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Steam axes submission process, ALL new pubs/devs must go through Steam Greenlight.

Interfectum

Member
To me this sounds more like instead of going through 2 different channels pubs/devs only have to submit their game to Greenlight which combines both i.e. letting Valve pick games themselves or those that were voted by the community.

I could be completely wrong though.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Valve can/will pick up certain games in Greenlight regardless of votes.
 

Aeana

Member
I share your sentiment about not really caring to check Greenlight for interesting games, but I don't think I understand how one could be unhappy about missing out on title they might enjoy because the people who do obsessively check Greenlight didin't vote for it.

The way I'm reading what you're saying is like this (as an example): "I don't like the last game that got greenlight, but I didin't care enough to go and vote for anything I would've wanted to see greenlit instead either."
No, the thing I don't care to do is wade through the vast Greenlight selection to find stuff that I might be interested in. I don't have time to do that. There are way too many games, and the number will be increasing rapidly now. And unless I go through EVERYTHING available, then something is likely to be overlooked. I don't want to take on the job of choosing games to put on Steam, I just want to play games. Of course I'd vote on something if it was brought to my attention, but I'm certainly not going to go to Greenlight daily to search for new interesting things. I just don't have the time or dedication for that.
 

dani_dc

Member
To me this sounds more like instead of going through 2 different channels pubs/devs only have to submit their game to Greenlight which combines both i.e. letting Valve pick games themselves or those that were voted by the community.

I could be completely wrong though.

That would be a decent solution, as I said, essencially replacing the email channel by Greenlight pages. In pratice that doesn't seem to be happening, only the popular games voted by the community have been aproved so far. Which is why this is a big issue.
Admittedly it's still pretty early into the service, but Valve has given us no indication that they hand pick games on Greenlight, so it's a fair critic at this point of time
 

Glass Rebel

Member
Yeah. I'm pretty sure Valve can/will pick up certain games in Greenlight regardless of votes.

I mean, they did say in the first FAQ that you don't have to hit the necessary votes to get greenlit. If someone at Valve decides that they want your game, they'll release it.

That would be a decent solution, as I said, essencially replacing the email channel by Greenlight pages. In pratice that doesn't seem to be happening, only the popular games voted by the community have been aproved so far. Which is why this is a big issue.

Yeah, that is problematic, no doubt, but we might see this change as soon as they've completely moved over to the new system.
 

Ranger X

Member
Wow, what a shit decision

This completely kills the purpose of Greenlight. (that was to diminish the risk of publishing smaller and more obscure games. Indie games too.)
 

Lancehead

Member
It would be prudent to step back and think about who "consumers" are in this case. The people going through all of the games at Greenlight don't represent a very wide audience, and frankly, you won't get an audience representative of the purchasing consumers on Greenlight no matter what you do, unless you start paying people for votes.

That's still much better than Valve employees making that decision for that "very wide audience".

There are problems with Greelight that need to be solved to achieve (or get as close as possible to) direct creator-consumer interaction. Current traditional approval process is only required to "keep the lights on".
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
If they made Greenlight more user-friendly this would be okay with me.

They added Greenlight Concepts, but I don't see how that helped at all. There really needs to be a way to filter all the unfinished and incomplete games out and just see stuff that's ready to be released. That would be a good start and make it a lot easier to browse.

And preferably, only choose from that pool of finished games. It's ridiculous that incomplete games that might never be released are Greenlit over quality games that could be put on the service very soon.

Going back and making it more transparent would also help. People didn't understand the data so Valve just took it away. With no transparency, it's hard to be interested in voting for games when you have no idea how anything is doing.
 
Was going to complain about this but if Valve can pick out games they like independently of the 'democratic' process, I think that's fine. The idea of Greenlight is fine but I don't want the gaming community to choose all of what ends up on Steam, because sometimes they are dumb. Valve needs to pick out stuff they think is interesting and put it forward even if it's not getting the votes.
 
I don't know why some people are just instantly equating greenlight with shit and assuming it will always be the same. It's always iterative, it will always be changing and growing and evolving into whatever it needs to be, just like every other valve product that has a long life ever has been. It will be very different in the future, don't just write it off because you didn't like it in the past, or you don't like it now.
 

Corto

Member
I tend to distrust crowd curating processes. If it succeeds even better, if it fails spectacularly I will morbidly enjoy to watch the aftermath.
 

DSix

Banned
-the notion that indie game developers increasingly need to also be indie game marketers

Okay now, what the fuck with that stupid dumb statement?!
I want to discover great new indie games on steam. I don't give a single fuck if the developer is good at marketing and manipulating people. If the game is great that's all that matters, once it's on steam people will notice the game, it will sell, and that'll be another successful indie living off a good game. Tell me, TELL ME what would be wrong with this picture Valve? I fucking dare you.

Evaluating games by solely their marketing is one of the worst possible way of doing it. ESPECIALLY for indies, who are the most vulnerable in that area.



PS: to the guy who didn't get it (two posts under), I know the quote is from the podcast with valve. And besides, this quote is exactly what they're saying by going GreenLight only from now on. My point stands.
 

xelios

Universal Access can be found under System Preferences
I don't believe for a moment that Valve will leave what makes it onto Steam 100% up to Greenlight voters, so I have mixed feelings. I guess we will see what happens, but I have a feeling there will be some major adjustments to how the system works and we will still see games making it onto Steam regardless of their votes or popularity in the Greenlight system. I'm not going to freak out until I see a major halt in releases and so far I haven't been able to keep up with the rate at which they're coming.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
Okay now, what the fuck is that stupid dumb statement?!
I want to discover great new indie games on steam. I don't give a single fuck if the developer is good at marketing and manipulating people. If the game is great that's all that matters, once it's on steam people will notice the game, it will sell, and that'll be another successful indie living off a good game. Tell me what's fucking wrong with this picture Valve?

Evaluating games by solely their marketing is one of the worst possible way of doing it. ESPECIALLY for indies, who are the most vulnerable in that area.

Quoting this for future generations to marvel at the incredible jumping-to-conclusion and reading comprehension skills.
 

Margalis

Banned
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Some excellent games may not have a crazy social networking fanbase paving the way on Greenlight.

This sort of stuff also encourages things like vote trading and weird emergent politics.

To me it doesn't make sense to have Joe Public evaluate games well before release. Some concepts are hard to communicate and this sort of stuff really favors games that have some obvious hook or are in a well-trodden genre than games that don't reveal how fun they are without playing them.

The same is true of Kickstarter to some degree, the games that do well there are mostly retrograde nostalgia plays.

It's also just kind of depressing that it's getting to the point where to be a successful indie game dev you have to be a promoter/marketer first and a game maker second. I get at some point to be successful you need some buzz but we're quickly reaching the stage where if you are making a game you're going to be spending much of your time making cloying videos, updating websites, lobbying for votes in social media, etc, even in the very early stages of the project. It also encourages over-promising.

Edit: Looking at the list of greenlit games I see a lot of Zombie games and Minecraft clones. Same shit as what's popular on XBL Indies. I really don't want troglodytes who only vote up games because they seem exactly like games they've already played determining what's on Steam.

There are lots of awesome things the public doesn't know it wants until it gets it, and if you ask people what they want they'll most likely riff on whatever is hot.
 

Salsa

Member
This thread is weird. This has been the norm for new devs and publishers since like... July, and many games still came out bypassing greenlight. The only news here is that wadjeteye was told to go through it for some reason
 

Rubius

Member
No, the thing I don't care to do is wade through the vast Greenlight selection to find stuff that I might be interested in. I don't have time to do that. There are way too many games, and the number will be increasing rapidly now. And unless I go through EVERYTHING available, then something is likely to be overlooked. I don't want to take on the job of choosing games to put on Steam, I just want to play games. Of course I'd vote on something if it was brought to my attention, but I'm certainly not going to go to Greenlight daily to search for new interesting things. I just don't have the time or dedication for that.

I have no Greenlight games to right right now. I rated 941 games, which is all of the Greenlight Library. I just make a queue, and say Yes or No and then next.
It take about 3 minutes to go through a queue of 9 games.
ErJqf.jpg
 
Just give up and hire some curators ffs.

They have 20-30 fulltime people who do this. Clearly it's not enough and they need to do something differently.

Hopefully this is only the first step in making Greenlight a proper community feature rather than a stack of cards you click through like some kind of chore.

I have no Greenlight games to right right now. I rated 941 games, which is all of the Greenlight Library. I just make a queue, and say Yes or No and then next.
It take about 3 minutes to go through a queue of 9 games.

Even though it's quick, it's not very compelling. You never know if your votes are making a difference until some months later when maybe some of your choices get greenlit while everything else sits in a static 'stuff you've voted for' page. It's not half as exciting as, say, watching a kickstarter get close to its goals, and given the screenshots earlier, Valve isn't doing a very good job telling developers how far along they are in the process. Greenlight needs a ton of work to make it exciting and prominent. I note that they've already made some changes recently like give you a more prominent running total of games you've voted for and just barely pushing greenlight stuff above the fold in the store. They can do more.
 

Salsa

Member
Before: unknown dev with new game tries to publish on Steam, can't because valve doesn't see enough buzz about it. Dev has no money nor knowledge on how to market, end of story.

Now: unknown dev with new game tries to publish on Steam, can't because valve says it's a new dev/pub so they don't know if it's what people want. It's told to go through greenlight, thus giving it an opportunity beyond simple rejection

"downside": apparently some already known devs with successful games are told to still go through greenlight, where due to their already built fan base would have to barely make an effort to achieve publishing


OUTRAGE


the problem here is that people are reading the thread title as if it was a new announcement when in reality the op contains just tweets. This has been in motion since July or so, the only news is wadjeteye birching about it
 

Lancehead

Member
Before: unknown dev with new game tries to publish on Steam, can't because valve doesn't see enough buzz about it. Dev has no money nor knowledge on how to market, end of story.

Now: unknown dev with new game tries to publish on Steam, can't because valve says it's a new dev/pub so they don't know if it's what people want. It's told to go through greenlight, thus giving it an opportunity beyond simple rejection

"downside": apparently some already known devs with successful games are told to still go through greenlight, where due to their already built fan base would have to barely make an effort to achieve publiahing


OUTRAGE

There's also an implied suggestion in this thread that Valve know better than consumers to make a decision for consumers.
 
If Valve are so pro getting people to do there job for them then can they please outsource Half Life 3 already.


Greenlight is good on paper but leaving steam submissions up the the masses is a bit silly. Popular already established games will always get more votes then the smaller unknown games and lets face it people are dumb and have horrible taste.

Who knows how this will actually work out but it seems like a good way to make smaller unknown developers look at other PC distribution platforms because they dont have a huge marketing budget or facebook following they can ask to vote from.

Also will probably reduce the number of developers using steamworks because they cant be sure they will make it on steam.
 

Eusis

Member
There's also an implied suggestion in this thread that Valve know better than consumers to make a decision for consumers.
I don't think this goes 100% either way actually. Sometimes they're going to spot a gem in the rough that we wouldn't and only gets word of mouth after being out there, and vice versa maybe something LOOKS good but turns out to be a piece of crap. But, yes, it's also been a problem that good games or more niche genres get ignored because Valve doesn't see the point, and so this should help balance that out. Depending on one or the other fully seems to be a bad idea regardless, even without Greenlight they'd need to keep an ear out for what people are saying and contact outside sources for opinions.
 
I did go through the entirety of the greenlight library a minute ago and voted up a few things that really stuck out.
(And no I definitely did not go through each page one by one. That's crazy)

Not that it matters though, I feel like my vote matters more in a national election.

Only way I'd take a more active interest in a game is if it's one I played before on another service.
(Speaking of...vote YES for Crash Time 4)
 

Aeana

Member
There's also an implied suggestion in this thread that Valve know better than consumers to make a decision for consumers.
How many Valve employees have to think a game is worthwhile before it can be approved?
How many people have to vote for a game on Greenlight before it gets approved?
 

megalowho

Member
There's also an implied suggestion in this thread that Valve know better than consumers to make a decision for consumers.
If they had people good at their job doing it, yes they'd be better at curating Steam. Unless all consumers really care about deep down are Minecraft clones, Source mods and Slender Man games.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
I have no Greenlight games to right right now. I rated 941 games, which is all of the Greenlight Library.
Why would you do this to yourself? I hope you get a paycheck from Valve or something.
 

Salsa

Member
This. Can't be arsed to use greenlight. Sucks for the indies that might get overlooked.

LET BIG COMPANIES CHOOSE WHAT I WANT FOR ME THEY KNOW BETTER THAN MYSELF, CANT BE ARSED

cut to:

same people complaining about how steam is hogging the PC market thus making it like a big company controlled console closed structure

you guys are amazing
 

dani_dc

Member
Before: unknown dev with new game tries to publish on Steam, can't because valve doesn't see enough buzz about it. Dev has no money nor knowledge on how to market, end of story.

Now: unknown dev with new game tries to publish on Steam, can't because valve says it's a new dev/pub so they don't know if it's what people want. It's told to go through greenlight, thus giving it an opportunity beyond simple rejection

"downside": apparently some already known devs with successful games are told to still go through greenlight, where due to their already built fan base would have to barely make an effort to achieve publishing


OUTRAGE


the problem here is that people are reading the thread title as if it was a new announcement when in reality the op contains just tweets. This has been in motion since July or so, the only news is wadjeteye birching about it

Your now seems incorrect according to Valve Submission FAQ, according to that and the tweets the "Now" is:

Now: Indie Developer with new game tries to publish on Steam It's told to go through greenlight, depending entirely on community vote and awareness (popularity contest) to be allowed into Steam.

Which is extremely different from what you claim it to be.

We did get a few Indie games released outside of greenlight, but as far as we know the process of aproval of those projects was done before Greenlight was put in place.

There's also an implied suggestion in this thread that Valve know better than consumers to make a decision for consumers.

Why can't we have both?
 

Aeana

Member
LET BIG COMPANIES CHOOSE WHAT I WANT FOR ME THEY KNOW BETTER THAN MYSELF, CANT BE ARSED

cut to:

same people complaining about how steam is hogging the PC market thus making it like a big company controlled console closed structure

you guys are amazing
You seem so certain that the people who say the first thing are the same people who say the second.
 

Ranger X

Member
That was never the purpose of Greenlight.

Then apparently you missed the point. It was to open Steam to smaller publishers and devs that simply don't have the monies for normal submission. It was to open up the platform but at the same time not making it one huge free for all. Hence why it's people voting. This makes the platform accessible to everyone AND Steam doesn't have much risk as they go with buyers taste.
 

Salsa

Member
Now: Indie Developer with new game tries to publish on Steam It's told to go through greenlight, depending entirely on community vote and awareness (popularity contest) to be allowed into Steam.

This won't (and already hasnt) happen with the most successful indie developers. And the "popularity contest" thing is how steam ALWAYS worked. They put out games that will sell. The difference is that this process happened outside of steam, building buzz and putting the word out there. Now it happens internally in a supposedly (needs work) simpler process
 

Des0lar

will learn eventually
So I take it no one agrees with my idea to add incentives for voting, like giving out items / hats / points that can be redeemed during a sale for something / etc? :(
 
Wow, I really didn't expect a couple of messages of mine on twitter to create an entire thread on neogaf.

I think the key piece of information we're missing here is did someone at Valve take a serious look at these submissions from developers who already have games on Steam and decide they weren't quite up to par but offered Greenlight as an alternative to try to change their mind or did they just send them straight to Greenlight without really looking at their new game?

And I'm not aware of any "back door" to get a game on Steam. The previous method for indie developers to get on Steam before Greenlight was that you emailed them or filled out a form and tried to sell them on the game. So when we were trying to get Breath of Death VII & Cthulhu Saves the World on the service, we sent them links to positive reviews of the XBLIG versions from respected sites, we told them information on how many copies we had sold (with the disclaimer that XBLIG is a much smaller marketplace than Steam), we gave them screenshots & trailers, etc, etc, etc.

I think Greenlight is fine as an extra line of defense to help prevent good games from slipping through the cracks. I don't think it should be the only way to get on Steam though. Even the smallest indie developer should be able to contact Steam directly and present their case as to why their game would be a good fit for the service.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
And the "popularity contest" thing is how steam ALWAYS worked.
Yeah, I'm sure that's why Cherry Tree High Comedy Club was just released on Steam. And stuff like Analogue: A Hate Story. Because they're going to be blowing doors off as people rush to their computer to buy them.
 

Coxy

Member
at this very moment there are are a chorus of neogaffers emphatically replying "signed!" to get another shooting game on the xbox

and some of you dont have 5 minutes and 5 clicks to see behind the curtains of a new game experience, share on it neogaf or reddit or press a button that literally says "I WOULD BUY THIS GAME"

tell you what, come back when you can get 300,000 people to sign for a SRPG or JRPG or some other niche genre or realize your mistake, whichever comes first.
 
Yeah, I'm sure that's why Cherry Tree High Comedy Club was just released on Steam. And stuff like Analogue: A Hate Story. Because they're going to be blowing doors off as people rush to their computer to buy them.

Cherry Tree was a totally different situation where it was in the pipeline for so many months and Capcom wasn't doing shit with it to actually get it through.
 
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