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[Kazuma Kiryu]

hey look, the wiiU fans arrived.

 

[i-Lo]

TWO HUNDRED WATTS?!? <reaches for sunblock>

PS3 drew around 209W during peak wattage consumption on its first iteration. Go get your sunblock.

hey look, the wiiU fans arrived.

LoL, it was only a matter of time.

 

[AzaK]

PS3 drew around 209W during peak wattage consumption on its first iteration. Go get your sunblock.
LoL, it was only a matter of time.

Yeah but they'll be more efficient this time around right? Especially if you factor in costs which I imagine Sony are going to try and minimise. I realise it's not a 1:1 relationship but if you throw the kitchen sink in there and make it all powerful you're bound to up the TDP and price both.

Will be interesting to see how they approach cost this time around.

 

[jeff_rigby]

With minor differences, below is my view also

I think the potential a10 in the dev kit is only a stop gap solution that's closer to the final hardware. It's only used because its what's available now commercially.

Trinity is a 32nm product, I think the PS4 will be a 28nm product. I don't think shrinking trinity to 28nm would be as worthwhile as just going with a 28nm Kaveri derivative. The power and area savings I think are too good to pass up.

My guess (based upon the earlier rumors) is that the dev kit progression is something like this a8-3850 plus 7670 GPU to a10 derivative plus some GPU to a final silicon of a 28nm APU That has the equivalent compute power of a 3850+7670 but in one chip, about 1.2-1.5 TFlops.

With Jaguar CPUs AKA Kabini there is TDP budget for a larger GPU 2.2 TFlops (Remember we want 10X PS3 GPU power (SPUs + RSX)). 1 SoC appears to be the goal though...that's considerably cheaper than having two memory pools and 2 power supplies to support APU and discrete GPU (motherboard contains power supplies for 1.3V or whatever the APU and GPU needs (5V main supply is converted to lower voltages for memory and APU)).

 

[thuway]

With minor differences, below is my view also

With Jaguar CPUs AKA Kabini there is TDP budget for a larger GPU 2.2 TFlops (Remember we want 10X PS3 GPU power (SPUs + RSX)).

So are you saying it'll be close to 3.0 TF?

 

[Soi-Fong]

7970 is a beastly GPU...Can't wait for the next gen!

Meh, a GTX 680 is better. Would rather Sony have gone with that.

 

[jeff_rigby]

So are you saying it'll be close to 3.0 TF?

No, I'm saying that the MIN mentioned by Sony is 10X or 1.8 Tflops. If it's possible to get more performance within a price and TDP budget they will do so. If sweetvar26 is correct they changed to jaguar CPUs which makes way in the TDP and price budget (both size/cost and power) for a larger GPU.

Also the A10 has a 128 bit wide DDR3 memory which does not have enough bandwidth for 300 FPS. The semi-custom APU win mentioned in the AMD conference must have 2014 designs for memory at the minimum. It also should have the HDMI-2 or DP and adaptors and the HDMI port should include some way to send Touchscreen information back to the Console.

Better written article:

With gamers getting antsy for next-generation consoles, VG247 is reporting that development kits for Sony&#8217;s (SNE) PlayStation 4 (code-named &#8220;Orbis&#8221 have already been sent out to developers. VG247&#8242;s sources claim there are four versions of the dev kit and the one just shipped out is a &#8220;modified PC&#8221; based on AMD&#8217;s (AMD) A10 APU (Accelerated Processing Unit) that combines a CPU and GPU on a single chip to run games in 1080p resolution at 60 frames per second in 3D without any slowdown. Dev kits are said to have between 8GB and 16GB of RAM, 256GB of storage (it&#8217;s not clear if that&#8217;s SSD or a hard drive), an optical drive for Blu-ray playback and all the standard inputs/outputs found on the PlayStation 3 including HDMI, Ethernet and Wi-Fi.

But before you fall off your seat, do remember that dev kits often have higher specs and more RAM for debugging purposes. The final product might be less powerful.

VG247&#8242;s report also says that the dev kits aren&#8217;t made in Japan (a first) and are designed with a UI that allows users to easily jump in and out of open games and applications and install updates in the background.

The PlayStation 4 will reportedly be &#8220;very affordable.&#8221; BGR exclusively reported in August that the PlayStation 4 would run games and video content at 4K resolution.

VG247 says it believes the PS4 will be announced before E3 2013.

 

[systemfehler]

[...] very affordable [...] means either Sony subsidizes the PS4 heavily or it simply won't be so powerfull and there really is only a APU.

 

[DieH@rd]

[...] very affordable [...] means either Sony subsidizes the PS4 heavily or it simply won't be so powerfull and there really is only a APU.

It could also mean that they will take ordinary PC hardware and modify it slightly for console use - enlarge memory controllers, yank out unnecessary PC oriented transistors, insert security measures [triple layered dystopian hypervisor ].

Last time they went with fully custom made CELL [$1billion for R&D, $90 for manufacture, $120 for RSX manufacture] and brand new ultra expensive Bluray tech [$125 for launch drive], this time they will have much more affordable high end tech.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/news/2006-11/ps3_costs_isupply.gif

 

[Graphics Horse]

Also the A10 has a 128 bit wide DDR3 memory which does not have enough bandwidth for 300 FPS.

The PS4 is not going to support 300 FPS output. However, supporting input from a 300 FPS PSeye wouldn't strike me as out of the question with the PS3's already doing 120FPS and Sony make 300fps sensors. The article didn't mention whether it was input or output but I'd argue latency below 50ms is more important for an input camera than rendering.

 

[EricDiesel]

hey look, the wiiU fans arrived.

I'm a PS3 and PC fan more than I am a Wii/Wii U fan, but I appreciate the generalization.

 

[sweetvar26]

If sweetvar26 is correct

I wish I can talk more from now on...

 

[jeff_rigby]

The PS4 is not going to support 300 FPS output. However, supporting input from a 300 FPS PSeye wouldn't strike me as out of the question with the PS3's already doing 120FPS and Sony make 300fps sensors. The article didn't mention whether it was input or output but I'd argue latency below 50ms is more important for an input camera than rendering.

AMD's Eyefinity can support multiple monitors at the same time. If you add up the FPS for each monitor and assume 1080P@60hz for each and 5 monitors as in the picture I posted or the Sony slide show it equals 300 FPS. That is one case, your input camera and other configurations of displays another. It's a way to calculate the bandwidth needed by the video streams being moved in memory at the same time.

This was used as an example by a Sony engineer to other engineers of the need for memory bandwidth that can be supplied by 2.5 or 3D stacked and ultra wide memory. 128 bit wide DDR3 won't cut it. GDDR5 can provide that kind of transfer speed but it runs too hot and requires drive current that will cause a memory controller in a SoC to get hot.

AMD is targeting low power handhelds with their 2014 and later designs. Handhelds are now using ultrawide low power - low drive memory so I expect AMD 2014 APUs will support the same. DDR4 is designed to require lower drive current and runs cooler so it can be stacked and used in or adjacent to Fusion SoCs.

300 frames with each frame having 2 million pixels (1920 X 1080) with each pixel requiring 10 or more bits for color is 20 million X 300/8 = 750 million bytes/sec transferred each and every second and that is the most simple case. That amount of memory access will swiftly create heat issues in the memory controller. Any combination of video streams be it input or output to head mounted glasses or multiple monitors or a 8K screen will create the same conditions.

5 video output streams also creates heat issues in the AMD southbridge chip and Display Port. The A10 can currently support only 3 monitors but it looks like 5 streams are to be supported in the PS4. Again, 2014 design as the current designs can't cut it. And optimally 22nm not 28nm for the AMD Southbridge chip which in a 2011 conference AMD stated was coming.

I wish I can talk more from now on...

Don't sweat it.... Sony should leak occasionally to keep the speculation game going. To my mind they have done so in lectures to other professionals. AMD has done the same. The last few cites have been slide shows (2011) from both AMD and Sony to professionals not the press. 300FPS from Sony = AMD new memory interface in 2014 designs.

4 developer platforms:

1) GPU with X86 CPU, little to no HSA
2) A8 APU with separate GPU, some HSA
3) A10 APU no mention of separate GPU, More HSA efficiencies
4) AXX APU custom design, 2014 design full HSA

The final mystery about the HSA Foundation is who will fill the final tile space on the web page, it's likely already decided with each member choosing when they announce their membership. I can think of a few candidates that might be interested in being part of the HSA, like Broadcom, IBM, Microsoft and Sony. Microsoft and Sony? Well, they both design their own hardware, in Microsoft's case have successfully worked with AMD in the past, and AMD is rumored to be the platform provider for both next gen consoles with custom IP designs. Will the next generation of Sony Playstation and XBOX be powered by AMD APUs, GCN architecture variant, and will they be Bulldozer family architecture - or Jaguar family?

 

[Skenzin]

I'm going out a limb and offer my prediction on all this ps4/720 spec analysis. 720 seems to have shifted a lot from rumored PPC/ARM to AMD x86. 720/ps4 specs are now looking identical.

-If I had to guess... MS will buy Sony this year. Terms were probably agreed upon recently.

My guess is a spec truce was agreed upon so each side didnt loose billions again and relationships formed from there.

Reasons.
1. Sony is struggling in almost all hardware categories and losing money. They're cheap and unfocused as a company. They have a great brand that is slowly fading.
2. Apple has shown everyone you have to control a software/hardware ecosystem.
3. The old fight for the living room doesn't even make sense anymore.
4. The 'wintel' monopoly days are slowly ending. MS sees the writing on the wall and will have change a lot if it wants to survive as a top dog.
4. MS needs hardware design for phones, tablets, set top boxes, smart tvs.
5. Neither is going to beat the other for console dominance. MS has shown it can successfully use a console as bridgehead into the living room and generate revenue. Sony has been much less successful at this. (and thats being kind).
6. It makes sense, each offers something the other lacks.

 

[B.O.O.M]

MS buying sony? come on man...you really are not serious are you?

And sweetvar, why? Can't you even drop hints anymore?

 

[Skenzin]

MS buying sony? come on man...you really are not serious are you?

And sweetvar, why? Can't you even drop hints anymore?

Stranger things have happened in business.. Apple and Valve are getting ready to enter the TV fight.

Sony is worth about 15 Billion dollars and has lots of pissed of investors. MS is worth 250 Billion.

Its a crazy theory but it fits a lot of behavior. Huge change in 360 silicon rumors. Neither company even hinting console plans.

 

[Ashes]

I'm going out a limb and offer my prediction on all this ps4/720 spec analysis. 720 seems to have shifted a lot from rumored PPC/ARM to AMD x86. 720/ps4 specs are now looking identical.

-If I had to guess... MS will buy Sony this year. Terms were probably agreed upon recently.

My guess is a spec truce was agreed upon so each side didnt loose billions again and relationships formed from there.

Reasons.
1. Sony is struggling in almost all hardware categories and losing money. They're cheap and unfocused as a company. They have a great brand that is slowly fading.
2. Apple has shown everyone you have to control a software/hardware ecosystem.
3. The old fight for the living room doesn't even make sense anymore.
4. The 'wintel' monopoly days are slowly ending. MS sees the writing on the wall and will have change a lot if it wants to survive as a top dog.
4. MS needs hardware design for phones, tablets, set top boxes, smart tvs.
5. Neither is going to beat the other for console dominance. MS has shown it can successfully use a console as bridgehead into the living room and generate revenue. Sony has been much less successful at this. (and thats being kind).
6. It makes sense, each offers something the other lacks.

1. Sony appears to be doing a lot better in it's efforts to turn around their business and are on course to make a profit this year.
2. This is a side point. Unless you mean MS should buy Sony to compete with Apple.
3. Why not?
4. MS was never top dog in the living room.
4. ( this is your second reason number 4 btw, but I'll go with the error, just to be parallel with your list). They don't need additional hardware designs, but sure buying Sony gives you that side.
5. If generating revenue is all important, the ps3 being more expensive, and with the vita, Ps2, Sony has consistently generated more revenue, no? I could be wrong though.
6. Not for the price, it would cost. A merger is also unlikely.

That's some bump.

 

[B.O.O.M]

Stranger things have happened in business.. Apple and Valve are getting ready to enter the TV fight.

Sony is worth about 15 Billion dollars and has lots of pissed of investors. MS is worth 250 Billion.

Its a crazy theory but it fits a lot of behavior. Huge change in 360 silicon rumors. Neither company even hinting console plans.

well honestly something like MS buying sony is way more stranger than the example you gave. IF you said the are investing or even buying out a division/business of sony's then I would have agreed, that could happen. But the company itself? nah no way.

Heck I don't think the Japanese government or even the Japanese executives would let it happen.

Sony has been making a lot of new investments recently and in a year or so we will be able to see if they paid off or not. But yeah a sell out is not gonna happen

 

[phosphor112]

I wish I can talk more from now on...

Welcome back man. Good to hear it wasn't a perm.

 

[Ashes]

Stranger things have happened in business.. Apple and Valve are getting ready to enter the TV fight.

Sony is worth about 15 Billion dollars and has lots of pissed of investors. MS is worth 250 Billion.

Its a crazy theory but it fits a lot of behavior. Huge change in 360 silicon rumors. Neither company even hinting console plans.

No. Sony is 'bigger' than Microsoft. Or was bigger last time I looked at a Fortune 500 list.

Microsoft isn't doing so hot with win 8, and Surface whilst Sony is turning it around.

 

[grimshawish]

MS and Sony would add zero value to one another. ZERO.
What an insane idea.

 

[Reiko]

MS and Sony would add zero value to one another. ZERO.
What an insane idea.

Gran Turismo X Forza


The greatest Racing Game ever made.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Gran Turismo X Forza


The greatest Racing Game ever made.

Street Fighter X Tekken of the racing genre.

 

[jeff_rigby]

1. Sony appears to be doing a lot better in it's efforts to turn around their business and are on course to make a profit this year.
2. This is a side point. Unless you mean MS should buy Sony to compete with Apple.
3. Why not?
4. MS was never top dog in the living room.
4. ( this is your second reason number 4 btw, but I'll go with the error, just to be parallel with your list). They don't need additional hardware designs, but sure buying Sony gives you that side.
5. If generating revenue is all important, the ps3 being more expensive, and with the vita, Ps2, Sony has consistently generated more revenue, no? I could be wrong though.
6. Not for the price, it would cost. A merger is also unlikely.

That's some bump.

BY3D is starting to speculate on identical hardware in Xbox3 and PS4 due to information generated in BY3D by posts copied from NeoGAF. A rethink of the business ramifications in microsoft-sony.com and Microsoft and Sony working together and the points recently brought up follows. Microsoft buying Sony is a stretch and I don't think it's happening because Sony is issuing bonds that will dilute the stock value to generate money (rather than sell real estate in the current market) to finance XTV-Cloud infrastructure and purchasing a stake in companies that have medical imaging. PSN services and their optical division are the key thrusts. PSN services means a cheap PS4 is likely.