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[SparkTR]

First thing they should do it not just accept the 10 most voted for games, they should pick the ones with good ratios or something. I know that Shantae will never have as much votes as something like Interstellar Marines, despite Shantae being an actual fantastic game and IM being vaporware. Hell I'd wager FTL wouldn't either, people don't know what's good until they see it in action. The last thing I want is for indie games to adopt that AAA marketing campaign mentality.

Granted Valves previous process wasn't all that great (Mutant Mudds fiasco), but this isn't fixing anything.

 

[plagiarize]

This is the main thing that concerns me. If Valve could take popular games from multiple genres/categories, then games like Pinball Arcade might make it to the top. Otherwise, what's to stop people from simply adding new games in more popular genres, often enough to prevent your game from ever rising to the comparative top?

Also, as mentioned, the top 10-20 greenlighted (and Valve-approved) games can as far as I know be games that are not even completed, while games that are actually finished, and actively being sold on other platforms, and presumably even available for the PC, are still held back because games that do not exist are more popular than them.

I don't really understand the logic against allowing even niche appeal games on Steam either, when you consider that there are free games (Greenlight and otherwise) competing with them. Those free games benefit Valve by potentially pulling in more Steam users...but they take bandwidth to download. If it's a niche appeal game that doesn't take a lot of download bandwidth, how does it harm Valve? The small target audience of the game probably means there isn't even going to be a lot of download bandwidth, I'd think.

right. if I understand it properly, if you aren't on the top on the right day of the month, tough titties.

 

[Salsa]

This is the main thing that concerns me. If Valve could take popular games from multiple genres/categories, then games like Pinball Arcade might make it to the top. Otherwise, what's to stop people from simply adding new games in more popular genres, often enough to prevent your game from ever rising to the comparative top?

Also, as mentioned, the top 10-20 greenlighted (and Valve-approved) games can as far as I know be games that are not even completed, while games that are actually finished, and actively being sold on other platforms, and presumably even available for the PC, are still held back because games that do not exist are more popular than them.

These are pretty much the type of arguments I agree the most with in this thread. Greenlight needs some changes in functionality, sorting and release schedule, and it needs it fast. Hopefully they're aware of this though, specially as the service gets bigger.

 

[DTKT]

This is the main thing that concerns me. If Valve could take popular games from multiple genres/categories, then games like Pinball Arcade might make it to the top. Otherwise, what's to stop people from simply adding new games in more popular genres, often enough to prevent your game from ever rising to the comparative top?

Also, as mentioned, the top 10-20 greenlighted (and Valve-approved) games can as far as I know be games that are not even completed, while games that are actually finished, and actively being sold on other platforms, and presumably even available for the PC, are still held back because games that do not exist are more popular than them.

I don't really understand the logic against allowing even niche appeal games on Steam either, when you consider that there are free games (Greenlight and otherwise) competing with them. Those free games benefit Valve by potentially pulling in more Steam users...but they take bandwidth to download. If it's a niche appeal game that doesn't take a lot of download bandwidth, how does it harm Valve? The small target audience of the game probably means there isn't even going to be a lot of download bandwidth, I'd think.

Is bandwidth even an issue for a really small game? I mean, I'm sure that they are trying to reduce the overhead and just use what they really need, but refusing a game because the bandwith cost versus the potential profit or new users seems like a fucked up thing to do.

And they have accepted games with a way smaller audience. I don't think it's related to that.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

right. if I understand it properly, if you aren't on the top on the right day of the month, tough titties.

Yeah this bothers me quite a bit as they actually state that they will be looking at more than just popularity and contacting anyone who is gaining traction.

We have been busting our ass off trying to bring more people to the La-Mulana page but there is only just so much you can do, especially since it is essentially a closed system anyway and only certain types of outside traffic are useful.

We definitely have traction as evidenced by the 800+ comments on our page. And out of those 800 there are very few negative comments which is still surprising to me.

However all evidence(the little there is) has pointed to the fact that they are just okaying the top 10 games each time with a few special exceptions.

 

[Blizzard]

Someone else mentioned Pinball Arcade. Is there more to the story than Valve simply thinking the game won't sell well?

They've opened the door for EA/Origin to swoop in with the sympathetic shoulder. That's when you know you've fucked up.

As far as I know, this has already happened with Amazon digital sales, and Tony advertising to indie devs that they should get in touch with him if they want to sell on the store. If I ever finish a game I'll probably try to go that route since I suspect it might be much easier to get on there while I'm waiting on Greenlight or whatever.

Is bandwidth even an issue for a really small game? I mean, I'm sure that they are trying to reduce the overhead and just use what they really need, but refusing a game because the bandwith cost versus the potential profit or new users seems like a fucked up thing to do.

And they have accepted games with a way smaller audience. I don't think it's related to that.

I agree with this, which is why I really question why they can't do things like taking popular games in specific categories (might allow La Mulana or Pinball Arcade), or why they would reject things like Pinball Arcade to begin with. There's still part of these stories that doesn't make sense, unless it's really just certain people at Valve that have some specific tastes/guidelines we don't know about.

 

[inm8num2]

One game that really deserves to be on Steam is Cognition. It's like Heavy Rain meets Gabriel Knight, with a graphical style similar to The Walking Dead.

Vote!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92915746

 

[Salsa]

As far as I know, this has already happened with Amazon digital sales, and Tony advertising to indie devs that they should get in touch with him if they want to sell on the store. If I ever finish a game I'll probably try to go that route since I suspect it might be much easier to get on there while I'm waiting on Greenlight or whatever.

It's a problem, but its easy to understand. Steam got too big. Bound to happen, specially when Valve isnt interested in making it a huge monopoly bigger than their company as much as they'd like for it to evolve on itself and be more open to what users make of it.

I dont think they suffer for it though, and as such is probably still better for us to have the options

 

[scytheavatar]

The worst thing is that some games on Greenlight are barely "games". Some of them are a few renders or screenshots with barely anything playable. How am I supposed to say "I want to play that" when I can't even play it in the first place...

And isn't it great that these get thrown into the dustbin? Why the heck should Indie developers get a green light if they refuse to do the groundwork and give us compelling reasons to support the game?

 

[wonzo]

oh boy i sure can't wait for such incredible games like BED SIMULATOR 2013

 

[DTKT]

oh boy i sure can't wait for such incredible games like BED SIMULATOR 2013

Someone paid a 100$ to put that up there.

Silly internet.

 

[SteveWinwood]

oh boy i sure can't wait for such incredible games like BED SIMULATOR 2013

Hey he donated 100 bucks to child's play he can have a joke submission.

It's ten times better than in the first week of greenlight when it was all 'can we has halo 3 on steam plz thx' and 'starcraft should be on here ok'.

 

[szaromir]

Pinball FX 2 and The Pinball Arcade were both refused despite being popular decently reviewed titles on other platforms both featuring strong licenses (and in the case of TPA being able to point to two successful kickstarter campaigns).

The devs of both told us they were refused a place on steam because they were pinball games. Valve have never said anything to contradict that.

One thing that annoys me about this entire situation is that Valve knowing how dominant they are in the DD space and how lives of indie devs depend on getting on Steam, they don't want to remodel their store to make space for any polished indie game that comes out, they want to keep it an exclusive club and are making higher and higher barriers of entry. I guess Valve don't suffer from it short term, but long term effects on the PC platform are not good. :/

 

[plagiarize]

One thing that annoys me about this entire situation is that Valve knowing how dominant they are in the DD space and how lives of indie devs depend on getting on Steam, they don't want to remodel their store to make space for any polished indie game that comes out, they want to keep it an exclusive club and are making higher and higher barriers of entry. I guess Valve don't suffer from it short term, but long term effects on the PC platform are not good. :/

like I said, that's why I'm glad that they're afraid of Windows 8 and it's store. if they start seeing games they shun selling well on the windows 8 store and helping to build out it's library... maybe then they'll actually recognize the issue.

 

[cartman414]

Haven't read the entire thread, but in case this wasn't said already: Postal 2... really, guys? Really?

 

[Salsa]

One thing that annoys me about this entire situation is that Valve knowing how dominant they are in the DD space and how lives of indie devs depend on getting on Steam, they don't want to remodel their store to make space for any polished indie game that comes out, they want to keep it an exclusive club and are making higher and higher barriers of entry. I guess Valve don't suffer from it short term, but long term effects on the PC platform are not good. :/

:|

so they coming up with new ways to try to get more stuff looked at and out in the service is actually keeping it an exclusive club and putting up higher barriers of entry?

or do you want app store levels of trouble?

the way they had it wasnt cutting it for the numbers they work it, and given how the market grows, there's no way to be big enough to cut it. You'd either see something like this or just way less games on Steam, wich is what would actually become into higher barries of entry.

also putting a responsability to levels of affecting lives of indie devs based solely on the fact that their service is popular and as such the market shifted towards them is a bit unfair, isnt it?

 

[Stallion Free]

Haven't read the entire thread, but in case this wasn't said already: Postal 2... really, guys? Really?

The people spoke...

...and they demanded Postal 2.

 

[DTKT]

Haven't read the entire thread, but in case this wasn't said already: Postal 2... really, guys? Really?

That's another issue. Is Postal 2 better than some other game? Doesn't it deserve a slot on the store? Why is there a limited number of slots? Is it preventing some other game from having a slot?

 

[inm8num2]

The people spoke...

...and they demanded Postal 2.

Eek.

 

[Salsa]

That's another issue. Is Postal 2 better than some other game? Doesn't it deserve a slot on the store? Why is there a limited number of slots? Is it preventing some other game from having a slot?

well that's when we start getting into weird territory. As Steam grows people expect it to be pitch perfect in what they want but the reality is that it still costs them money, and they clearly arent about putting every single thing out there. We may never know why bad rats is in there, nor if they'd ever put out something like that again, but there's clearly a reason behind it.

 

[Rubius]

One thing that annoys me about this entire situation is that Valve knowing how dominant they are in the DD space and how lives of indie devs depend on getting on Steam, they don't want to remodel their store to make space for any polished indie game that comes out, they want to keep it an exclusive club and are making higher and higher barriers of entry. I guess Valve don't suffer from it short term, but long term effects on the PC platform are not good. :/

But what is a polished Indie game? Why should a game like Bastion be in front of a game like Winter Voices?

The Greenlight system ensure that only games with popularity and so games that will sell get on the system. Its the fairest system yet, I would say. By the people, for the people, to the people.

 

[Choc]

But what is a polished Indie game? Why should a game like Bastion be in front of a game like Winter Voices?

The Greenlight system ensure that only games with popularity and so games that will sell get on the system. Its the fairest system yet, I would say. By the people, for the people, to the people.

would bastion have passed greenlight?

had it not been on consoles first for example. Probably not

 

[Salsa]

would bastion have passed greenlight?

had it not been on consoles first for example. Probably not

and you base that sort of comment on what?

I mean it's not like I dont get what you argue, but you're pulling a lot of assumptions out of a hat

 

[Warm Machine]

would bastion have passed greenlight?

had it not been on consoles first for example. Probably not

"This flash looking retro junk shouldn't be cluttering up Steam"

 

[Choc]

based on people wouldn't have seen it, people don't go to GL, and it if it didn't have a trial people might have been like what.

definitely makes it harder

would hotline miami have made it? Possibly.

 

[Blizzard]

The problem with popularity is the obvious issue that games in popular genres win, and games in niche genres lose (except say, in cases like Sequence where someone has good contact(s)).

Games in popular genres probably didn't need Greenlight to begin with. They were already popular. Games with niche appeal are a tougher sell, which is why you'd need Greenlight except...you're competing directly against games in popular genres. =P

 

[Salsa]

based on people wouldn't have seen it, people don't go to GL, and it if it didn't have a trial people might have been like what.

definitely makes it harder

fucking McPixel got greenlit

weirdest game, crude art style, super hard as a sell to what one would consider "regular folk" or the mass audience, but interesting and different gameplay

one of the first games to get greenlit

I mean it's not like I dont get the assumptions some of you guys make, but it's not hard to make a counter argument when you have examples like that

the issue isnt what kind of games get greenlit

 

[SparkTR]

But what is a polished Indie game? Why should a game like Bastion be in front of a game like Winter Voices?

The Greenlight system ensure that only games with popularity and so games that will sell get on the system. Its the fairest system yet, I would say. By the people, for the people, to the people.

The people are idiots. It stuck out during the winter sales with their voting system for what should go on sale, they always picked the most generic stuff that was on sale hundreds of times before over actual good games like TW2 or Dust Force. They don't know what they want until they see it on places like Giant Bomb, Total Biscuit or Reddit, and that's not going to happen unless you're on Steam.

 

[Rubius]

would bastion have passed greenlight?

had it not been on consoles first for example. Probably not

If a game like The Gianas Sisters went through or McPixel or even Flyin, I do not see why Bastion would not pass. On the 950 games on Greenlight, 31 are Greenlighted right now and more will get Greenlighted in the future. Steam want more games and they will adjust the ratio. Hell, Dream, which is a LSD type of game, got Greenlighted.

 

[Blizzard]

fucking McPixel got greenlit

weirdest game, crude art style, but interesting and different gameplay

one of the first games to get greenlit

I mean it's not like I dont get the assumptions some of you guys make, but it's not hard to make a counter argument when you have examples like that

the issue isnt what kind of games get greenlit

And yet, it was popular. That doesn't answer the question about games with niche appeal -- what if fewer people want to play a pinball game than McPixel? What if it's still high quality? Should only the popular games get the chance to sell?

 

[Choc]

If a game like The Gianas Sisters went through or McPixel or even Flyin, I do not see why Bastion would not pass. On the 950 games on Greenlight, 31 are Greenlighted right now and more will get Greenlighted in the future.

giana got coverage through kickstarter.

possibly you are right though

Mcpixel is a bad example because

1) it was already out

2) giantbomb had talked about it a LOT

3) people were pushing the guy to put it on steam so it clearly had an audience

 

[Amir0x]

If we're following Valve's track record, the amount of time it took them to take Steam from its initial release to successful, quality service - even if we assume notable improvement - would leave developers hanging out to dry for at least a year.

Steam Greenlight is not a highly frequented service. We can barely get half the U.S. population to vote for president. Getting hordes of Steam users to choose what games they want from a gigantic list without playable demos is like asking for a miracle for most indie games that enter.

Will the next Team Meat game make it through? Sure.

Will the next studio like Team Meat that's trying to break out make it through? Quite possibly not.

That would be a tragedy.

seriously this is a dumbfounding move. Anti-developer and anti-consumer in one fell swoop

 

[bluemax]

But I thought STEAM was the Indie game developers best friend! That's what NeoGAF tells me any time someone's Indie game fails on another platform!

 

[Rubius]

The people are idiots. It stuck out during the winter sales with their voting system for what should go on sale, they always picked the most generic stuff that was on sale hundreds of times before over actual good games like TW2 or Dust Force. They don't know what they want until they see it on places like Giant Bomb, Total Biscuit or Reddit, and that's not going to happen unless you're on Steam.

Opinions are Opinions. You cannot say that they made a bad choice, as maybe they didnt want Dust Force or TW2 (Which I voted for, but I already owned it so...)
Are you saying that Elections are bad because people are stupid? You want a Theocracy, where only people with an above average IQ can vote?

 

[Choc]

And yet, it was popular. That doesn't answer the question about games with niche appeal -- what if fewer people want to play a pinball game than McPixel? What if it's still high quality? Should only the popular games get the chance to sell?

its like high school all over again

for example

someone could put up a complete piece of shit one direction game on GL, teenage girl finds it

within 5 mins its lit

STUPIDITY

ok tongue in cheek a bit but seriously

 

[SparkTR]

If a game like The Gianas Sisters went through or McPixel or even Flyin, I do not see why Bastion would not pass. On the 950 games on Greenlight, 31 are Greenlighted right now and more will get Greenlighted in the future. Steam want more games and they will adjust the ratio. Hell, Dream, which is a LSD type of game, got Greenlighted.

Giana Sisters was propelled by their Kickstarter campaign, the others were around when Greenlight was new and interesting, those games made their rounds in the indie media. Now that the interest has worn off a lot of them are going to fall to the wayside.

 

[Salsa]

They don't know what they want until they see it on places like Giant Bomb, Total Biscuit or Reddit, and that's not going to happen unless you're on Steam.

even if this was true, both Giant Bomb and Total Biscuit did coverage on games that are currently still going through greenlight.

If a game is good, it'll probably get coverage and get known. That's just how it is, there's exceptions out there but many times that's because of a lack of push.

I bet a lot of people who love Shantae dont even know the game is on greenlight. Ive never seen Wayforward mentioning it once.

Should only the popular games get the chance to sell?

no, but the good games should get popular, wich is what Greenlight pushes.

its like high school all over again

for example

someone could put up a complete piece of shit one direction game on GL, teenage girl finds it

within 5 mins its lit

STUPIDITY

ok tongue in cheek a bit but seriously

jesus do you even know how it works

Valve still looks at it, they dont just fart the most voted game into the store

if its as bad as you mention with that example then why hasnt that happened yet?

 

[Blizzard]

The people are idiots. It stuck out during the winter sales with their voting system for what should go on sale, they always picked the most generic stuff that was on sale hundreds of times before over actual good games like TW2 or Dust Force. They don't know what they want until they see it on places like Giant Bomb, Total Biscuit or Reddit, and that's not going to happen unless you're on Steam.

I know opinions range all over, but on a lighter note this sort of comparison in popularity contests reminds me of Agent K.

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

no, but the good games should get popular, wich is what Greenlight pushes.

You are making the assumption that enough people will be interested in a certain type of game (pinball) to outweigh (absolutely? if I understand the voting system correctly?) ALL other unapproved games, released and non-released. I would suggest that not every game might have even as much wide prerelease appeal as McPixel. Some people might just not want to play pinball. What kind of market would want to play pinball? Maybe casual players? Who are the people who are likely to dig into Greenlight and vote for things? Probably not casual players looking for a pinball game on Steam, I'm guessing.

 

[szaromir]

But what is a polished Indie game? Why should a game like Bastion be in front of a game like Winter Voices?

By polished I meant something that has some creative effort put into it, not necessarily amount of bugs. I only looked I screenshots of Winter Voices and it seems like a game that should get released. I understand that Valve wouldn't want the kind of games Xbox Live Indie Games is littered with (avatar massage games, crappy minecraft clones etc), but there is a big number of higher quality indie games that have no chance of getting on Steam simply because Valve doesn't offer enough slots.

 

[Nirolak]

no, but the good games should get popular, wich is what Greenlight pushes.

But how do you know a game is good if you can't play it since it's not yet for sale?

 

[Rubius]

And yet, it was popular. That doesn't answer the question about games with niche appeal -- what if fewer people want to play a pinball game than McPixel? What if it's still high quality? Should only the popular games get the chance to sell?

Well yes. Steam wont spend money on server storage, ad on front page and all the negotiation with the Dev, for a game like Bad Rats.
Steam is not Santa Claus. They are there to make money. A lot of money. And Popular games will give them LOADSOFMONEY.
I wonder if the next COD will go through Greenlight.

 

[Salsa]

But how do you know a game is good if you can't play it since it's not yet for sale?

Supposedly info relied through images, videos and pitches, but ideally: Demos, we agree on that.

there's just no way demos arent coming, right? I guess it generates a bandwith issue, but it's just a huge hole in the system

 

[Amir0x]

But how do you know a game is good if you can't play it since it's not yet for sale?

Intuition...

 

[xJavonta]

What the fuck, Valve.

It seems that Valve is disappointing me more and more lately.

 

[Choc]

i have an idea

instead of DSIware on bombcast, Steam Greenlight

do it Jeff.

 

[Nirolak]

Supposedly info relied through images, videos and pitches, but ideally: Demos, we agree on that.

there's just no way demos arent coming, right?

What about games that aren't well conveyed through demos (or are hard to create demos for) like Terraria?

If only a few people are willing to take a plunge on a game when it comes out and then the developer hopes for success by word of mouth, that might not be enough to hit the needed greenlight level, since we have no idea how many votes that is.

There are also a lot less eyes on Greenlight than there are on the store page of Steam. If 10,000 people would buy a game on the storefront, and only 1/10th of the number of people are looking at Greenlight, is 1000 votes enough?

 

[Rubius]

By polished I meant something that has some creative effort put into it, not necessarily amount of bugs. I only looked I screenshots of Winter Voices and it seems like a game that should get released. I understand that Valve wouldn't want the kind of games Xbox Live Indie Games is littered with (avatar massage games, crappy minecraft clones etc), but there is a big number of higher quality indie games that have no chance of getting on Steam simply because Valve doesn't offer enough slots.

Winter Voice is a Tactical RPG about feelings and fear and guilt. They may open more slots, they may get a place on the next slots. They cannot allow EVERY game to go on Steam at once, or else the new games wont be promoted on the first page.

 

[Blizzard]

Well yes. Steam wont spend money on server storage, ad on front page and all the negotiation with the Dev, for a game like Bad Rats.
Steam is not Santa Claus. They are there to make money. A lot of money. And Popular games will give them LOADSOFMONEY.
I wonder if the next COD will go through Greenlight.

And yet Steam has put Bad Rats, and Revelations 2012, and probably some other mediocre games, on Steam. Plus there are FREE games, Greenlight and otherwise, that get Valve no money aside from increased Steam installation base. Do you really feel that a small game with niche appeal (few downloads) is going to hurt Steam's bandwidth and bottom line compared to people downloading say, free FPS mods from Steam servers?

 

[Salsa]

What about games that aren't well conveyed through demos (or are hard to create demos for) like Terraria?

Ideally the pitch, videos and images would cover that up. I dont think Terraria would be hard to explain through a greenlight page.

If only a few people are willing to take a plunge on a game when it comes out and then the developer hopes for success by word of mouth, that might not be enough to hit the needed greenlight level, since we have no idea how many votes that is.

well when you consider it's either this or some sort of luck of the draw of Valve seeing your game (unless it has a level of popularity wich should arguably be equal to the number of greenlight votes it would require, or at least i'd like to think they designed their system with this in mind), its hard to argue.

There are also a lot less eyes on Greenlight than there are on the store page of Steam.

yup, needs to be more prominently featured.

 

[plagiarize]

Ideally the pitch, videos and images would cover that up. I dont think Terraria would be hard to explain through a greenlight page.

so now indie devs need to make sure they have someone working for them that can pitch their game to the masses via screenshots videos and text? that isn't going to lead to the best games rising to the surface. historically I would imagine that devs could just show off their games to potential investors and publishers and let them go hands on, hard to create demos for them or not.