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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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I suspect anyone that really cares which is more powerful at this point only cares because they already decided which they will pick up and they don't want it to be the weaker of the two.
Highly doubtful IMO.
How big are SSDs these days?
Are they still generally far more expensive for the same general size compared to a standard HDD?
I can believe that they are shrinking the PS3 down more, it makes sense to keep trying to make it cheaper, but wouldn't moving to an SSD bring down the storage down quite a bit considering the cost for a large one?
Graphics Horse
Member
Yes they are, when I said small SSD I mean PS3 lauch size small.
From memory, of the tests people have done by putting an SSD in current and past PS3's, they don't really increase the load times for PS3 games by much, a few seconds maybe but nothing dramatic, the OS/Hardware seems to be limited in some fashion for games loading for some reason.
General XMB stuff though like installing or deleting is a bit faster on an SSD, but it doesn't look like it is worth it at all for retail gaming.
With the number of games on the PlayStation store and games that require installing these days, it seems counter productive to go back to limiting the space people have, less space means less games.
jeff_rigby
Banned
1) Please explain why it would be hard to shrink Cell.
2) With a 100% compatible PS3 cell hardware design, if just a shrink, please explain how Sony is going to fix their security key leak.
3) Please explain how Sony could support low power modes and what it would take to do so with current hardware?
4) Please explain how Sony is going to compete with a new Xbox that has HDMI pass-thru, low power modes and Kinect?
5) Please explain how Sony is going to properly support Augmented Reality without a depth camera?
It's time for you to step up and explain your position.
20GB at best directly on the motherboard.
Which would force them to keep the expansion bay for people who want to make an upgrade.
So yeah it's not really easy to balance all the issues (price, size of the unit, memory capacity).
What is the advantage of having HDMI pass-through in this case? I know its having a signal passed with no processing. But what exactly are we passing through here?
edit: ok what found
anything I'm missing?
McHuj
Member
I bet by the middle of next gen, the SSDs will replace HDDs. SSD prices are plummeting now, by next summer it wouldn't surprise me if prices were down another 50%. SSD's also have a much lower cost floor than a mechanical SSD so long term it makes sense.
I think people forget that when the 360 came out, HDD prices were comparable to what SSD's cost now per gigabyte. A 20 GB MS hard drive for the 360 cost $100 (yes, I know MS markup).
But I could see a console sold with a 64-128GB SSD and a 256GB one sold as separately as an upgrade. By 2015 (in three years), I bet 500-1000GB SSD's are cheaper then comparable HDDs.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Sure, they are likely both working on further shrinks. But with the kinds of features described here, here and here (so using the same SOC with 1 GB of RAM which emulates current Xbox 360 and PS3 software, both coming with Kinect or Kinet-like interface, a stong emphasis on augmented reality, and available this holiday)? Because that's what jeff_rigby is predicting, not just a simple hardware revision.
Graphics Horse
Member
jeff_rigby
Banned
Thanks for the accurate summary of my position. And Yes, the digitimes rumor would support just a new slimmer Slim with Kinect interface but would it sell 20 million the first year, doubtful. It has to have a wider appeal to a wider audience or be much much cheaper.
Oh, and if it doesn't have low power modes and is not grandfathered in, it can't be sold in California or some countries overseas. I think the last Slim got in under the wire as did the Xbox360S. Anyone know the laws on this?
I don't want to get into the rumor mongering part but here's 1 informal comparison:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1502794
About twice as fast for GT5.
Different games and use cases will show varying speed up, depending on where the bottlenecks are.
While we're at it,"Remove Disk" could also mean a cloud drive, not necessarily a top loader.
Although this vid has shitty quality I feel it drives home the point. The seek time for SSD is on another level compared to HDD. Given that texture streaming is here to stay and will only become more prevalent as the texture sizes grow next generation, won't SSD be the best solution for it?
You're basing your flawed logic on the assumption that MS is most definitely going to release a 360.5 with low power mode, HDMI pass through, etc. I already explained why launching a revised system this year, with different hardware as you claim, would be foolish seeing how they are launching a next gen system next year.
IMO it doesn't make sense to bother with HDMI pass through when companies can just use IPTV.
jeff_rigby
Banned
California Energy savings
(2nd Qtr 2012 2nd Qtr 2013)
Phase 1: Displays;
Video game consoles;
Computers;
Set‐top boxes
Similar proposals and laws in other countries
Wow a serious knowledge hole where XTV is concerned. It's true that after Allvid is fully adopted HDMI pass-thru might not be needed but that might be too late for even next generation. Do you understand what XTV brings us? It's not just Netflix. It's being able to accept a Skype call on your TV instantly in a overlay window. To be able to accept email, to lookup information, TV guides...who was that actor. This is being offered in Smart TVs but in an external box you need HDMI pass-thru and unless you want high power bills you need low power modes.
Low power modes and the difficulty in shrinking the Cell as well as forward support for accessories as well as ecosystem support for handhelds and tablets really really imply dumping the current design and starting over.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The one thing you can take to the bank about any next-generation hardware is that price-sensitivity is going to be THE major concern.
Whatever the solution, it has to be cost effective.
You can see rationale for Sony blue-skying it with PS3 based on their market position during conception, but now... no way would they repeat the same strategy.
Especially given that its monumentally unlikely that anyone is going to have a paradigm-shifting new feature to push-off, the playing-field is likely to be actually pretty level in terms of feature-set, meaning that competitive advantage is likely to be more about price-point than anything else.
Whatever the solution, it has to be cost effective.
You can see rationale for Sony blue-skying it with PS3 based on their market position during conception, but now... no way would they repeat the same strategy.
Especially given that its monumentally unlikely that anyone is going to have a paradigm-shifting new feature to push-off, the playing-field is likely to be actually pretty level in terms of feature-set, meaning that competitive advantage is likely to be more about price-point than anything else.
BradleyLove
Member
A mate of mine who works at SCEE Liverpool mentioned a couple of months ago a "new PS3 chassis" is coming. He wouldn't say any more than that due to NDA's and the like.
What a "new chassis" is I don't know. It could be just a minor revision like we've seen over the last few years; it could be what jeff is talking about?
I've asked my other mate who also works there (in FPQA) but he doesn't know anything as his dept only deal with games.
What a "new chassis" is I don't know. It could be just a minor revision like we've seen over the last few years; it could be what jeff is talking about?
I've asked my other mate who also works there (in FPQA) but he doesn't know anything as his dept only deal with games.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes and this I think explains microsoft-sony.com.
Competition is going to be about the services offered and the game console front end (XMB for the PS3) is a big part of it. In the US it's probably going to be about the price point unfortunately.
Thanks, that's another indication. Sorry we can't take your word for it but it adds to the weight of the cites.BradleyLove said:
Ah I see, thanks.
You know you really need to stop talking to people like they are idiots.
I understand all this, I just don't see why it would be a priority for current gen consoles.
Sounds like a poor way of slapping a band-aid on a problem that would be better solved with next gen hardware.
Nothing will come of this.
Being one of the internal studios, I'd have assumed they'd enlisted for some first hand info on PS4 as well. Any word oh that?
H_Prestige
Banned
This is really all it's going to come down to. Feature set and software will be more similar than ever this coming gen.
dragonelite
Member
I think they will market the xbox 365 and ps3.5 for the wiiU crowd.
And use the Xbox 720 ps4 to gain back some momentum on the gamer market.
They will probably stop support year 3 when the next gen started and production cost has been reduced for mass market pricing.Wasn't that inside that ms PP stop backward compatibility after year 3.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
What's "the Wii U crowd"?
dragonelite
Member
Soccers moms you know the folks that also bought the wii and will buy the Wii U because they think it is a tablet for the wii
Will be part of the wii U crowd if they can deliver that zelda demo.
Thing is, MS and Sony don't need new hardware dressed up as a .5 system to combat the Wii-U until the 720/ps4 arrive. That's my biggest issue with all crazy .5 talk. Makes no sense for them to spend years on reducing cost of existing hardware just release new hardware.
Also I don't think MS will include the guts of the existing 360 in the 720 to provide BC. That leaked document was never meant to be taken seriously on a technical level.
to beat Apple they have to think like apple, so a updated PS3/Xbox360 will keep the hardware new so they can continue to sell you their products & services. they wouldn't want you to unhook your PS3\Xbox360 in the next few years & replace it with the WiiU\AppleTV\GoogleTV because they have a feature that you want but couldn't get with the old PS3\Xbox360 & the newer consoles are too much for you at the moment.
MS and Sony already have the install base to beat apple and google at most of these features. Releasing new hardware means you're starting from scratch while breaking compatibility with existing software.
No matter what MS and Sony do, people will always see the ps360 as old machines.
A revision of existing hardware, I can see. New hardware is what makes no sense to me.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
KageMaru said:
It makes perfect sense when you consider how important e-commerce and online services are as a profit generator.
Also lets not forget that the way MS terminated production of the original XBox to make way for 360 was the exception, not the rule. Products don't just "die" when a successor appears, they are used to trickle down into emerging markets.
it's not going to break compatibility it's still a PS3\Xbox360 they just have newer parts & features. like iPad1 to iPad2.
Everyone wants the living room TV. MS has done pretty well with Xbox, but it still requires you to switch on, change inputs etc. and they are at risk from smart TVs, especially when most of the entertainment channels they offer are horizontal and available on many boxes.
They don't make TVs, so an alternative would be a google TV type play, using the xbox as the Trojan horse. So you don't need to do anything, you can just watch TV, and get message notifications, game invites etc overlaid. That could potentially really increase the uptake of Xbox live as it'll be easier to hook up with people for games. Plus kinect voice/gesture control could handle your TV/settop box, eg searching for 'house' you get your recordings, upcoming broadcasts and episodes across available online services. That part of google TV is the most interesting to me, far more than simpy having the web on your TV, it's how well you can integrate online and linear broadcast.
I expect apple to do a lot in this area if/when they bring out apple TV, and Sony are already invested in smart TV/google TV. So MS need their equivalent or risk Xbox and Xbox live being pushed out of the living room
Edit: sorry, didn't see 'current gen'. In that case I agree with you lol, but they would probably want to introduce it next gen. The idea of a cut down version with just the 'smart tv' elements makes sense too.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Soccers moms you know the folks that also bought the wii and will buy the Wii U because they think it is a tablet for the wii
That has yet to happen, and it very well might not. Besides, Xbox 360 is already catering to that segment.
BradleyLove
Member
No. Departments are very much segregated and there's no free access between areas at SCEE (I also worked there back in 1998 and they had a swipe card system; dunno about now though). Everyone I know at SCEE are all involved in PS3 related work.
Again, I know no one has to believe me on this and I don't expect anyone to blindly accept this as fact but there's a funny story about my mate.
Just before PS3 released, he was telling me about this "thing" where you had a virtual person and you had your own apartment and could interact with other players, buy stuff, launch games and so on. At the time I thought my mate was full of shit. A few years later Home was released. He'd been testing it in Alpha back when he was in FPQA.
He never lets me live that one down even to this day.
I'm kind of confused. I understand what MS did with the first xbox was the exception, not the rule. There was no way they were going to profit on the system, so cutting it off was the best option. However they are profiting on the 360 hardware, which is why I don't see them replacing the guts of the system.
Yes it would break compatibility. Throwing in another CPU/GPU will break compatibility.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Not necessarily, depends on allot of things, my iapd3 plays all the games my ipad 2 did, and PC games normally work just fine after a GPU\CPU upgrade.
I think it all depends on how exotic the coding is\was and the framework involved, the developer should really have to worry about the hardware unless their writing right down to the metal(Vs directX?) which I don't think is the norm these days.
Developers get pretty close to the metal on both platforms, it is the norm these days as it's the only way to get decent performance out of these platforms. The abstraction layer of IOS is FAR FAR thicker than what we have on consoles.
And he never will, lol.
I suppose eventually, you'll be one of the first people to know about PS4 when the kits reach the studio (still quite surprised that they haven't already). Do feed us any new info you can spare in times to come.
BradleyLove
Member
I have no doubt there's "PS4" dev kits at SCEE Liverpool right now but my mates won't know anything about it until the first games hit Alpha in FPQA. Unless they've learned how not to blab when drunk, which I doubt!
phosphor112
Banned
I will help you fund his alcoholic habits. :lol
Anyway, just wanted to point out, PS3 already has a small feature that lets you turn on the TV when you turn the PS3 on. "Control for HDMI." Small feature that is kinda neat, you can control both devices with one controller, etc, but would be perfect for more of a set top box.
dragonelite
Member
Pretty close so their is still a layer Microsoft can either build something for or port it.
Make it a specification of the chip maker we need x,y,z,etc commands make it happen and so many cycle(silicon?)for the game and so many for the extra background features.
At least that is something i think Microsoft is more then capable of.
The logistics for the alcohol shipment and destinations need to change from your friend to your friend's friend who is in the dev team. Still, when information does trickle, if you can, please do share.
__________________________________________________________
I recently noticed that the memory interface for RSX (GDDR3) was 128 bit. Are we to see a repeat of that once more or will we be finally seeing 256 bit?
Also, the number of ROPs were cut down from 7800 level to 7600 at 8 units. Is it going to be the same story this gen as well? For ref: Pitcairn 7850 has 32 ROPs.
Both systems have thin layered API really.
If MS does offer BC, I expect it to be through emulation. Including 360 hardware as indicated by that old document isn't practical for many reasons.
Whatever hardware they end up having, they will decide how much to reserve for the OS. From there, I'm hoping, they will optimize and minimize the memory footprint, along with the process requirements, of the OS.
I'd think it's all but certain that the PS4 will include some flash storage for the OS that also leaves enough room for some DLC, PSN games, and game saves, as well as used for caching from an ODD or a mechanical HDD. I'd say between 16-32 GB. The primary HDD will not be SSD until SSD price per GB beats HDD's of course.
Yeah, I agree. I would be surprised if any next gen system didn't have some flash storage. I don't think they'll have SSD, which is what I was replying to.
SSD is a type of flash storage you know, but I'm not going to go into semantics as I get your point...
lol yes I know, I was just keeping things within context of the original question =p
I have heard it here that apparently the type of flash storage that is rumoured to be in PS4 has limited writes and rewrites allotted to it. I was wondering, "well, hey, how is that any different from a normal hdd and its MTBF?". Somehow I got the impression that the number is smaller for that kind of flash storage and therefore would not be conducive for it to be used as an intermediary fast buffer between optical media/HDD and RAM.
So, what's the truth behind reliability of this flash memory?
LittleJohnny
Banned
You mean just like the PS3 is more powerful than 360? The only advantage the PS3 had over 360 was Blu-ray and even that had disadvantages with it's slower read speeds, lots of PS3 games had mandatory installs because of it. Now with both using Blu-ray it's really going to be about who had the extra cash lying around to invest.
I know that most people think it's best to stick with cheap, but people are willing to pay for quality, the issue with the PS3 was more than just the high price, if the PS3 performed as well as it was hyped in 2005, it would've killed regardless of the price, but there was too much negative press surrounding the PS3, negative press that would kill an Apple product, which brings me to my next point, you build something that people want and they will buy it at a high price.
Look at MS Surface, did MS try to build a cheaper iPad in order to compete? no, they're competing by investing on a solid product and it's my belief that MS will build a cutting edge console that's just as efficient as Xbox 360 was in 2005
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