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I WANT: Open world Zelda; core items from start; challenging, with skippable tutorial
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
HyperCubed4
Member
Zelda games have never needed a tutorial before, that's one of the reasons that made them great. The act of even putting in a tutorial would saturate the game. If you need to tell people how to play your game, you're not doing your job properly. Blindly dumping the player into a game with no direction obviously isn't the right choice either, but a tutorial right off the bat isn't the right way to go.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
You know what Zelda game I want more than anything? What Nintendo should have done last year?
Zelda, more than any other franchise in gaming, means something different to literally every single person that plays it. The creators even play on that, and was a big focus of the 25th anniversary push last year. To some, it's the exploration, others the combat, some the puzzles, some the quirky world.
Nintendo should have taken $100,000,000USD, split it ten ways, and given $10mm to ten different devs and let them make whatever mini-Zelda they want, and compile them on one disc. Aonuma loosely ties them all together with an overarching story, they call it "The Legends of Zelda" boom cashmoney.
etc, you would literally please everyone this way
Zelda, more than any other franchise in gaming, means something different to literally every single person that plays it. The creators even play on that, and was a big focus of the 25th anniversary push last year. To some, it's the exploration, others the combat, some the puzzles, some the quirky world.
Nintendo should have taken $100,000,000USD, split it ten ways, and given $10mm to ten different devs and let them make whatever mini-Zelda they want, and compile them on one disc. Aonuma loosely ties them all together with an overarching story, they call it "The Legends of Zelda" boom cashmoney.
- Koizumi makes a weird ass experimental Zelda
- Sakurai makes a fast paced multiplayer action Zelda
- Squeenix makes a JRPG
- Bethesda does an open world Hyrule
- From Software gives us a Zelda 2 sequel
etc, you would literally please everyone this way
Spring-Loaded
Member
Makes me think of how Shadow of the Colossus and how you never gain new skills/items, but uou hardly do the same thing for morr than two colossi.
That's a valid point, but surely not impossible to solve. Maybe the game could have scalable difficulty, adjusting the enemy layouts, attack patterns, etc, in each dungeon as you go through them. But really, I think it would be fine for some dungeons to simply be harder. It would be like Demon's Souls or Dark Souls: You explore a new area, you find yourself in over your head, you back out and decide to explore elsewhere. Then, when you're a more seasoned player, you come back and try the problem area again -- and this time the challenge is "just right."
Agree 100% with the OP. Zelda's core's been rotting for awhile; aside from the brief aside in WW, I'm just plain annoyed with the direction it's taken since OoT. I know MM's the darling of GAF, and I love all its ideas on paper, but the game's aesthetics (and the franchise's aesthetics at large since OoT) are enough to drive me the fuck away.
papersleeves
Member
War has changed...
Jawmuncher
Member
In a perfect world this would be the next Zelda game we get and the first one I would like since LTTP.
but we don't live in a perfect world.
but we don't live in a perfect world.
A relatively simple solution would be to load the "later" dungeons with enemies whose weaknesses are items from the "earlier" ones, not unlike the way Mega Man games have an implied boss order that a skilled enough player can ignore.
By "tutorial" I mean endless explanations by Navi/Midna/Fi/etc, I mean the game pausing to explain any item every time you've picked it up (YES, I KNOW HOW MUCH A BLUE RUPEE IS WORTH), I mean fetch quests at the start of Skyward Sword to "demonstrate" and "teach" mechanics, etc. All of that is what I consider a tutorial. You know, the slow-ass parts that drag for an hour or two at the start of the last several 3D Zeldas.
Let's get back to MM. Chase the Skull Kid to Clock Town and BOOM, clock's ticking, you're on your own motherfucker, think fast.
I would honestly just be happy if the next one was open world, had voice acting and the writing wasn't so goddamn awful and painful to read/listen to like in many japanese games. We can start there for the next Zelda and keep the improvements coming on future games, baby steps for now.
Oh man, voice acting. That's another thing they need to do, but they need to do it WELL. Everyone talks but Link; no annoying voices. Maybe an option for mouthing the words silently to text boxes if people want the old-school "storybook" approach.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I can't help but see this sentiment as very unrealistic, and also historically untrue.
Virtually every game, both electronic and non-electronic, requires instruction, tutorial, and a list of rules or a rule sheet at some point. NES games are often held up as examples of an age before 'tutorial bloat' but NES games came with something called an instruction manual. In point of fact, the manuals for Mario and Zelda games were usually quite complex. They basically laid out all the instructions that you now see inside the games themselves.
Arcade games, the epitome of walk up and play, had instruction sheets, posted rules, and lists of conditions. Later arcade games had large tutorial messages on the screen or start-up tutorials.
The problem isn't in-game instructions or tutorials, but tutorials that are done in a boring, lifeless, or grating way. Depending on your game design, it may be possible to almost entirely hide a tutorial behind game play. Other game designs don't make that so easy, so some degree of more explicit instruction may be necessary. Not every game is Super Mario Bros. 1.
The thing is, one man's ceiling is another man's floor. Zelda 1, really the ONLY game in the series that was non-linear to the degree that is exalted, is remembered as being superior due to its 'challenge'. But really, it was just overly difficult because there was no facility in a NES game to have any real kind of tutorial or more sophisticated methods for guiding the player. Young children are hard headed lil' bastards, so they beat their heads against the wall and beat the game anyway, just like we all beat 8-bit Mega Man when we were wee lads.
To me, Link to the Past is the best balance of guided gameplay with some tutorial messages, and non-linearity. LttP also seems to be the 'perfected' Zelda vision of the original creators. I'm not sure I'd want the kind of ultimate sandbox Zelda some want to see - we have other games for that. Zelda, to a degree, is characterized by lock-and-key game design, and being rewarded with a discovery or item to unlock another part of the game. That's part of the basic anticipation cycle when playing. Later games became too linear due to the complexity of designing, pacing, and most importantly, gating, a complex 3D world.
But I think a 3D Zelda that strove to achieve the balance of LttP would be golden.
I've always supported the idea of full voice acting by professional voice actors, but with all dialogue in a Hylian constructed language.
Jake Tower
Banned
Open world Zelda to the modern gamer:
Kid Icarus Uprising has one of the best scripts and voice acting in gaming in years, right up there with the Portal 2s of the world. When Nintendo puts their mind to it, they can write and voice with the best of 'em.
HyperCubed4
Member
Ohhhh... I get what you mean. So, no tutorials in general? I thought you meant one big one at the start of the game. That sounds a little better. No comments by Navi, Midna or Fi would have been great; Fi is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the most useless sidekick to any Nintendo character ever.
I can see the merit in not hearing quotes like "you are running low on hearts, go get hearts or you will die." Some form of direction may be needed, but if the game design is done properly, no direction may be needed at all.
ArachosiA 78
Member
I like all your ideas, OP. We need to find a way to get you hired as lead designer at Nintendo.
sorijealut
Member
I like the open world concept if it makes me feel more like link, and if I can make some choices, if you know what I mean.
I don't like having all items at start.
I don't like having all items at start.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Yeah, sorry about that -- I should've been clearer. Basically, I'm saying they should design the whole game so that you learn through the simple act of playing, -without- the game assigning you banal tasks to complete or stopping the game to blatantly explain something. For stuff like "what's a blue rupee," just tuck it away on the pause screen and let people pull it up on their own if they forget what it or any other item/mechanic does.
Visualante2
Member
I don't think it'll happen but I just wish they'd focus on sword and shield being your main interaction with the world. No HUD, no pointless menus or collectables, no currency or microgames. Less is more nowadays, make it about adventure not about gadgets. I swear Zelda feels more like a James Bond movie than a fucking fantasy adventure.
Make the characters meaningful, the world less scattershot and try to create something new leaving the legacy as little more than a subtle reference. They got closest with Wind Waker in my opinion (haven't played Majora's Mask but that sounds great to me). That game was boss.
Make the characters meaningful, the world less scattershot and try to create something new leaving the legacy as little more than a subtle reference. They got closest with Wind Waker in my opinion (haven't played Majora's Mask but that sounds great to me). That game was boss.
Well you know what given that only 25% of people are finishing games nowadays. Who gives a fuck anyway? Clint Hocking had a massive rant about this in the latest Edge.Open world Zelda to the modern gamer:
Lamiafusion
Member
You can have an open world Zelda when I get my Power Stone HD digital release (COME ON SEGA!)
Jake Tower
Banned
Starting with Wind Waker they have just really been stuck on creating some kind of emotional story. They keep trying to force it SOO much with each new release and the gameplay just suffers as a result. You just can't force something like that. If you want to create tension and drama the gameplay actually has to reinforce this. How you suppose to feel like you are in a life or death situation when an attack from some behemoth monsters only takes half of one of your many hearts? Or when there is absolutely no down side to failing to solve a puzzle or making a difficult jump? How are you suppose to feel like you are exploring if an NPC is always there ready to tell you about your motivations, objective and goal every time you encounter something new? Recent Zelda has just been so awful about this.
I quiet like the idea of a Metroid Prime style Zelda. Some free-roaming, with more paths opening up as you gather important items. Very minimal story introduction and focus in general. No side-kick, though if there is one they should be entirely silent unless prompted to speak. Gameplay doesn't have to Dark Souls with very encounter being life or death, but any risk/reward would make the combat enjoyable (I ran away form everything I could in TP/SS because fighting was just time consuming and boring).
I quiet like the idea of a Metroid Prime style Zelda. Some free-roaming, with more paths opening up as you gather important items. Very minimal story introduction and focus in general. No side-kick, though if there is one they should be entirely silent unless prompted to speak. Gameplay doesn't have to Dark Souls with very encounter being life or death, but any risk/reward would make the combat enjoyable (I ran away form everything I could in TP/SS because fighting was just time consuming and boring).
Jake Tower
Banned
walking fiend
Member
So why don't you just play TES, or Phantom Hourglass?
How can you even lump the graphic of games like WW, TP and SS together?! They are so different as if they are not from the same franchise; I am pretty sure for some one who doesn't know what games they are priory, it will be difficult to say if Link from WW is the same character as that of TP or SS
butter_stick
Banned
YOU'LL GET: Ocarina of Time with controller gimmicks, low difficulty and more handholding than ever before.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
commanderpepper
Member
I like the idea of a more open world Zelda game. Everything else to a lesser degree. I think the player should tackle a set of dungeons in any order and then go to harder dungeons. Sort of like Child dungeons and Adult dungeons in OoT. Also more weirdness and odd themes like in Majora's Mask.
Virtually anybody could make a better Zelda than Aonuma (Majora's Mask is my favorite title in the series, but for the art direction and Termina quests).
The OP is no exception; truly great concepts. The overworld is so important to Zelda, and all the 3D entries with perhaps the exception of Wind Waker fuck it up.
The OP is no exception; truly great concepts. The overworld is so important to Zelda, and all the 3D entries with perhaps the exception of Wind Waker fuck it up.
Andy yet the open world design of the original Zelda had nothing to do with being an experienced player. The "open" joy of that game came primarily from its sense of mystery made possible by the lack of clear genre or franchise precedents.
That stands in contrast to contemporary open world games. They are only open in the sense of offering another sandbox structured around the genre expectations of a certain kind of gamer, who is sure to immediately and even mechanically start identifying objectives, building experience, and gathering necessary items. It ends up more like a chore than anything for me.
Sure, modern Zelda has become a set of polished if somewhat predictable series of puzzles tied together expertly like clockwork, but I still enjoy that (see: Aonuma's remarks on "hospitality"). I'm not sure how best to bring back a sense of mystery to the franchise, yet I would stay far away from the grind that dominates current "open world" franchises. That was never Zelda.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Too bad it was horrible though.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
On a related note, sounds like OP wants The Elder Scrolls. Even Okami isn't like that!
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
Nope.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Remember when they had tutorials in Zelda games, but it was a dungeon?
And pink hair for Link!
And pink hair for Link!
Trickster
Member
And it'll score 95%+ on metacritic, it's got zelda in the title afterall.
butter_stick
Banned
I think the problem at a base level is there's very rarely a sense of danger in modern Zeldas outside of in certain dungeon conditions. The game really needs to make the overworld feel threatening in contrast to the towns and villages. There's no point in the game being open world if it's just empty space to run through.
Personally I feel the journey to getting to dungeons needs to be more of the game. The dungeons should really be, if not removed from the game, greatly reduced in their priority. SS kinda had the right idea in some ways, but the problem is the execution was terrible.
Personally I feel the journey to getting to dungeons needs to be more of the game. The dungeons should really be, if not removed from the game, greatly reduced in their priority. SS kinda had the right idea in some ways, but the problem is the execution was terrible.