratic ways of defining or teaching it was forbidden. This ruling is meaningless, since each implementation would be tested until there was some sort of clear test defined, as above or elsewhere.

So defending the general from an attack on the specific doesn't go anywhere as far as I'm concerned.


I remain unconvinced; the type of creationism proposed to be taught in American schools by these people is not merely bad science, it's not science. I think the article's best case scenario would be that "There exists a definition of creationism, irrespective of whether or not it has any actual practitioners, that meets a definition of scientific. However it is bad science."
 
This statement implies that "some atheists" were previously presented with "facts", and refused to change their "beliefs". I'll do you the favour of letting your strawman atheist fly, but you'll have to substantiate which belief ought to have changed in the face of which fact.

I sure hope JGS responds to this.
 

Dunk#7

Member
No, the biggest danger in religion is that it has all the answers. If you have all the answers, you stop asking questions. That's why the Middle East collapsed scientifically once the Islamic fundamentalists took political power and shifted society away from inquiry.

This is a ridiculous way to look at the influence of religion.

Science and Christianity co-exist in my life quite nicely. One's belief in creationism and the topics discussed in the Bible do not deter that person from seeking knowledge. We all still have to learn as much as we can about the world around us and how to make better use of what we are given.

To me science is the study of all that God created and making better use of it. My belief that God created the universe does not stop me from inquiring about how everything around me works.
 

marrec

Banned
I sure hope JGS responds to this.

It seems JGS' problem with Science is that it discounts God without being able to prove he doesn't exist.

So I'm going to play JGS real quick:

"The facts are that Biologists cannot prove the God didn't make Life and it's completely unscientific that they don't even want to try! So they need to change their belief that God doesn't exist based on the fact that they can't prove that God doesn't exist!"
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I think they should exist independent of each other however. Philosophy shouldn't be rooted in science and science should not be tied down to Philosophy. They influence each other but need to be completely separate lines of reasoning. As soon as we have Science and Philosophy on the same footing then you open the door to Philosophy being TAUGHT as Science, which it never should.

Even Formal Logic isn't Science, but simply a way of reasoning.

Philosophy is already taught as science, in a sense, because philosophy is pervasive throughout science. All major scientific advances have involved philosophical reasoning, from Galileo to Newton to Einstein to Darwin and beyond. All of these scientists heavily involved philosophy in their work.

Of course, it is not the philosophy of Sartre and Camus and Derrida, it's the philosophy of Leibniz and Mach and Einstein. But it is still philosophical. It still involves thinking about scientific ideas and practises in a way prior to experimentation and testing.

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that part of every schoolchild's physics education should be reading Mach. But I think that if we try and tell people that philosophy and science are separate and should not influence one another is damaging to philosophy and more importantly damaging to science.

[edit]Stump: will reply later, heading out for coffee right now.
 

genjiZERO

Member
As a side comment: I briefly did a Teach America type thing in a very rural public highschool a few years back. I got a mini-class of students each period to teach biology to. Christianity was very prevalent in this school. Many teacher displayed posters with scripture quotes. Even the biology teacher did this.... and kept a Bible and cross on her desk. However, she told me she was afraid of Creationists and was completely opposed to teaching Creationism in a biology class. She said religion was a personal matter, and that biology was a science rooted in evidence. I hope that Tennessee highschool teachers will feel the same way.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
This is a ridiculous way to look at the influence of religion.

Science and Christianity co-exist in my life quite nicely. One's belief in creationism and the topics discussed in the Bible do not deter that person from seeking knowledge. We all still have to learn as much as we can about the world around us and how to make better use of what we are given.

To me science is the study of all that God created and making better use of it. My belief that God created the universe does not stop me from inquiring about how everything around me works.

That's how modern science started...as an attempt to understand god's creation.

Geology basically evolved from attempting to observe evidence of the biblical flood. Now how many scientists believe in a great flood?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Stumpokapow said:
But he misunderstands the way in which things change. While proponents of conventional science are willing and able to trace the intellectual forebears of their theories--that is to say, they can state a historical hypothesis, show which predictive power it had, show what it was not able to explain, show which adaptations were made to it to strengthen it, etc; we can easily trace from the beginnings of heliocentrism to our currently cosmological understandings; we can easily trace from Newtonian mechanics to relativistic mechanics--no such process seems to occur in Creationism as proposed. Scientific theories start small and expand as required to explain situations with increasingly more nuance. Those that cannot adapt are thrown out wholesale (for example pre-germ theories of disease, lamarckian evolution, etc). It's by definition that scientific theories start small; parsimony dictates that we find the smallest possible explanation, and expand it only as we need to to gain predictive power or explanatory scope.

Creationism starts huge ("All can be explained by the Creator") and shrinks every time a position is held to be untenable. This is characterized by skeptics as the "God of the Gaps" argument. It doesn't take a genius to show how such an argument is asymptotic. There will be no situation where the final gap can be closed. There's no planck constant for minimum creation explanation.
This is the best explanation of the problem that I've seen

EDIT: I find myself actually agreeing with Dunk on this one: the presence of religious belief is not intrinsically hostile to science, and a lot of the best science in history was conducted in highly religious environments. The problem is a cultural shift in the way religion and science are perceived, from "working to comprehend God's creation" to "science is trying to say God doesn't exist by disproving things in the Bible"
 

marrec

Banned
Philosophy is already taught as science, in a sense, because philosophy is pervasive throughout science. All major scientific advances have involved philosophical reasoning, from Galileo to Newton to Einstein to Darwin and beyond. All of these scientists heavily involved philosophy in their work.

Of course, it is not the philosophy of Sartre and Camus and Derrida, it's the philosophy of Leibniz and Mach and Einstein. But it is still philosophical. It still involves thinking about scientific ideas and practises in a way prior to experimentation and testing.

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that part of every schoolchild's physics education should be reading Mach. But I think that if we try and tell people that philosophy and science are separate and should not influence one another is damaging to philosophy and more importantly damaging to science.

I think we need to make a distinction between the 'Process of Science' and the 'Philosophy of Science'. Prognosticating on what the Process of Science teaches us is the Philosophy of Science but it does not give us anymore Scientific knowledge than we had before. It's the Process of Science that moves us forward in knowledge.

We need to keep the two separate so as not to muddy the waters of the pure Process of Science.
 
Scientists, you have 5 years to create an experiment that works, or you MUST GIVE UP.

Oh and by the way stop wasting money on detecting gravity waves, you've already conducted enough failed experiements.

Oh and dark matter.

Oh and stop trying to create fusion, why are there two massive projects going on as we speak.

Oh and you haven't found the higgs boson yet, STOP NOW PLEASE.

I'm all for these. They are attempts to explain and understand repeatable processes that we see in nature. Abiogenesis has become an attempt to explain and understand how nature would go AGAINST repeatable processes that we see in nature, all in one big stroke of luck. It's fun to think about I guess.

I think we need to make a distinction between the 'Process of Science' and the 'Philosophy of Science'. Prognosticating on what the Process of Science teaches us is the Philosophy of Science but it does not give us anymore Scientific knowledge than we had before. It's the Process of Science that moves us forward in knowledge.

It can be argued that a scientific philosophy of design and purpose in nature, of trying to understand the why of things, is more conducive to progress than through some unknown selective pressure, and some unknown sequence of genetic events, species A became species B. The view of vestigial remains in DNA has greatly limited our understanding of DNA, whereas more and more discoveries are being made as to the purpose of such DNA sequences.

Just sayin'
 

genjiZERO

Member
Philosophy is already taught as science, in a sense, because philosophy is pervasive throughout science. All major scientific advances have involved philosophical reasoning, from Galileo to Newton to Einstein to Darwin and beyond. All of these scientists heavily involved philosophy in their work.

Of course, it is not the philosophy of Sartre and Camus and Derrida, it's the philosophy of Leibniz and Mach and Einstein. But it is still philosophical. It still involves thinking about scientific ideas and practises in a way prior to experimentation and testing.

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that part of every schoolchild's physics education should be reading Mach. But I think that if we try and tell people that philosophy and science are separate and should not influence one another is damaging to philosophy and more importantly damaging to science.

[edit]Stump: will reply later, heading out for coffee right now.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a philosophy major who has only had Bio 101 and has never been in a lab. Science is very specific. It requires hypotheses that can be falsified upon experimentation. There is no deduction. It it not even technically induction because it never makes statements of fact. Science does not exist without evidence. Also, some of those people you mentioned aren't even scientists. Genuine scientific fields didn't exist at the time of Galileo - he's more appropriately an astronomer or a mathematician. Newton was clearly a mathematician. Darwin was a naturalist whose hypothesis lead to the development of the science of Biology. Philosophy certainly influences the way scientists think about Reality and Life in a more global sense, and science certainly helps philosophers form more realistic premises, but because their methods and goals are different they are different subjects and should be treated as such.

marrec said:
I think we need to make a distinction between the 'Process of Science' and the 'Philosophy of Science'. Prognosticating on what the Process of Science teaches us is the Philosophy of Science but it does not give us anymore Scientific knowledge than we had before. It's the Process of Science that moves us forward in knowledge.

We need to keep the two separate so as not to muddy the waters of the pure Process of Science

Exactly. Science and the Philosophy of Science are totally different things.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
I'm all for these. They are attempts to explain and understand repeatable processes that we see in nature. Abiogenesis has become an attempt to explain and understand how nature would go AGAINST repeatable processes that we see in nature, all in one big stroke of luck. It's fun to think about I guess.

Your lack of understanding is fun to think about.
 

marrec

Banned
I'm all for these. They are attempts to explain and understand repeatable processes that we see in nature. Abiogenesis has become an attempt to explain and understand how nature would go AGAINST repeatable processes that we see in nature, all in one big stroke of luck. It's fun to think about I guess.

Sanky, there is no other viable solution to the origin of life. Just because the Scientific process hasn't provided you with the standard of evidence that would change your mind, doesn't mean that you should put God in that gap.

I never understood the God of Gaps as an honest argument, it HAS to be disingenuous right?
 

ZAK

Member
Sometimes you hear slogans like “Science deals with facts and religion deals with faith.” But this is a gross caricature of both science and religion. As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective. By the same token, it is simply false that religion makes no factual claims about the world. The world religions make various and conflicting claims about the origin and nature of the universe and humanity, and they cannot all be true. Science and religion are thus like two circles which intersect or partially overlap. It is in the area of intersection that the dialogue takes place.
I don't see how a theological perspective is "illuminating." I don't see it as much better than a random guess. If you can't currently get a scientific answer to your question, but you still want to know badly enough, you might lower your standards enough to accept a mere guess. That's not illumination, it's comfort.

Yes, I read everything at the link. There are some very silly things, and some more interesting points. The most interesting parts are about "hard questions for science," such as the apparent fine-tunedness of the universe. Some theologically inclined people like to say here, "God can explain that" (is there anything you can't explain using God?), though I don't see that as an especially good answer. Vague ideas come to mind that are no worse, such as an "evolution of universes," in which universes which manage to form stars (say) exert an influence backward in time on their own "parameters," so that star-forming universes are encouraged. This is a convoluted explanation with holes in it, sure, but how is it a worse answer than, "God?" It takes many more words to write out, but the unobserved things it claims must exist are no more complex. The point is, "God did it" is just a random guess out of a large set of possible crappy-sounding explanations for questions we don't know how to answer yet. I don't see how having a "privileged guess" is at all helpful. If anything, it seems harmful, as it distracts from all the other guesses, though they have no worse odds of actually being correct.
 

Dunk#7

Member
EDIT: I find myself actually agreeing with Dunk on this one: the presence of religious belief is not intrinsically hostile to science, and a lot of the best science in history was conducted in highly religious environments. The problem is a cultural shift in the way religion and science are perceived, from "working to comprehend God's creation" to "science is trying to say God doesn't exist by disproving things in the Bible"

I think that is one of the major issues we need to address. Why did everybody start pitting religion and science against each other?

The entire fact that people confuse the terms evolution and abiogenesis and use that confusion to pit evolution against creationism is ridiculous to me. Creationism and evolution can co-exist, but people treat them as opposites.

Science is not a respecter of anything. It is simply out to test and find various hypothesis as best it can and arrive at a conclusion based on it's findings. How can something that is simply searching for concrete answers be biased towards anything else?
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Sanky, there is no other viable solution to the origin of life. Just because the Scientific process hasn't provided you with the standard of evidence that would change your mind, doesn't mean that you should put God in that gap.

I never understood the God of Gaps as an honest argument, it HAS to be disingenuous right?

Anything you say he will flip around

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Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
This is a ridiculous way to look at the influence of religion.

Science and Christianity co-exist in my life quite nicely. One's belief in creationism and the topics discussed in the Bible do not deter that person from seeking knowledge. We all still have to learn as much as we can about the world around us and how to make better use of what we are given.

To me science is the study of all that God created and making better use of it. My belief that God created the universe does not stop me from inquiring about how everything around me works.
You seem to be relatively open-minded so I'm going to make the rare genuine, heartfelt attempt to change your mind.

These sentiments are beautiful and worthy of consideration by anyone:
Science and Christianity co-exist in my life quite nicely
One's belief in the topics discussed in the Bible do not deter that person from seeking knowledge
My belief that God created the universe does not stop me from inquiring about how everything around me works

But this is a problem:
One's belief in creationism does not deter that person from seeking knowledge.
To me science is the study of all that God created and making better use of it.
First, creationism isn't in the bible. It's new. It's new as all get out, in fact. It's earliest descriptions are from the 1840s or so; the term itself was first used in 1927. In America. As a religious belief it specifically denies that evolution as we understand it takes place and replaces many of the natural explanations for the diversity of life with religious tenets. There is nothing inherently wrong with this on a level of personal belief, but it cannot be called "science" in- ahem- good faith. It does deter one from seeking knowledge because, for example, seeking the knowledge of how whales became sea animals would yield answers directly incompatible with the beliefs put forth by creationism.

The second line I quoted puts me in the frameset that perhaps you accept "Theistic evolution" or "evolutionary creation"- if that's the case and I apologize as this is a purely semantic argument and I have nothing to convince you of. But at its most basic value, science is the study of the natural world by means of testable hypotheses and observation. It cannot concern itself with any supernatural agents or causes because such entities are by definition untestable and unobservable, and thus simply not the purview of science.

edit:
Creationism and evolution can co-exist, but people treat them as opposites.
Unfortunately, without you being more specific, this is misguided, at best. If you are using creationism as a broad umbrella to include concepts like theistic evolution, then perhaps a coexistence of the type you imply is possible. But otherwise they can only coexist in the sense that geocentric and heliocentric theories of celestial motion can coexist; with one clearly and demonstrably correct and the other discredited. They may not be opposites, but creationism absolutely denies the possibly of evolution.
 
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