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[Mudkips]

So he's not an atheist because he doesn't want to be associated with 'active' atheists? That's all I get from the video. For all intents and purposes, he's an atheist - but I can respect his desire to not be labelled as one (or as anything).



This was going to be my first reply but the only time he really adds an attribute to 'atheists' is when he mentions that the atheists HE knows are a particular way, not really encompassing the entire group. That being said, he sort of self-dodged the 'aren't atheists and agnostic the same thing/overlapping?' - all he said in response was "No they're not, and that's because I know some annoying atheists and I am not like that".

No, it's because atheism and agnosticism do not overlap.

Incorrect, an Atheist does not believe in a God. They do not ACTIVELY believe that there is no gods unless they are Gnostic Atheists.

Hahaha, holy shit no.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god.
Theism is the belief in one or more gods.
Agnosticism is the lack of belief either way.
Simple. Anyone claiming a mix is simple hedging.

 

[Tawpgun]

What I been telling people for years.

Always hated the word Atheist AND Agnostic. Never liked being labeled like that.

It's no secret I lean to the left of the political spectrum, but I hate when people call me liberal or democrat.

 

[GrizzNKev]

I love his view.

Seriously atheists are more annoying than religious people. Neither ideology can be proven so you can both just shut the fuck up. I hate the whole Theist vs Atheist debates that occur. We shouldn't even bother with it.

Do you believe in god? Careful with your answer, you might just find yourself more annoying than religious people.

No, it's because atheism and agnosticism do not overlap.

In fact they're hardly related at all, because agnosticism can describe any number of things.

Hahaha, holy shit no.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god.
Theism is the belief in one or more gods.
Agnosticism is the lack of belief either way.
Simple. Anyone claiming a mix is simple hedging.

They flow into the thread and continue to support me. The misinformed, they run wild and free. ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF. Some online definitions may not be entirely correct. There is no group called agnostics. lolololol I'm laughing and crying


Mudkips
Failed Biology and English
(Today, 10:35 PM)

 

[HK-47]

I love his view.

Seriously atheists are more annoying than religious people. Neither ideology can be proven so you can both just shut the fuck up. I hate the whole Theist vs Atheist debates that occur. We shouldn't even bother with it.

You know what I find even more annoying? This type of argument that rejects discourse and discussion. Its the intellectual equivalent of "cant we all just be friends." Its insipid.

 

[BocoDragon]

I find the people who are coming in here and essentially saying "fuck the debate, I'm somehow smarter than you" pretty mind numbing.

Whether you are theist, atheist or agnostic, by whatever definition, you may find value in the debate over God's existence. It's the very makeup of our reality. Why wouldn't it be healthy and interesting to investigate and debate?

If you don't want to have the debate, that's fine. You can stay home. But if you think you're oh so smarter for it? Sorry son. You ain't.

 

[Raistlin]

Seriously atheists are more annoying than religious people.

Why? How?

 

[KHarvey16]

No, it's because atheism and agnosticism do not overlap.



Hahaha, holy shit no.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god.
Theism is the belief in one or more gods.
Agnosticism is the lack of belief either way.
Simple. Anyone claiming a mix is simple hedging.

Theism is a belief in god. A-theism is being without a belief in god. Gnosticism refers to knowledge. An agnostic theist does not claim to know there is a god, but believes there is one, otherwise known as having faith. Agnosticism and atheism describe completely different things.

 

[VillageNinja]

Atheism is like breast feeding in public, I can't watch it while it's happening. Just drink my coffee as quickly as possible, pay the bill, and get the hell out of there.

 

[Zebra]

I love his view.

Seriously atheists are more annoying than religious people. Neither ideology can be proven so you can both just shut the fuck up. I hate the whole Theist vs Atheist debates that occur. We shouldn't even bother with it.

It's not fair to generalize.

Also, I think it's important to debate over the issues that guide people's decisions in life because they tend to influence others.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

It seems to me as though some of the more defensive atheists instinctively realize that having a definite position on the God question makes them as stuck in binary way of thinking as a theist, even if they're loathe to admit it on any sort of intellectual level. I find it sort of obnoxious when self avowed atheists try to drag agnostics along with them into their particular brand of disbelief. Atheism is a negative assertion and agnosticism is the absence of an assertion. It's pretty cut and dry imo. Perhaps what some people are suggesting is true, which is that some atheists don't realize when they've sort of naturally progressed into an agnostic view on the issue.

 

[BocoDragon]

Atheism is like breast feeding in public, I can't watch it while it's happening. Just drink my coffee as quickly as possible, pay the bill, and get the hell out of there.

We get it already. You're a giant unintellectual hater.

 

[KHarvey16]

It seems to me as though some of the more defensive atheists instinctively realize that having a definite position on the God question makes them as stuck in binary way of thinking as a theist, even if they're loathe to admit it on any sort of intellectual level. I find it sort of obnoxious when self avowed atheists try to drag agnostics along with them into their particular brand of disbelief. Atheism is a negative assertion and agnosticism is the lack of assertion. It's pretty cut and dry imo. Perhaps what some people are suggesting is true, which is that some atheists don't realize when they've sort of naturally progressed into an agnostic view on the issue.

It isn't a negative assertion. How can you call people defensive in a derisive way when you make a claim about them that is false and then they correct you?

 

[GrizzNKev]

It seems to me as though some of the more defensive atheists instinctively realize that having a definite position on the God question makes them as stuck in binary way of thinking as a theist, even if they're loathe to admit it on any sort of intellectual level. I find it sort of obnoxious when self avowed atheists try to drag agnostics along with them into their particular brand of disbelief. Atheism is a negative assertion and agnosticism is the absence of an assertion. It's pretty cut and dry imo. Perhaps what some people are suggesting is true, which is that some atheists don't realize when they've sort of naturally progressed into an agnostic view on the issue.

Oh goodness, here we go again.

I am an atheist and I do not believe in god. I do not think I can disprove nor prove the existence of a god.

Look at me, I'm out of control! I said both and they didn't conflict with each other! Surely I am insane.

 

[Fusebox]

Atheism is like breast feeding in public, I can't watch it while it's happening. Just drink my coffee as quickly as possible, pay the bill, and get the hell out of there.

Your loss. Breast-feeding is awesome and so is not having your life tied up to some dusty old belief system.

 

[Mumei]

It isn't a negative assertion. How can you call people defensive in a derisive way when you make a claim about them that is false and then they correct you?

It's unfortunate that people who do that refuse to see what they are doing for what it is.

 

[Zebra]

Atheism is a negative assertion and agnosticism is the absence of an assertion. It's pretty cut and dry imo. Perhaps what some people are suggesting is true, which is that some atheists don't realize when they've sort of naturally progressed into an agnostic view on the issue.

They are not mutually exclusive positions.

Also, atheism is not necessarily negative assertion. It can be a null/empty position.

I do not believe in a god. I cannot prove there is no god, nor do I believe there is no god--I simply do not believe in god. Still atheism.

 

[HK-47]

It's unfortunate that people who do that refuse to see what they are doing for what it is.

We are so aggressive! Look out, we might go all militant atheist on you, whatever that is.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

It isn't a negative assertion. How can you call people defensive in a derisive way when you make a claim about them that is false and then they correct you?

What makes you so uncomfortable with atheism as a negative assertion?

 

[Hartt951]

Why? How?

Because they complain about how religious people shove their views down people's throats and then go shove their views down people's throats.

They emulate religious people to the T. They gather in groups of like-minded individuals and then talk about how right they are and how awesome it is that they're atheists. It's exactly like a bible study. A bunch of Christians gathered together talking about how awesome they are that they are Christian.

I feel like they are on a crusade to convert everyone from Theism to being Atheist and it's the exact same thing they bitch about religious people for. It's just hypocritical and annoying. Your views are your views, keep them to yourself.

EDIT: And yes I understand it is a niche group I am talking about. I do not believe everyone that does not believe in a God is like the people I am describing by my post.

 

[onadesertedisland]

Atheism is a lack of belief in god or gods. It has no stance in the certainty of this position. It simply means that there is no belief. Period.

Do you believe in Zeus? If not, you are atheistic towards Zeus. In the mainstream, an atheist stance usually refers to the Abrahamic god/s.

I do not believe in any god or gods, hence I am without belief in a god, thus Atheist.

I do not place any value in speculation on the existence (agnosticism) of gods much as I do not place any value in debating unicorns, tooth fairy, boogey man etc.

I am simply without belief. What value is there to debating the possibility of existence of things that are without evidence?

 

[HK-47]

What makes you so uncomfortable with atheism as a negative assertion?

Because for many it isnt? Its a null assertion. So they would like to correct your erroneous statement.

 

[impirius]

No, I just think they are in denial about it. It's tragically ironic when someone's religion is "anti-religion".

I just don't see the correlation between being a gnostic atheist (versus an agnostic atheist) and one's feelings toward religion. Gnosticism is concerned with what is knowable, not the severity of your feelings towards those who disagree. (I think the labels of "strong" and "weak" serve only to muddle the issue in this case; they imply that one is strident or meek.)

With regard to the fervent atheists you mention: While Einstein is hardly the first person to turn to for a cogent view of theism and atheism, he did poetically describe some atheists as being "like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle." I spent over a decade as an Evangelical Christian, and I felt that weight for a time after I stopped believing. It's difficult for me to begrudge others in a similar situation who are seeking catharsis by, say, posting on the Internet.

 

[GrizzNKev]

What makes you so uncomfortable with atheism as a negative assertion?

Because it isn't. Read my previous post for potential enlightenment.

 

[KHarvey16]

What makes you so uncomfortable with atheism as a negative assertion?

It doesn't make me uncomfortable. You're just wrong.

 

[HK-47]

I think someone can be anti religious and agnostic and atheistic at the same time and be quite reasonable about it. Especially since there is so much inconsistency in established god concepts. This doesnt prove that there isnt a god or gods.

 

[Zebra]

Because they complain about how religious people shove their views down people's throats and then go shove their views down people's throats.

They emulate religious people to the T. They gather in groups of like-minded individuals and then talk about how right they are and how awesome it is that they're atheists. It's exactly like a bible study. A bunch of Christians gathered together talking about how awesome they are that they are Christian.

I feel like they are on a crusade to convert everyone from Theism to being Atheist and it's the exact same thing they bitch about religious people for. It's just hypocritical and annoying. Your views are your views, keep them to yourself.

I do none of the above. Please refine your perception of atheists.

 

[Mudkips]

You know what I find even more annoying? This type of argument that rejects discourse and discussion. Its the intellectual equivalent of "cant we all just be friends." Its insipid.

Atheism and theists have exactly the same amount of evidence for what they believe in.
None.

There can be no meaning discourse or discussion on the subject when both sides are trying to convince the other that they are right. The very nature of the discussion is beyond reason as one side believes that anything is possible because of a supernatural being beyond our capacity to perceive, and the other side believes that nothing is possible except what we see and know.

It's a pissing match every single time.

 

[Hartt951]

I do none of the above. Please refine your perception of atheists.

Check my edit. Yes I understand that is an over-generalization of atheists.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Because they complain about how religious people shove their views down people's throats and then go shove their views down people's throats.

They emulate religious people to the T. They gather in groups of like-minded individuals and then talk about how right they are and how awesome it is that they're atheists. It's exactly like a bible study. A bunch of Christians gathered together talking about how awesome they are that they are Christian.

I feel like they are on a crusade to convert everyone from Theism to being Atheist and it's the exact same thing they bitch about religious people for. It's just hypocritical and annoying. Your views are your views, keep them to yourself.

EDIT: And yes I understand it is a niche group I am talking about. I do not believe everyone that does not believe in a God is like the people I am describing by my post.

Then how about you stop saying "atheists" and start saying "some atheists" instead? I think that would be nice.

Atheism and theists have exactly the same amount of evidence for what they believe in.
None.

There can be no meaning discourse or discussion on the subject when both sides are trying to convince the other that they are right. The very nature of the discussion is beyond reason as one side believes that anything is possible because of a supernatural being beyond our capacity to perceive, and the other side believes that nothing is possible except what we see and know.

It's a pissing match every single time.

I'm sorry but what exactly do atheists need evidence for? The theists make the assertion for a god. The atheists don't accept the assertion. Burden of proof 101.

 

[First Name]

What makes you so uncomfortable with atheism as a negative assertion?

Look: Ask any self identified atheist out of high school and they won't tell you "I believe god doesn't exist" but "I don't believe god exists/ there's not enough evidence". Defining atheism in your way makes it a useless term since an exceedingly small amount of people would classify themselves as knowing for 100% certain that no super natural being could exist.

Since these terms are meant to communicate people's beliefs, I think using the definition that actually describes what they believe/don't believe makes the most sense.

 

[Fusebox]

Because they complain about how religious people shove their views down people's throats and then go shove their views down people's throats.

They emulate religious people to the T. They gather in groups of like-minded individuals and then talk about how right they are and how awesome it is that they're atheists. It's exactly like a bible study. A bunch of Christians gathered together talking about how awesome they are that they are Christian.

I feel like they are on a crusade to convert everyone from Theism to being Atheist and it's the exact same thing they bitch about religious people for. It's just hypocritical and annoying. Your views are your views, keep them to yourself.

EDIT: And yes I understand it is a niche group I am talking about. I do not believe everyone that does not believe in a God is like the people I am describing by my post.

Let me know when The Atheists start knocking on your door at 7am on Sunday morning to tell you about the word of no God and then I'll start taking your posts seriously...

 

[Volimar]

Really, is your atheism so central to how you define yourself that you have to quibble over other people's definitions of it?

Let me know when The Atheists start knocking on your door at 7am on Sunday morning to tell you about the word of no God and then I'll start taking your posts seriously...

Yeah, or when they start putting up billboards about....oh wait...

 

[HK-47]

Atheism and theists have exactly the same amount of evidence for what they believe in.
None.

There can be no meaning discourse or discussion on the subject when both sides are trying to convince the other that they are right. The very nature of the discussion is beyond reason as one side believes that anything is possible because of a supernatural being beyond our capacity to perceive, and the other side believes that nothing is possible except what we see and know.

It's a pissing match every single time.

Its not for me to prove the non existence of god. I'd happily accept or at least consider if there was any evidence. The people making the claim should have evidence to back it up. So far, no one has done this.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Because it isn't. Read my previous post for potential enlightenment.

I read your post, and this:

Oh goodness, here we go again.

I am an atheist and I do not believe in god.

Is most definitely a negative assertion.

What tickles me about all this is that I used to be an atheist.

 

[Fugu]

How silly. How meaningless. This video only encourages the kind of pointless, go nowhere debate that he claims to be avoiding by calling himself agnostic. Not all atheists are fastidious about being atheists.

 

[Zebra]

Check my edit. Yes I understand that is an over-generalization of atheists.

Thank you.
I do agree that there are atheists like the ones you describe.

 

[onadesertedisland]

Atheism and theists have exactly the same amount of evidence for what they believe in.
None.

There can be no meaning discourse or discussion on the subject when both sides are trying to convince the other that they are right. The very nature of the discussion is beyond reason as one side believes that anything is possible because of a supernatural being beyond our capacity to perceive, and the other side believes that nothing is possible except what we see and know.

It's a pissing match every single time.

Atheist claim nothing only that they do not possess belief in a god, theists claim the existence of a supernatural being.
Which side needs to present evidence?

 

[Zebra]

I read your post, and this: Is most definitely a negative assertion.

What tickles me about all this is that I used to be an atheist.

I believe there is no god : negative assertion

I do not believe in god : empty position.

Both atheism, both very different.

 

[GrizzNKev]

I read your post, and this:

Is most definitely a negative assertion.

What tickles me about all this is that I used to be an atheist.

So you're telling me that if you say there is a god, and I disagree because you don't provide evidence, I'm not an atheist? This is news to me.

 

[cutmeamango]

Actually he's right. Agnosticism has nothing to do with whether one is a theist or not. It's just a statement of not being "certain" to some degree. Atheists can be agnostic, most are. Less are gnostic and believe that there is no god as a matter of fact.

Thomas Huxley coined the word in the parameters of theistic/atheistics discussions.

Even if we grant your tortured use of language, atheism would literally be without belief in god(as theos means god, ism means belief in and a without). Your setup here wants to make atheism and atheist mean two fundamentally different things. You've been attempting to support the underlying view here for a long time, for what reason I don't know. This is not the process you used to come to that conclusion; it is backfilling.

Haha okay then...

 

[CPS2]

I've heard Dawkins say that nobody would be 100% certain that there is no God, so it kinda does create some overlap and grey area between agnoticism and atheism. Neither of them know, one is just somehow more polite than the other.

What was interesting, was what it would take to convince you that God exists. Even if a 100ft tall Jesus appeared saying "i exist," was in front of you, there'd still be a tonne of good reasons to doubt it. If anyone can find that video where he said all that, it was interesting.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Because that's not what the definition is?

Look: Ask any self identified atheist out of high school and they won't tell you "I believe god doesn't exist" but "I don't believe god exists/ there's not enough evidence". Defining atheism in your way makes it a useless term since an exceedingly small amount of people would classify themselves as knowing for 100% certain that no super natural being could exist.

Since these terms are meant to communicate people's beliefs, I think using the definition that actually describes what they believe/don't believe makes the most sense.

I never claimed it was a matter of certainty. It's about having a belief one way or the other regardless.

 

[BocoDragon]

What makes you so uncomfortable with atheism as a negative assertion?

Putting aside the discussions of what the word atheism really means, lets look at what motivates the character of most atheists you see on message boards, etc.

Are they in the discussions for the motivation of "I have some sort of knowledge that there is no god, and I need to show it to you"?

Not really.

The tone of atheism is usually along the lines of "all those assertions by Jews, Muslims, Christians, and pantheist New Agers? Well, we don't assert those, we don't think they are reasonable arguments, and here's why..."

Most atheists are just saying they lack the same conviction of God's existence that much of the world claims. The general argument isnt of proving the lack of god, but in dismissing others' assertions about god.

 

[HK-47]

I've heard Dawkins say that nobody would be 100% certain that there is no God, so it kinda does create some overlap and grey area between agnoticism and atheism. Neither of them know, one is just somehow more polite than the other.

What was interesting, was what it would take to convince you that God exists. Even if a 100ft tall Jesus appeared saying "i exist," was in front of you, there'd still be a tonne of good reasons to doubt it. If anyone can find that video where he said all that, it was interesting.

He used a scale of 1 to 7 in terms of belief in existence of god where one was definitive belief a god exist and 7 was definitive belief a god doesnt exist. He was a 6.

 

[KHarvey16]

I never claimed it was a matter of certainty. It's about having a belief one way or the other regardless.

Lacking a belief in god, or not believing in god, is NOT having a belief. You do recognize the difference between not believing and believing it is not, correct?

 

[Hartt951]

Thank you.
I do agree that there are atheists like the ones you describe.

Yeah, I'm sorry about that, I was not meaning to offend anyone. The fact is the video in the OP exists because he was trying to distance himself from the niche group of atheists I labeled as "annoying" and I was just trying to highlight that.

And for the ending debate issue:
I'm just saying that when you believe something so strongly, that a logical discussion is no longer possible, and you could never change your view, then there is no point in having a debate because it would lead to nothing. There are some atheists who exhibit these characteristics and there are a lot of theists who exhibit their characteristics, therefore most of the time a debate about God between theists and non-theists is pointless. Not to mention, it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God. So yes, I am just saying let's be friends and debate things that could actually lead to a change and betterment for society.

 

[Angry Fork]

Because they complain about how religious people shove their views down people's throats and then go shove their views down people's throats.

They emulate religious people to the T. They gather in groups of like-minded individuals and then talk about how right they are and how awesome it is that they're atheists. It's exactly like a bible study. A bunch of Christians gathered together talking about how awesome they are that they are Christian.

I feel like they are on a crusade to convert everyone from Theism to being Atheist and it's the exact same thing they bitch about religious people for. It's just hypocritical and annoying. Your views are your views, keep them to yourself.

EDIT: And yes I understand it is a niche group I am talking about. I do not believe everyone that does not believe in a God is like the people I am describing by my post.

Explain how making the case of truth in science and trying to prevent superstition from having a place in politics/society is a bad thing.

When atheists 'shove' their views down people's throats: theists get butt hurt.

When theists 'shove' their views down people's throats: people are slaughtered in the name of god, women can't get contraception or abortions without going through loops, women don't have equal rights as men and are continuously treated as cattle, proper science can't be taught in schools because some teachers would rather believe mythology, etc. the list goes on. You cannot be serious and equate 'dogmatic' atheism with dogmatic theism.

Yeah, I'm sorry about that, I was not meaning to offend anyone. The fact is the video in the OP exists because he was trying to distance himself from the niche group of atheists I labeled as "annoying" and I was just trying to highlight that.

And for the ending debate issue:
I'm just saying that when you believe something so strongly, that a logical discussion is no longer possible, and you could never change your view, then there is no point in having a debate because it would lead to nothing. There are some atheists who exhibit these characteristics and there are a lot of theists who exhibit their characteristics, therefore most of the time a debate about God between theists and non-theists is pointless. Not to mention, it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God. So yes, I am just saying let's be friends and debate things that could actually lead to a change and betterment for society.

Spreading superstition/fear is not a good thing for society. This is what religion is and it should be combated.

 

[onadesertedisland]

I never claimed it was a matter of certainty. It's about having a belief one way or the other regardless.

Are you certain for the thousands of other gods humanity has come to embrace and then discard? What exactly do you mean belief one way or the other? Why would you believe in the non-existence of something? Why is there not a null position for the non-existence? Do you feel need to place value into a place-holder? Are you certain there is no Odin? Or is the concept so far out it deserves no discussion and thus you simply do not believe?

 

[speculawyer]

Atheism is like breast feeding in public, I can't watch it while it's happening. Just drink my coffee as quickly as possible, pay the bill, and get the hell out of there.

What exactly do you think Atheism looks like?

 

[HK-47]

What exactly do you think Atheism looks like?

r/atheism

A hive of scum and breast feeding.