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Games with engaging/complex difficulty level changes

cametall

Member
Sin Episodes: Emergence (the only episode of Sin ever made lawl) had dynamic difficulty.

If you were playing too good, getting a lot of headshots, enemies would start wearing helmets. If that didn't stop you from dominating then heavier more powerful enemies would start spawning.

I don't know if the AI changed and got more intelligent, it's been a long time since I played the game.

But I do know when it first came out the dynamic difficulty was borked and the game would slowly adjust its difficulty, "saving" the heavies for later levels. This culminated in having the last few sections populated almost entirely by heavy enemies.

There was even a t-shirt that said, "I beat Sin Emergence before the patch" with a conga line of heavies on it ^.^

I deserved one of those t-shirts
 

Tain

Member
Btw, do you happen to know whether Gradius V did the same thing as the older Gradius games? Thats the one I played the most.

It's been a while since I've played V. I think I remember rank being less noticeable but felt like it was still there.

That guide I linked to earlier says that V still has rank, only unlike older titles, the rank does not decrease when the player dies.
 

tauke

Member
For Max Payne 2, the only changes to the narrative is the ending when playing at the hardest difficulty mode aka Dead on Arrival which has limited saves (plus the usual harder AI).

Although I've yet to play Max Payne 3, I believe the canon ending is the normal/hard difficulty. I remember the game actually adapt to your gameplay on default difficulty (Detective difficulty) where it drops more painkillers and ammo when you struggle in the game and vice versa.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Very nice OP, covers a lot of ground.

Well since you threw in some questions/discussion points to answer...
Okay i'm done.

Thanks to answering all of these! Interesting to hear other, rather exhaustive opinions on that matter.

As you said, not all games fit well for all of the options I mentioned in the OP, but I figured IF your game allows you to do that, changing as many possible factors certainly aren't bad. In my opinion at least, and I wasnt sure whether I was on a wrong thought on that one. Something like "Changing the game too much might repel game fans as its too different from the base game" or whatever.

CTRL+F "Thief" -> No results.

THIS THREAD IS LACKING.

What did Thief do on higher difficulties compared to the lower ones?

Gradius V raises rank and apparently never lowers it on death (unlike the older games).

It's been a while since I've played V. I think I remember rank being less noticeable but felt like it was still there.

That guide I linked to earlier says that V still has rank, only unlike older titles, the rank does not decrease when the player dies.

This idea is so amazing and yet so weird. And I feel even weirder about never noticing that, haha. Easily, the best informational nugget of the thread for me so far! Thanks :) Its also rather interesting that this approach sort of means its a mixture of the subjective and dynamic AI. Interesting balance.
 
I remember getting to Fire Leo on Ultra V-Rated in Viewtiful Joe and having that "shit just got real" moment when the skull markers weren't there.

Perfect Dark is still the best though in this regard, with Silent Hill 3 at a close second.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I remember getting to Fire Leo on Ultra V-Rated in Viewtiful Joe and having that "shit just got real" moment when the skull markers weren't there.

Perfect Dark is still the best though in this regard, with Silent Hill 3 at a close second.

Skull Markers?

Someone explained Perfect Dark already, but what did SH3 do?
For Max Payne 2, the only changes to the narrative is the ending when playing at the hardest difficulty mode aka Dead on Arrival which has limited saves (plus the usual harder AI).

Although I've yet to play Max Payne 3, I believe the canon ending is the normal/hard difficulty. I remember the game actually adapt to your gameplay on default difficulty (Detective difficulty) where it drops more painkillers and ammo when you struggle in the game and vice versa.

Do you happen to remember what changes in the ending? You can spoiler tag it if you dont feel "fine" spoilering the end of a game. I only played it on normal.
 

jett

D-Member
Metal Gear Solid 2!

250px-Metalgear2boxart.jpg


Bosses gain entirely new patterns and attacks on the Extreme difficulty level. This, unfortunately, wasn't done for MGS3 and MGS4.
 

Ainaurdur

Member
Toma, you have also reminded me that I still never got my own copies of Gradius IV and V. Something I will have to look out for soon.
 

tauke

Member
Do you happen to remember what changes in the ending? You can spoiler tag it if you dont feel "fine" spoilering the end of a game. I only played it on normal.

The default ending has Mona Sax died after the final boss battle where else the Dead on Arrival ending has her survive the gunshot by the final boss (Vladimir Lem). The new ending scene has new comic panel strip complete with voiceover too instead of an afterthought bonus scene.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
The default ending has Mona Sax died after the final boss battle where else the Dead on Arrival ending has her survive the gunshot by the final boss (Vladimir Lem). The new ending scene has new comic panel strip complete with voiceover too instead of an afterthought bonus scene.

Ah, that is neat.
 

Celegus

Member
Skull Markers?

In Viewtiful Joe, there would be a small marker showing you where an enemy attack was going to land. This would let you decide whether you needed to duck the attack, do an upward dodge, or simply run away. On the highest difficulty (or playing as Captain Blue), the markers were gone so you had to rely on memory, attack patterns, and tells to know how to avoid the attack. Fire Leo was a jerk, but fighting several of the Metal Leos at once on the last level was probably the hardest part of Ultra-V.
 
Skull Markers?

Someone explained Perfect Dark already, but what did SH3 do?

The puzzle themselves became more intricate and difficult. That shit was nuts. I believe the game was actually darker too, but that may have been the stress of puzzle solving and whatnot lol
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Another Difficulty setting/level element I havent mentioned in the OP that some people might not be aware of is the speed setting in racing games. A game like Mario Kart uses cups with different speeds for the karts, that effectively serve as the different difficulty settings without needing to call them that way. Interesting how games can hide that.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Interesting thread idea. When you really boil it all down, I prefer difficulty progression in a game where two things happen:

1. higher difficulty results in greater loot, treasure, score (more reward for the higher risk)

and

2. higher difficulty is more challenging in a skill based fashion (not random bad luck or cheese) and can be surmounted by increasing skill and playing better


For me, those two things need to happen in order for a game to keep my attention with regard to increasing difficulty. Some examples of games that do this well:

Galactic Civ II - playing on higher levels nets you better scores, and the enemy AI increases with skill. But the AI doesn't get harder by cheating, it really truly plays the game better. GC2 is a game where the AI sometimes astounds me at how conniving, skillful, and almost human like the AI can be. I wish more 4X and strategy games in general had AI done as well as GC2.

Diablo II - the best loot game of all time. Even better than Diablo III, at least with regard to skill levels vs. reward. In D2, as your character progresses to new areas and higher difficulty levels, you encounter better and better loot to make you stronger, but the enemies you face also increase in both health and abilities. This game is the model for all loot games by default for good reason, even 12 years after it's release.

Minecraft - as simple as the game is from a mechanics standpoint, upping the difficulty level changes subtle things that make the game more fun IMHO. Zombies can knock doors down, monsters do more damage (which greatly increase the risk and atmosphere of the game, especially when spelunking), starvation becomes a real threat, food and armor become more important. This is a game where the only reward for upping the difficulty is a more engrossing and interactive gameplay experience. I think a lot of games try to have higher skill levels translate into a better gaming experience, but many fall short. Somehow, Minecraft pulls it off for me so well that I will only play on Hard setting. The game is just more fun that way.

Audiosurf - this game's difficulty level system appeals to the good old arcade initials ploy: playing on harder skill modes gets you a better score, period. And when you are competing against other people for the highest score, you make the effort to learn the game's harder modes in order to dethrone other champions. The multiplayer score system is the real incentive here, and is what keeps hundreds of thousands of people playing this game on the hardest modes every day.
 

massoluk

Banned
Kid Icarus: Uprising did it right.

You will finish your game, and you will challenge it at the level of your competency. But if you want to be the masochist, you can increase difficulty, but only if you have proven yourself (got enough heart from playing).
 

rdaneel72

Member
6. Adding Game Content

Resident Evil 4 - Adding Level areas and puzzles

These are the examples that inspired me to do this thread, and search for more games like it. Resident Evil 4 has entire level areas that are hidden from you on the lower difficulty settings. That was an amazing surprise that blew me away, when I discovered something I had not seen before in a game I considered beaten and properly well known by me.

WHAT?!?!? Haven't played RE4 in a while, but this is the first time I've ever heard of this. Can someone elaborate on where these areas are?
 

eot

Banned
I think Mass Effect 2 had good higher difficulty settings.
On the medium difficulties only the 'champion' enemies had shields / barrier / armor, but if you cranked it up to Hardcore or Insanity every enemy in the game had those. What's different in ME2 compared to the other two games is that those protection layers negate certain powers almost completely. Doing well on Insanity, especially as an Adept, means always picking the right squad members, being really smart about when and how you use your powers and also how you level up your character and your party. It forces you to explore and exploit the combat system to its fullest (including using the pause a lot) instead of making it about twitch skills.

I guess the downside to that is that if you never play on those difficulty settings, or just get frustrated by them, then you never see what the combat system has to offer. The game doesn't teach it to you very well and it never forces you to learn it unless you actively seek it out.
 

Dommo

Member
What did Thief do on higher difficulties compared to the lower ones?

Many of the games you've listed above do what Thief do, but I think Thief was one of the first. It's got a whole lot more objectives to complete when playing on harder difficulties. One of the general additions is on Hard you would always need to not only complete the main objective but also escape the scene of the crime. To further your worries, on Expert, you wouldn't be allowed to kill anyone. Furthermore, you would be required to collect an increasing amount of gold as you raised the difficulty.

But it also came with entirely new objectives to complete as well. There would always be one or two other secondary objectives you needed to complete to succeed the mission. The AI also got a lot better.

Thief on Expert was an incredible and rewarding experience as a result.
 

Thraktor

Member
Another great thing about the way Perfect Dark handles difficulty is the different choices of bots in multiplayer (which are called sims in PD). As well as the expected options, like EasySims, NormalSims, HardSims, etc., there were sims with particular behaviours. The VengeSim, for example, always goes after the last player who killed it. The FistSim only ever punches, and soforth. There's also a DarkSim, which actually cheats, by moving faster than the player can, having greater weapon accuracy, etc. Makes things a bit more interesting than the standard difficulty levels for bots.
 

drspeedy

Member
I have to admit, the OP is just full of amazing (needs pictures or screen caps, tho).

But my biggest rub is rubber banding- I'll take the pain that comes with "you CHOSE harder, wimp!" but the whole "first place? Yeah, blue shell!" stuff is infuriatingly unnecessary.


Also terribad: JRPG's that add attacks or protections for bosses based on your skills. Aghghgh! I'm level 80, you can't reflect every wind spell!
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I have to admit, the OP is just full of amazing (needs pictures or screen caps, tho).

But my biggest rub is rubber banding- I'll take the pain that comes with "you CHOSE harder, wimp!" but the whole "first place? Yeah, blue shell!" stuff is infuriatingly unnecessary.


Also terribad: JRPG's that add attacks or protections for bosses based on your skills. Aghghgh! I'm level 80, you can't reflect every wind spell!

Yeah, sorry. Writing that up took me about 7-8 hours. I was thinking to add pictures initially, but considering you dont even see any pictures in the thread to elaborate on these differences, you can imagine how time intensive it might be to get representative pictures to show off these differences. If anyone feels like digging some up, or making them himself, feel free to post them though.

Thanks for the nice words on my OP though :) I also think this is a hugely interesting topic.

WHAT?!?!? Haven't played RE4 in a while, but this is the first time I've ever heard of this. Can someone elaborate on where these areas are?

Keep this thread at hand. I'll prepare a bigger post on RE 4 where I'll try to elaborate on these elements with pictures. Wouldnt be surprised if people might like that more than the initial OP if I get it to look somewhat decent. Wanted to do it today, but after writing so much yesterday (and writing on my PC for work) I didnt feel like putting another few hours into that today.
 

rdaneel72

Member
Keep this thread at hand. I'll prepare a bigger post on RE 4 where I'll try to elaborate on these elements with pictures. Wouldnt be surprised if people might like that more than the initial OP if I get it to look somewhat decent. Wanted to do it today, but after writing so much yesterday (and writing on my PC for work) I didnt feel like putting another few hours into that today.


That would be great. Thanks, man. I look forward to it.
 
Might not be the best example, OP, but I am fond of the creativity behind Resident Evil REMAKE's difficult choice:

tumblr_m9de76cusM1rxouxno1_500.gif



The difference was pretty noticable to me.
Less ammo, less healing, more aggressive creatures, etc.

I just like the thought put into more than simply: Casual, Normal, Hard, EXTREME. :)
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Might not be the best example, OP, but I am fond of the creativity behind Resident Evil REMAKE's difficult choice:

tumblr_m9de76cusM1rxouxno1_500.gif



The difference was pretty noticable to me.
Less ammo, less healing, more aggressive creatures, etc.

I just like the thought put into more than simply: Casual, Normal, Hard, EXTREME. :)

Yeah, I considered making that a sub topic of this thread too but felt like the OP would be too bloated (already contains a lot of stuff). Feel free to post cool/creative difficulty names though. Dont think that would fit other threads too well anyway and it helps to keep this thread a bit afloat.

Edit: Lets consider it important to this thread because it also affects the enjoyment people take from the added difficulty settings! ;p
 

DSix

Banned
How do difficulty levels affect the replay value for you?
Only if I really enjoyed the gameplay on the first playthrough, so much that I want more.

Do you care at all if games offer higher difficulty levels?
I prefer short games that offer replay values via new game+/harder difficulties than games that are just plain too long. So, yes, I care very much.


Which developers put a lot of effort into creating replay value through complex changes on a higher difficulty level? (Game examples please)
-The Kingdom Hearts series is doing it very well. Though, I think the difficulties only really change enemy damages and HPs. But it works, as if the higher difficulty was the one they made the game first with (and the game is awesome as such).
-Goldeneye/Perfect Dark (and TS2) are a different example of awesome difficulty settings, many people already covered it so you know what I mean.
-F-zero GX each mode has several difficulty settings. For the leagues it's the enemy AI that's faster, and for the missions it's the required tasks and timers that get more tight (to the point of utter impossibility might I say). For a racing game as awesome and fast as GX it works wonder. Makes you literally sweat when you're so close to winning and any mistake will cast your doom.
-Zelda NES second quest. Keeping the overworld, but changing the positions and layout of every dongeons, with a much harder difficulty on top (things are harder to find, enemies are stronger). It's not a new game, but it sure feels like one, and that's awesome.


Which approaches to how higher/lower difficulty levels are handled are annoying to you?
Lazy difficulties with just more health for enemies that don't fit with the core game. This is particularly infuriating in shooters when headshots don't kill anymore.

Any elements you would like to see, but havent yet?
Not really, everything has been done, so to speak.

Would including all of the approaches (if applicable) always make for a more enjoyable higher difficulty?
Well, yes. Having a good balance between enemy damage/better IA/encounter setups/life balancing is way better than just doing one of these options (but it can depend, really).
I'd like to see more Master/Second Quests in video games too, reusing the same content to make what feels like a second new adventure.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Reading the replies to the questions I put up, I am starting to think whether there are any reasons at all NOT to pick all of those elements for higher difficulty settings (if applicable AND if monetary concerns are no issue).

I remember one example about how dynamic difficulty might effect the player in a negative way for example if the player starts feeling domineered by the game. I certainly remember feeling that way when God of War automatically pushed down the difficulty for me without me wanting that. That might be more of an issue of visibility though. I just read that Resident Evil 4 apparently did the same and slid down the difficulty for an encounter you might be having problems with. I simply never noticed and therefore never cared, as opposed to the GoW example. Is it then wrong to tell the player about what the game actually does? Is the Resident Evil 4 approach always the better one? Why didnt they do it in GoW then if people should realize that this is universally better.

Game design is really a tricky topic with lots of pitfalls that only become visible on second look. Interesting as hell though.
 

GabDX

Banned
I would love to read the OP but the lines of text are way too long, making them a pain to read. Resizing the window doesn't help because of the banner.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I would love to read the OP but the lines of text are way too long, making them a pain to read. Resizing the window doesn't help because of the banner.

Thanks for mentioning that, you are completely right. I added manual line breaks to the sentences, making the lines about 1/3 shorter. I hope that increased the readability.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Interesting thread idea. When you really boil it all down, I prefer difficulty progression in a game where two things happen:

1. higher difficulty results in greater loot, treasure, score (more reward for the higher risk)

and

2. higher difficulty is more challenging in a skill based fashion (not random bad luck or cheese) and can be surmounted by increasing skill and playing better


For me, those two things need to happen in order for a game to keep my attention with regard to increasing difficulty. Some examples of games that do this well:

Galactic Civ II -

Diablo II

Minecraft

Audiosurf

Great examples and explanation for all of those btw. Definitely a reason I kept playing those games as long as I did.
 

Sentenza

Member
What did Thief do on higher difficulties compared to the lower ones?
Well, it did...

Many of the games you've listed above do what Thief do, but I think Thief was one of the first. It's got a whole lot more objectives to complete when playing on harder difficulties. One of the general additions is on Hard you would always need to not only complete the main objective but also escape the scene of the crime. To further your worries, on Expert, you wouldn't be allowed to kill anyone. Furthermore, you would be required to collect an increasing amount of gold as you raised the difficulty.

But it also came with entirely new objectives to complete as well. There would always be one or two other secondary objectives you needed to complete to succeed the mission. The AI also got a lot better.

Thief on Expert was an incredible and rewarding experience as a result.
Yeah, this.
It also limited the max number of NPCs you were allowed to knock out.

The *best* way to handle a difficulty setting I can remember of.
Thief played on the hardest setting wasn't just way more challenging. It was also a lot more fun, varied and rewarding.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Apparently its a bit tricky to get proper screenshots from an LCD TV (yeah..) and I ordered a cheap PC version to make some proper testing for the Resident Evil 4 post. I know that version is rather crappy, but ah well. Guess then I really own it on every platform it has been released on (except that even crappier mobile version, hmmm).

I tried looking for screenshots and some exact information on the stuff I wanted to look up, but to no avail. Searching for very specific screenshot is really tricky. Anyway, even though this thread may die, I'll report back! :)
 
Apparently its a bit tricky to get proper screenshots from an LCD TV (yeah..) and I ordered a cheap PC version to make some proper testing for the Resident Evil 4 post. I know that version is rather crappy, but ah well. Guess then I really own it on every platform it has been released on (except that even crappier mobile version, hmmm).

I tried looking for screenshots and some exact information on the stuff I wanted to look up, but to no avail. Searching for very specific screenshot is really tricky. Anyway, even though this thread may die, I'll report back! :)

Why not emulate the Wii or Gamecube version? You dont like emulators? I wouldn't blame you if you cant stand their inadequacies but it would have been way easer than buying a new version of the game.

Anyway, I cant wait for your post regarding this, I didnt know that new areas opened in hard mode.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
250px-The_World_Ends_With_You.jpg


The best difficulty system is the kind that encourages to play the harder one, but doesn't force. Imo, the style of difficulty change is completely dependent on what kind of game it is, so it's hard to argue which kind is 'better'.

The difficulty features in this game definitely blew me away. I was constantly tinkering with it.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Why not emulate the Wii or Gamecube version? You dont like emulators? I wouldn't blame you if you cant stand their inadequacies but it would have been way easer than buying a new version of the game.

Anyway, I cant wait for your post regarding this, I didnt know that new areas opened in hard mode.

Ah damn, smart guy. Wasnt thinking of that. Guess I can cancel that Amazon order :p I'll try emulating it, thanks. And those areas might not be accessible on easy, but on normal. I think there was something with hard too, though. Its been a while. Anyway, I'll try all of that again.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Well, unfortunately, it was too late to cancel that Amazon order, but whatever! I now can even report about the horridness of this port, before I get to the (hopeful) interesting parts.

I just wanted to share these initial impressions, just to... get rid of them. Where to start, where to start...

First of all, game only has 2 standard resolutions in full screen mode:
800*600
1024*768
where, probably for the better, the rest of the screen is simply blacked out. Stretching this would probably look like a horrible, horrible mess. Anyway, there is a 1280*800 widescreen option, but only in window mode. Hooray! Whatever the reasoning for that is.

The PC version has PC mouse control, and I want to treat you to whatever someone thought was good enough to be included in a game (first part is keyboard controls, you'll notice the switch):

http://www.twitch.tv/tomalexi/b/333361108 (Yes I linked it on my steam account)

Adding insult to injury, in windowed mode (the only mode that allows 1280*800) the mouse isnt bound to the window, so you can aim, look too far to a side, click and then the game loses its focus since you clicked on a windows folder!(After which the character goes on to die) Great stuff right there whoever was porting this.

Other than that, the game looks very, very, very bad vanilla right after the install. Fortunately, someone took the time to make a texture pack that makes the game way more pleasing to the eye:
Even the menus look horribly blurred since no new assets have been used:

I spare you actual menu pictures like the one on the starting screen. I also crosschecked with the HD PS3 version, but apparently the PC mod is user made content, not something the developers provided. As you can see in the inhouse picture, the base texture is actually completely different. Another weird thing I noticed, the PS3 version uses some new textures (as the ground one in the first picture), but leaves others as they were (as the inhouse stuff). Weird they had high res versions for some textures but not for all.

So yeah, off to a great start! Going to work on something more relevant to this thread in the next few days, starting with how raising the HP effects the enemies/encounters in this game. Might do a few comparison videos via the streams since that seems to work well, lets see.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Weird. I could have sworn I'd made a post about Thief in this thread. Glad to see others did it for me. Superb game, and it does difficulty extremely well. I really need to beat it.
 
TLjfe.jpg


8. Dynamic Difficulty
Left4Dead - AI Director
Mario Kart - Rubberbanding

Genre where you might encounter that more often: Racing Games

I encourage you to read this great article about this issue, from which I took these examples from. What it basically boils
down to, is that the game gets harder or easier based on the players performance. One of the most annoying
instances we find this in, are racing games and the rubber banding AI. You are having the best race of your life,
and the others still cling to your heels. I can't stand that at all. A better example would be Left4Deads AI director
which changes the difficulty on the fly, allowing to drop in enemies when it notices that you are having an easy
time with the game. Apparently that very same director even changes the music to what it has in store for you.
Now as the last sentence for this short overview, let me blow your mind by stating the example they used in the
link above. One of the hardest to integrate difficulty adjustment measures in Videogames (Dynamic Difficulty) is an
old trick in games of the "real" world. Pocket Billards actual has a dynamic difficulty. The more balls your enemy
pockets in, the better are your chances to hit your own balls on your next shot.
:-o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember one of the developers at Remedy telling me once that Max Payne 1 and 2 had dynamic difficulty. The enemy AI would adjust itself to match how good or bad the player was doing in the game. Though I never actually noticed this myself while playing both games. But apparently, both games do have it.
 
A lot of people complain about Blood Money's save system, but it makes for interesting difficulty settings. Your saves are limited within a mission, so you'd have to be strategic about when and where you saved. This limit would go down with higher difficulty up to Professional, where you'd have to complete the mission without saving.
 

OmegaZero

Member
Ninja Gaiden ups the enemy AI and changes the encounters.
Some bosses get new moves or are even swapped out for tougher ones.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
On another note: I really enjoy the Dog tag hunting in MGS2, part of that was that the game added soldiers to locations where you didnt need to be just to get through the game. Sort of like how achievement can add additional incentives to play the games in ways you havent done so yet by adding new content.

The more I think about the more I like the way Project Dark/Goldeneye approached this issue. I wish there were more games that did that.
 

Thraktor

Member
On another note: I really enjoy the Dog tag hunting in MGS2, part of that was that the game added soldiers to locations where you didnt need to be just to get through the game. Sort of like how achievement can add additional incentives to play the games in ways you havent done so yet by adding new content.

The more I think about the more I like the way Project Dark/Goldeneye approached this issue. I wish there were more games that did that.

I think the reason it isn't more common is simply a matter of cost. A significant majority of people just play through games on normal difficulty, and publishers don't want to pay for content that only a small fraction of players experience. It's a shame, but it's one of those ugly side effects of the explosion of game development costs we've seen this gen.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Alright, lets get to it.

Resident Evil 4 Difficulty Settings Analysis: Part 1 - Changing simple stats

I. General talk:
As I already stated in the OP, the best and most common example for this is a simple health or damage increase of the enemies. Vice Versa you could also see the enemy health increase as player damage decrease and the enemy damage increase as a player HP decrease. This is pretty synonymous, but the actual game/UI setup might still tend to get the player to think its one way or the other. For simplicities sake(though completely taken out of my ass), lets just assume that the starting amount of max Healthpoints (green bar to the left) is 100HP, so that it can be divided into 5 bars of 20HP each:
u1Epa.png

The problem with "RAISE STATS TO MAKE IT HARDER"-approach is that its very easy to get the player to feel bored by this task, instead of providing an additional challenge. Imagine an RPG with a boss that requires you to do 3 things alternatingly in 3 turns.

1st turn - Cast Elemental Resistance
2nd turn - Attack Enemy
3rd turn - Heal

Now doing that for 50 times instead of 10 is neither original, nor fun. Other genres fall into the same trap of repetitive tediousness rather easily as well. However, changing the balance of power in a game definitely IS a pretty powerful tool if applied properly. So how does RE4 handle this issue?

II. The Test Subject
Before talking about how RE4 approaches this and how it effects the player, lets get some stats first. I only have the starting savegame atm, so further testing might need to be done later, but I am pretty sure it should be at least somewhat representative. Lets all greet our test subject:
zjqHT.jpg


Be nice to him. He is the first enemy you meet ingame, and I am going to kill him again, and again, and again to get some data on how the games base stats change depending on the difficulty. I also killed the enemies that spawn right after this first encounter quite often. After a bit of testing, its very clear that they all are the same "type" of zombie and dont differ in damage or health from each other, so I used them for testing purposes too.

III. The Data & Discussion
Damage to the player (from 100HP):
Code:
             Easy | Normal | Hard
Axe Attacks    5       5       3
HP Damage     21      24      45
%DMG          87,5%  100%    187,5%

This is pretty straight forward. From this one enemy, the player can take up to 5 axe attacks, depending on the difficulty before dying. The HP numbers are completely made up, but somewhat representative of the damage the player is receiving from his 100 start HP. I based them on the % that was chipped away from the life bar, under the assumption that all the enemies attacks were completely identical. I ran the test about 25 times and always got the same amount of life taken away. This has not changed in either difficulty. The amount of damage an enemy is dealing is static for that current difficulty setting, probably to allow the player to judge correctly whether he might be able to survive one more hit or not, which makes this an immediately fairer game, as the enemies cant "randomly" kill you. Despite all odds, if you are always aware of the surroundings, you can always know what damage to expect and whether you should take that healing item now or not.
As you can see from the table, this means that the damage rises ~12,5% from easy to normal and a staggering ~87,5% from normal to hard. This might raise a few eyebrows as 12,5% dont really sound like anything to make a game much "easier". I'll assume that other aspects of the difficulty setting are more pronounced in the differentiation of easy to normal, than normal to hard to make up for that. I'll get back to this question later. (Highlighted to remind me)

Damage by the player:
Now this was a bit trickier, as I dont see any life bar of the enemies and therefore cant put up damage estimations. I settled on shooting at the different hit zones the enemies have (arm, leg, body, head) and counted how many times it took to actually kill the enemy. I then did the same for all combinations I could up with, including extra attacks like the kick and the knife attack, giving rough (very rough) estimates how these attacks are in relation to each other powerwise. This has been done ~100 times and I also noticed that the attacks by the player dont have any damage fluctuation. He'll always need 3 shots to the body to kill this enemy on normal. There is one exception: Critical hits. Those are rather rare (estimation based on the amount I encountered: 5%), which will immediately kill the enemy. The following numbers are the amount of attacks needed to kill those first enemies (Everything non-kick and non-knife is a pistol shot):
Code:
             Easy | Normal | Hard
Body           3      3      4
Legs           3      3      4
Arms           3      3      4
Head           2      2      4
Head+Body     1+1    1+2    1+3
Head+Kick     1+1    1+1    3+1
Knife          2      2      3
Knife+Body    1+1    1+2    2+2
Knife+Head    1+1    1+1    2+2
Knife+Kick    1+1    1+1    2+1

In addition to the rising damage of the enemies, the amount of damage the player does is severely cut down (or the enemy HP going up), as you can see from this elusive mess of numbers. However, there are a few other things I noticed.

A few findings in bullet point form for improved readability:
- Body, leg and arm are identical hitzones damage wise throughout all the difficulty settings, despite having differing "effects" (head shot allows Kick, leg shot lets the opponent tumble, arm shot disarms the enemy)
- Hitting the head ONLY does more damage than hitting other body parts on easy and normal. Headshots damage = Other body shot damage on hard.
- Knife attacks do not have hitzones on normal enemies, Knife to the head is exactly as effective as Knife to any other body part
- Damage ranking: Body Shot < Head Shot < Kick < Knife (with the aforementioned exception of Headshots=Bodyshots on hard)
- Normal difficulty is way closer to Easy difficulty than Hard when it comes to how much damage is being dealt to the enemy, restating the earlier assumption that Easy->Normal might have other aspects/more changes than Normal->Hard (still needs to be tested)
- Static damage (with the exception of Critical hits), meaning no percentage of fluctuating damage each shot

When he was lying on the ground, I had the habit to to knife him in the head due to pure speculation that this must do more damage. Wrong. I even learned something practical from this statistical Odyssey :p

IV. Final Thoughts
To summarize, we have the most basic of all difficulty changes here too of course - Enemy damage + Enemy HP increase. Additionally, the overall changes in this game are far from a simple stat change. As I mentioned already before, these changes will NOT lead to the player doing the same thing over and over again, but this is hard to prove without looking at the other aspects that need to be considered here as item placement, enemy behaviour, enemy count, etcetc.
However one concrete example I can give from the issue at hand: this game even changes a core aspect of a playthrough on normal just by the "simple stat" change alone - The reliance of headshots doing massive damage. On normal you always try to shoot the head first, and ask questions (or distribute kicks) later. If headshots dont do any more damage on hard than a normal body shot, it might even be advisable NOT to go for the risky headshot (wasting ammunition if not hit), but also to consider other hit zones like legs that immobilize the opponent for a short bit instead. Last note about this: Please keep in mind that the numbers provided are only tested myself but not "official" numbers and still might be a bit off. Since there is no random element involved in any part of this, I feel pretty good about the findings though.
I hope this was somewhat interesting to read, and I look forward to taking a closer look at the other aspects as well :) No clue how long it will take, but ah well.
 

InertiaXr

Member
Interesting thread idea. When you really boil it all down, I prefer difficulty progression in a game where two things happen:

1. higher difficulty results in greater loot, treasure, score (more reward for the higher risk)

and

2. higher difficulty is more challenging in a skill based fashion (not random bad luck or cheese) and can be surmounted by increasing skill and playing better

This is my biggest problem with Torchlight 2, I played about half of it on Veteran and having very little gold and very few pots the whole time, figuring this was the trade-off from normal for getting the better drops on Veteran. Then I read presumably in the OT this isn't true, and loot drops are all the same on every difficulty?? So there is no advantage to playing on Veteran? You get the same exact rewards yet all the enemies hit harder and have more HP. Really dumb IMO.

Anyways, bump as requested of me by Toma.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
This is my biggest problem with Torchlight 2, I played about half of it on Veteran and having very little gold and very few pots the whole time, figuring this was the trade-off from normal for getting the better drops on Veteran. Then I read presumably in the OT this isn't true, and loot drops are all the same on every difficulty?? So there is no advantage to playing on Veteran? You get the same exact rewards yet all the enemies hit harder and have more HP. Really dumb IMO.

Yeah, that is really stupid. Its basically the opposite of what the higher difficulties should offer. They didnt manage to give any kind of satisfaction or reward for playing the higher difficulties. Its really a great example how this should not be done.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Perfect Dark

250px-Perfect_dark_box.jpg


It's almost a new game when playing on perfect agent difficulty.

Yeah, quite a few mentioned that in this thread. Too bad Perfect Dark Zero is only on 360. Did it do similar things or did they left that out in the 360 prequel?
 

The Hermit

Member
Goldeneye deserves a mention here. At the time it was amazing that harder difficulty levels included things like added objectives, and not just bullet-sponge enemies. In fact, I think it contained almost all of the factors listed in the OP, barring dynamic difficulty.

I though about 007 Goldeneye the moment I read the topic. I never cared about harder dificulties since they were the same game I played on normal but more annoying/stressing.... until Goldeneye.
Adding more objectives each dificulty triplicates the content of the game. Also it unlocked a new stage every dificulty you played, so basically you had to play all 3 dificulties to properlly finish the game.

Later a played Diablo 2 which is basically the same idea, each dificulty its his own game.

An older game that did that was castle of Ilusion, on easy there were just 3 stages and no final boss, in normal and up you had the full game.
 
You couldn't play all levels in Painkiller if you didn't play it on the hardest setting.

Enemies in Crysis will speak Korean rather than English on the highest difficulty.

Most games I'll play once on medium/hard so I have no idea if stuff changes in other difficulties.
 
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