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Steam axes submission process, ALL new pubs/devs must go through Steam Greenlight.
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
But that system is still broken. A certification gives you a chance to be accepted because it has rigid guidelines and an approval process that goes through every single submission.
This isn't how Steam currently works and is never going to work with Greenlight. A bad system is preferable to a really bad one, but it doesn't mean that Valve can't try to improve on it.
The idea behind Greenlight is great and I can't understand why anyone would be against it. Thinking that every game has a fair chance to get on the system with a cert process going on is silly -- no one has enough time to play every game more than a few minutes before making a decision. The reason many good games have been rejected on Steam over the years is exactly because of that -- a good game might make a bad impression during the limited time it's being played by the staff in charge of the certification process. Especially on PC, since the amount of indie games and shovelware is astonishing and not even remotely comparable to what you encounter on the console space.
Of course, you can argue that Valve should accept every game that is in a running state and doesn't infringe on any copyrights, but that's entirely besides the point. Steam isn't supposed to be like the iOS AppStore or Google Play. It's not supposed to be a huge pile of garbage with a few good games in between. It's supposed to be a selection of the better stuff you can find on PC. Of course, there are many bad games on Steam -- but compared to all of the crap that is being released on PC every day, Steam's average quality is relatively high. The goal is that people can spend money on Steam without having to regret their investment most of the time.
Greenlight, in theory, is an absolutely fantastic idea. A certification process will never be bullet proof. There are always going to be a lot of great games falling through and a lot of shit being accepted somehow. That's the way of things. Human resources are always limited and as long as we can't split ourselves in 4 there is no way to feasibly change that. A community of thousands of customers on the other hand is bound to make good and reliable decisions, in theory at least. They have the time to look at the stuff they find interesting thoroughly and give their vote then and just ignore what doesn't appeal to them -- someone else will be intrigued by it and take a closer look, so he can decide on whether or not it's something he would like to buy. It's the perfect way to get a balanced impression.
Well. Like I said, in theory. So far Greenlight is sub-par at best and the quality games that have been rejected before are still falling through the cracks today. They need to find a way to give niche releases a better chance -- there is just no way that a game in a more obscure genre like a pinball game or a quirky puzzle game will get more votes than some good-looking and popular action games. Valve definitely needs to balance the votes somehow in order to reflect the different popularity levels of the different genres if they want to have a balanced selection of games being greenlit.
Also, they need to offer developers the possibility to upload demos of their game. It's really hard or even next to impossible to make a decision on most games by just looking at a few screenshots.
Of course, you can argue that Valve should accept every game that is in a running state and doesn't infringe on any copyrights, but that's entirely besides the point. Steam isn't supposed to be like the iOS AppStore or Google Play. It's not supposed to be a huge pile of garbage with a few good games in between. It's supposed to be a selection of the better stuff you can find on PC. Of course, there are many bad games on Steam -- but compared to all of the crap that is being released on PC every day, Steam's average quality is relatively high. The goal is that people can spend money on Steam without having to regret their investment most of the time.
Greenlight, in theory, is an absolutely fantastic idea. A certification process will never be bullet proof. There are always going to be a lot of great games falling through and a lot of shit being accepted somehow. That's the way of things. Human resources are always limited and as long as we can't split ourselves in 4 there is no way to feasibly change that. A community of thousands of customers on the other hand is bound to make good and reliable decisions, in theory at least. They have the time to look at the stuff they find interesting thoroughly and give their vote then and just ignore what doesn't appeal to them -- someone else will be intrigued by it and take a closer look, so he can decide on whether or not it's something he would like to buy. It's the perfect way to get a balanced impression.
Well. Like I said, in theory. So far Greenlight is sub-par at best and the quality games that have been rejected before are still falling through the cracks today. They need to find a way to give niche releases a better chance -- there is just no way that a game in a more obscure genre like a pinball game or a quirky puzzle game will get more votes than some good-looking and popular action games. Valve definitely needs to balance the votes somehow in order to reflect the different popularity levels of the different genres if they want to have a balanced selection of games being greenlit.
Also, they need to offer developers the possibility to upload demos of their game. It's really hard or even next to impossible to make a decision on most games by just looking at a few screenshots.
Yeah I think making every submission go through Greenlight is a bit silly. I use Steam every day and hardly go to Greenlight because it's horrible organized. I probably couldn't find your game without a direct link. When I vote, I usually just choose something my friends have suggested. It's too flawed a system to be the only source for approval.
The data we had so far seems to indicate that Vavle has been deciding the top community voted games.
Regardless, I think that Valve needs to handpick games besides the ones that the community voted.
The idea of "big budget" varies a lot, we're talking about indie developers, some of which are in less than ideal financial situations, a few of which can't even afford a budget, much less compete with the developers of Postal 2, Gray Matter or Pinball Arcade.
id say not broken, wonky. They can improve on greenlight the same way that according to you they could improve on a certification issue. What I said previously holds: this is still pretty much just a colander for the most wanted games to get Valve's attention. They're not just giving away the keys of anything.
Every game still has the chance to be accepted, just through a different process. Simpler in some ways, harder in others? maybe. Overall it's different enough to have the potential to be very interesting. Voters need to get used to it as much as Valve needs to really, there's changes to be had in both parties. Again: early stuff.
How many Steam users are actually going to spend the time required to fairly judge a game? How many are actually going to even try Greenlight? How many are just going to blindly click yes because it has a pretty video or a picture.
I mean, let's face it, going through Greenlight submission is a mostly a chore. For every interesting concept, there are 10 terrible games.
I mean, let's face it, going through Greenlight submission is a mostly a chore. For every interesting concept, there are 10 terrible games.
indie devs do most of their marketing through word of mouth and are way more genuine because of it. When you see coverage of an indie game on big sites is mostly because it truly is cool. This is good, it prevents shitty marketing strategies that do require that big budget you're talking about. Greenlight also works in this more "honest" way since you dont require more than $100 for it.
yeah but those top voted are more than 10, that's what I meant.
and yeah, I still think Valve's gonna handpick games, just maybe not those that are completely unknown or from completely new people (keep in mind that people applies to people, so if a game is from a new dev formed by people who were already in the industry or had a game on steam, it probably applies). All we have is still one twitter complain
Out of these games only Postal 2 has been greenlit. Most of the games that have been going through the Greenlight process are indie games through and through.
well this is what I meant by changes. The process as it stands right now it's wonky, the promess and potential is not. I could cite Steam's wonky release as an example again
I feel like you are comparing apples to oranges. Steam launched and it was terrible. But that was a technical issue. You add more servers, you improve stability and everything is dandy.
Now with Greenlight, it's purely a matter on how players pick things and who is actually taking the time to rate games. Do you add rewards for rating? Does that guarantee anything beyond everyone madly clicking on "YES"?Do you show a random pool of games every time the user logs in? That sounds a bit "in your face" and what if the user doesn't give a damn about Greenlight? Do you force a certain amount of ratings every week? Do I trust the vast majority of users to actually pick games I would play? Hell no!
Or you know, you could trust a moderate amount of qualified and motivated individuals with the job of curating the Steam catalog. You create a fairly simple certification process with the appropriate amount of support and you let it roll.
There are a few occasions where the appeal to the mass doesn't actually work. I believe this is one of those.
HotHamWater
Member
Edit: Just realized this thread was for the Greenlight news, I saw Steam and totally thought it was the OT. My bad.
That's absolutely good, but to get to that point you need a good marketing strategy and/or luck, being a good game isn't enough to get the ball rolling, or have it reach the finish line.
We already saw at least one awful marketing strategies related to Greenlight, as I pointed out Postal 2 had the whole "vote and get the game for free" thing going.
Well the number of games being bigger than 10 is good, but it ultimately doesn't change the issue if this is the only way to get games on Steam.
Hopefully Valve will update the FAQ with a bit more clear message in the event that they still handpick games to clear this issue, and if that's not the case, starting picking games and the update the FAQt.
I realize that, I just brought up those games to point out the extremes that the disparity of budgets could get, which would become a bigger issue as time went by if Greenlight was suddendly the only way for this developers to get their games on Steam.
MelonieMac
Neo Member
I've been pulling for the game, Rekoil on Steam Greenlight. I can get you guys in the beta if you want to try it. Here's the Greenlight link: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92945422
Needs as many votes as possibre :S
Needs as many votes as possibre :S
Valve as stated that downvoting has no effect on the game getting accepted or not on Steam, the only votes that matter are the "Yes" votes.
From the Greenlight FAQ:
grimshawish
Banned
I wonder if Steam will eventually WEIGH votes on whether or not you have a history of finally buying the game you voted for?
I disagree, Steam got better because of many reasons and changes, not just because of technical stuff. It fought its way into a somewhat established market and came out on top, while at the same time shaping it into something better.
citing ideas is pointless when we're not the ones thinking about how to handle it though, im just saying that if there's someone who could pull something like this off is them, and the fact that they are still 100% behind it shows me promise in evolving it. If you only take into account the outcome of greenlight so far (as in, the games released or greenlit) it's hard to see it as a bad thing beyond maybe the 10 slots or how they handle the release in general, this is easier to fix than the voting system. At this point Valve's very much on top of what gets released, and this is most likely because they see some of the issues with the current system.
Yeah, digital distribution sure was an established market in 2005.
I'm sorry, Salsashark, but based on your devotion to Steam and your long history of participating in the Steam OT, you do appear to display some degree of conflict of interest.
it's a market that existed, it was nothing new, and other DD markets got ahead of Steam before.
I also said this:
SalsaShark said:
I dont see why. Many people use Steam here, love Valve and hate Greenlight. I dont get your point.
I love Steam, but I dont think my responses are disvalued because of bias. Im saying that Greenlight is in it's early stages and that much of the problems can be fixed instead of people just dismissing the thing altogether. Im not denying any issue nor doing anything like that. Most of my responses here are barely paraphrasing what Valve said they wanted to do with Greenlight.
If anyone wants to ignore my opinions based on the number of posts I have on a thread that's fine though.
BudokaiMR2
Member
This is going to lead to some really hypocritical scenarios because it obviously isn't required for everyone no matter what they say.
In fact there is a good chance we might get screwed over with such a situation.
In fact there is a good chance we might get screwed over with such a situation.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Well, the service is flooded with unfinished games in varying states of completion -- and I have no interest in voting for unfinished games that will eventually get onto Steam. If a game has a great demo with considerable gameplay, then that's cool, but that should be the bare minimum for getting onto Greenlight.
There are already a couple of communities for developing games, and Greenlight shouldn't really be a place to "gauge" the publics interest in a game, or whatever else -- it should be finished, or close to finished.
Another potential problem with the way it works now is that people might simply throw together concept arts and write their best game ideas to get attention, or gauge the publics interest in a potential game under the pretense of actually making it. There are also places for sharing concept art and ideas for games -- but it shouldn't be Greenlight or Steam.
There are already a couple of communities for developing games, and Greenlight shouldn't really be a place to "gauge" the publics interest in a game, or whatever else -- it should be finished, or close to finished.
Another potential problem with the way it works now is that people might simply throw together concept arts and write their best game ideas to get attention, or gauge the publics interest in a potential game under the pretense of actually making it. There are also places for sharing concept art and ideas for games -- but it shouldn't be Greenlight or Steam.
Greenlight is a bad idea because it'll encourage developers to lie about their game or try desperately to appease everyone in order to get enough votes to actually sell a product they've been working on, on the largest game-focused downloadable marketplace. Imagine if Apple told smaller artists and labels they needed enough votes to sell tracks on iTunes but didn't bother telling them how many they needed exactly or how many they actually had? That'd be pretty fucked.
All this is going to do is make it easier for EA (their closest competitor) to draw in indie developers to Origin. Not to mention Desura, Impulse, and other services out there. It's a bad decision and one other companies would be smart to capitalize on. Just like the customer support issue.
Looks super basic and kinda generic. I'll try it if it ever gets approved, I guess.
All this is going to do is make it easier for EA (their closest competitor) to draw in indie developers to Origin. Not to mention Desura, Impulse, and other services out there. It's a bad decision and one other companies would be smart to capitalize on. Just like the customer support issue.
Looks super basic and kinda generic. I'll try it if it ever gets approved, I guess.
Basileus777
Member
Valve is so amazingly cheap.
yeah cause the appstore isnt filled with shit
I get your reasoning, but that's just how it is. If a dev promises something and doesnt deliver that's on them. I bet they wont get a lot of sales of the finished product nor will their next game recieve a warm welcome. I dont see how Greenlight affects this for the worse, developers lie or underachieve everywhere
toastyToast
Member
Don't put the onus of getting games through on people who aren't even sure they're interested yet
This idea is terrible
This idea is terrible
Until Greenlight requires playable demos, I'm not at all interested in participating.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Well if you aren't making games then maybe you won't give a shit.
But this is affecting developers so it shouldn't be surprising that they might give a shit considering things like this can make or break their studios.
Also in this respect Steam has not "been great so far." Otherwise they wouldn't have went out of their way to create a completely new service to solve problems which they have publicly admitted now would they?
As I have said before I am pretty sure if I would have turned down La-Mulana for distribution on PLAYISM over 6 times my boss would have drop-kicked me out of a window.
All this is going to do is the games that would have been approved under the old process will sit at the top and absorb attention/votes from the smaller games.
So you end up with the same games going in, and even less indie games.
Also they need to let you change the charity the 100$ goes to.
So you end up with the same games going in, and even less indie games.
Also they need to let you change the charity the 100$ goes to.
Who cares if the app-store is filled with shit? It's up to consumers to decide if they want to spend money that way. It shouldn't be consumers that handle the approval process. It isn't my job to sift through submissions and give a yes or no to something that might never come out or be a solid product. What happens to games that I'd want to play that never get approved and get dropped due to disinterest? We all know not being on steam is a death sentence for games as far as many PC gamers are concerned. Is that my fault or Valves? It's Valves.
Name another digital distribution service that does that asks its consumers to do this. Valve is passing the accountability onto the end-user and that isn't a burden we should bare. Effectively, it opens Valve, Publishers, and Developers to throw their hands up at a bad product and say "Well, you guys wanted it so...."
This entire system is as broken and stupid as Xbox Live Indie Games.
That's exactly what they want. Complacency.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Wait that finally came out?!?!?
*Goes to check*
Oh just great another Japanese doujin game on Steam and not available to people in Japan.
Sonofa....
by shit I also mean developers who lie or steal other people's work and fart something out themselves, hence why it isnt a comparable market
how is this not happening already? you just dont know about it cause it's not public, nor it has a bigger opportunity, wich is what they try to do with Greenlight
none. It's new, it has advantages and disadvantages. If all the scenarios you could think of are bad scenarios where shit you want doesnt get approved (wich could very well happen anyway, greenlight or not) instead of thinking about the advantages a service like this could provide then that's up to you.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
My problem with greenlight is wel...
...democracy and video game players don't mix well.
...democracy and video game players don't mix well.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I'm not really sure the connection here. XBLIG and Steam Greenlight have nothing in common.
Basileus777
Member
Well, Valve buries Greenlight deep in their store in a similar way Microsoft does with XBLIG and is thus probably dooming it to a niche userbase in a similar way.
Visualante2
Member
Democracy and (commercial) art in general doesn't work well. If you pitch a project you typically pitch to a panel or small audience of industry experts and commissioners. Now you're pitching to average joe, and you have to convince thousands of people.
im not necesarely defending Valve as much as im trusting in them. I think they have plans for Greenlight and that hopefully they'll deliver a more polished service. I also think a lot of people are misenterpreting what these reports mean.
Greenlight is a staple on the store's front page, right after the list of new releases, top sellers, etc.
Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy, sympathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness
don't even try and tell me some of you are not held hostage by steam. some games you can't play without it
Wow... I'm speechless.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Isn't this sorta a bad idea for everyone involved? Big publishers having to jockey for position (especially if they stick to 10 at a time) or dealing with people who might vote "no" just out of spite, and indie games getting steamrolled by huge games? I dunno, this just seems like a weird move.
sure, just choose to ignore all the sound reason behind most people posting from the camp opposed to yours and you have this situation
you previously posted this:
and suddenly those posting from the other side of the argument are the ones who are discussing for winning the discussion's sake and out of blind love for a company
alright
Family Fry
Member
I wouldn't put my trust in Valve or any other multi million dollar company.
Companies make decisions like this all the time and when I say decisions I mean mistakes.
It will come back to bite them in the arse just wait, EA will snap up some indie devs with open arms, whilst Valve seem to want to slam the door firmly shut in some peoples faces.
It's almost like Valve are saying Greenlight is only good for surveying how much money we can make from these games, less than 10,000 votes you say? THAT'S NOT ENOUGH MONEY.
All this whilst the indie devs struggle to pay rent, waiting for Valve to allow its users to do their fucking jobs for them.
Shit I actually posted that, ah fuck it I will stick with it, it's what I feel.
Companies make decisions like this all the time and when I say decisions I mean mistakes.
It will come back to bite them in the arse just wait, EA will snap up some indie devs with open arms, whilst Valve seem to want to slam the door firmly shut in some peoples faces.
It's almost like Valve are saying Greenlight is only good for surveying how much money we can make from these games, less than 10,000 votes you say? THAT'S NOT ENOUGH MONEY.
All this whilst the indie devs struggle to pay rent, waiting for Valve to allow its users to do their fucking jobs for them.
Shit I actually posted that, ah fuck it I will stick with it, it's what I feel.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Well honestly part of the problem stems from this IMO.
I mean it obviously is not a fully featured service at this point as everyone including Valve admits, so making it the only option for hundreds and hundreds of developers seems a little short-sighted.
I think it would be fine if they were still looking at submissions normally and Greenlight would work basically as a second chance.
However, you have to remember that there are a lot of developers who are banking their entire livelihood on selling their game through Steam.
And there are a lot of developers who have already completed development and sorely need to recoup costs in some way. Asking them to basically spend money and time marketing their game(especially since Greenlight traffic is dead unless you have a powerful outside source of traffic such as Kickstarter) just to have a slight chance of being considered for the store seems a little unfair to me.
well, you dont leave me much of a choice as to what to respond then :S
what's so outrageous about my post there? there are post in this thread stating that every single game will have to go through greenlight before appearing in the store page, how is that not misinterpretation?
what's so bad about thinking that what is stated as confirmed here (that new games from new developers and such will always have to go through greenlight) doesnt sound as outrage-inducing as some people claim it to be?
this holds true, but I think theyre working from a point of view where they just rather have the gates as open as they could, wich means making some sacrifices. I still believe the wadjeteye thing is fucking weird in that it shouldnt be that way for other devs under that situation (this has been going on for a while and I dont really think all the newer indie games that came out lately outside of greenlight worked with Valve before they introduced this). Guess we'll see