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[TunaLover]

The teardowns indicates that the system's construction is pretty spartan, so it's probably a smaller loss more in line with the Gamecube.

Yeah I don't know if Reggie was even allowed to disclose that number, it seems they are not loosing much money. If he was also refering to 3rd party games, that means they are profitable with just 3rd party fee, but I doubt it, he must refering to firdt party titles.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Whoever did the interview was wrong, Gamecube also sold for a small loss at launch, one which the sale of a 1st party game covered.

Also, this more or less confirms only the basic model is loss bearing if the margin to profit is only $50-60.

 

[IrishNinja]

mad salt already

glad to hear it - i hope sony can say about the same when their next gen machine drops, it's a healthier look for the industry in general

 

[Sentenza]

Yay, it becomes profitable very quickly. You all should feel so happy for them!
Asking for better hardware would be so much a display of entitlement.

 

[ConradCervantes]

My Wii died at one point; I still have all my WiiWare and VC games.

Shh! Just let him run with it.

 

[big_erk]

I cant believe they are losing money at 349$ with this thing.

Why does everyone keep saying this. Even though the system may not have the oomph we would all like for it to have, a ton of R&D went into this thing. Man hours aren't free.The CPU-GPU combo is not an off-the-shelf part. Then there is the customized wireless protocol for the gamepad. All of these things add to the cost of the system. I would rather they had spent more on CPU and memory, but at least I can see where the money was spent.

 

[BGBW]

IDs are tied to the system.
Profits are tied to the games.

 

[urfe]

I'm always impressed people have such deep knowledge to understand how much the WiiU ought to cost to make.

I wouldn't even know where to start to talk out of my ass about such a thing.

Anyways, glad it's making money. Would like Nintendo to go back to a profit even if they don't repeat the Wii's success.

 

[Like the hat?]

Maybe, they're meant to be fun?
I dunno, i think that the essence of a game is to be fun. And fun can be found in sadness, drama, horror, circus (clown) and even work. Fun is about enjoying.
And, I want to know more about the multiple levels you said.


http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/fun (in french)
Fun for me is "divertissement" (entertainment), games are entertainment.
Game is about playing, it's about entertainment. You know, art isn't a form of elitism, it's just cultural entertainment.
Games are entertainment and a form of art. Like cinema is entertainment, painting is entertainment, and all should be about entertainment.

Oh guys, please, don't want to explain the difference between Chicago's and Frankfurt's schools point-of-view, but clearly, i'm one of the guys that see entertainment as art, and art as entertainment. And for me, games are about playing, playing is about entertainment and should be FUN.

Ok?


And by the way:
Etymology of the word "game" by wiktionary
From Middle English game, gamen, gammen, from Old English gamen (“sport, joy, mirth, pastime, game, amusement, pleasure”), from Proto-Germanic *gamanan (“amusement, pleasure, game", literally "participation, communion, people together”), from *ga- (collective prefix) + *mann- (“man”), equivalent to ge- +‎ man; or alternatively from *ga- + a root from Proto-Indo-European *men- (“to think, have in mind”), equivalent to ge- +‎ mind. Cognate with Middle High German gamen (“joy, amusement, fun, pleasure”), Swedish gamman (“mirth, rejoicing, merriment”), Icelandic gaman (“fun”). Related to gammon, gamble.

Just wanted to say I like this post

 

[Nilaul]

Maybe with two purchases, they could had added a better cpu.

 

[also]

When my Wii had problems reading discs three years ago they fixed it for free, and I didn't even needed any proof of purchase. If that's not impeccable customer service then I ask you what is. So yeah, I trust them.

When my Wii had Wi-Fi problems I had to pay 80€ to get it fixed. I lost all my locked saves in the process and the replacement console they sent me constantly froze 3 minutes after being booted up (unless it entered Game Cube mode), so I had to send it in again and wait another 3 weeks. If this isn't shitty costumer service then I ask you what is. So yeah, I don't trust them.

 

[Fewr]

I am glad we live in a time when power consumption and manufacturer profitability is more important than the product we end up with.

Welcome to the future.

Greenhouse gases hit record level
By Pilita Clark, Environment Correspondent
The amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere rose to record levels last year, the UN has reported, reinforcing scientists’ warnings that the world may be on course for dangerous global warming.
Concentrations of carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas emitted by human activities such as burning fossil fuels in power plants, increased to 390.9 parts per million molecules in 2011, a sharp rise from the pre-industrial era level of 280 ppm.
(...)
But many countries at the talks will be urging more rapid action to tackle the rise in greenhouse gas emissions before it is no longer possible to meet the UN target of holding the increase in global average temperature to less than 2 °C above pre-industrial levels.
Temperatures have already risen 0.8 degrees and scientists fear there could be 4°C warming by the end of the century unless there is action to reduce emissions.

Regarding manufacturer profitability, well that has existed since the dawn of time.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Why does everyone keep saying this. Even though the system may not have the oomph we would all like for it to have, a ton of R&D went into this thing. Man hours aren't free.The CPU-GPU combo is not an off-the-shelf part. Then there is the customized wireless protocol for the gamepad. All of these things add to the cost of the system. I would rather they had spent more on CPU and memory, but at least I can see where the money was spent.

Why do people keep bring up R&D?

 

[Orayn]

Yay, it becomes profitable very quickly. You all should feel so happy for them!
Asking for better hardware would be so much a display of entitlement.

It is what it is. I would have liked somewhat better hardware and a next-gen Wii Remote instead of the GamePad, but I still take some solace in the fact that the Wii U probably won't put them out of business.

 

[big_erk]

Why do people keep bring up R&D?

As a corporation, it's hard for them to ignore the millions of dollars poured into it. If it was free to develop a system, everyone would do it.

 

[KageMaru]

I figured this was the case and may have even said as much in the thread about them selling the system at a loss. I also imagine they aren't losing anything on the more expensive SKU, but only the cheaper bundle.

 

[iamshadowlark]

As a corporation, it's hard for them to ignore the millions of dollars poured into it. If it was free to develop a system, everyone would do it.

Nobody is ignoring it but its not part of what reggie is saying either.

 

[Effect]

Prior to the release of the GameCube, it was mocked by some for its specs. having less main ram than the ps2 and the official "6 to 12 million polygons a second" ( vs 66 and 80 odd million for Xbox and playstation 2). Gamecube ports from playstation 2 were usually shitty and inferior.

Yet the games built specifically for it shined bright. Rogue leader , fzero gx , re4 revealed a very capable console.

It will very likely be the case once again. That's been the constant thought I believe when it came to the technical discussions leading up to the launch. Nothing has changed that. Games made specifically for the system are what it's power should be judged by.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I think Sega would have something to say about that.

Hell can Sony say that this generation?

 

[test_account]

Why does everyone keep saying this. Even though the system may not have the oomph we would all like for it to have, a ton of R&D went into this thing. Man hours aren't free.The CPU-GPU combo is not an off-the-shelf part. Then there is the customized wireless protocol for the gamepad. All of these things add to the cost of the system. I would rather they had spent more on CPU and memory, but at least I can see where the money was spent.

I dont think that R&D is taken into that equation. If they say that they sell it as a loss, it should mean that the manufacturing process (including packaging and shipping too) should cost more than what they sell it for.

Hell can Sony say that this generation?

Maybe not for the whole generation combined, but the PS3 did become profitable eventually.

 

[shinobi602]

the system is still priced cheaper than any other HD console at launch.

As it should, 6-7 years later.

(360 had a $299 launch model btw)

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

It didn't matter how far they would have jumped up. MS and Sony would have been able to outdo it easily just based on the extra time they had until release.

The Wii U has reasons to it's price and power, and they're hedging their bets without risking the entire company.

The Wii U is not at the same power level as the 360 or PS3. It's above them.

We should stop asking Nintendo to ape MS and Sony and embrace we do not have 3 companies doing the exact same thing. I'm glad some one is concerned with cost; it's the counter weight to Sony from last gen.

With that financial approach, I'm glad they have focused on innovation outside of horsepower.

Maybe not for the whole generation combined, but the PS3 did become profitable eventually.

Will it be profitable, overall? The real story of the PS3 is that it single handedly wiped out all the profits from PS1 and PS2.

 

[btrboyev]

Because they now are charging the $10 HD premium. It's that simple.

 

[Cheerilee]

First party or third party?
In any case they must loosing around $40 per system in the worst case.

It doesn't really matter if it's first or third party. Nintendo (and most any other console manufacturer) charges around $10 royalty per-game (more or less), and most of that is profit. It's a tribute that the console maker gets for being the console maker.

Nintendo counts their work as a console maker and their work as a game publisher entirely separately. When they charge as much for their own games as other publishers do for theirs, and they say what Nintendo (the console maker) earns per-game, they're not taking publishing into account. When Nintendo charges $10 less for their games than the other guys do, it's because Nintendo (the console maker) gave Nintendo (the publisher) a free pass.

Sony basically pioneered the idea of selling hardware at a loss (after Nintendo pioneered selling them at-cost), because the NES and SNES had tie ratios (the average number of games sold per-system) of around 10:1. Roughly ten games times roughly $10 equals maybe $100 profit-per-system. That meant Sony could afford to temporarily risk selling their systems at a $50 loss, and not worry, because they planned to eventually earn $100 per-system on games. They got into trouble when they started trying to eat $100-200 losses per-system.

 

[btrboyev]

Why do people keep bring up R&D?

The streaming tech from console to gamepad is the single most impressive thing on the system. No other streaming tech out there comes close. The closest tech I can think of is Apples airplay and its no comparison. The Wii pad has zero latency.

 

[Plinko]

Maybe, they're meant to be fun?
I dunno, i think that the essence of a game is to be fun. And fun can be found in sadness, drama, horror, circus (clown) and even work. Fun is about enjoying.
And, I want to know more about the multiple levels you said.


http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/fun (in french)
Fun for me is "divertissement" (entertainment), games are entertainment.
Game is about playing, it's about entertainment. You know, art isn't a form of elitism, it's just cultural entertainment.
Games are entertainment and a form of art. Like cinema is entertainment, painting is entertainment, and all should be about entertainment.

Oh guys, please, don't want to explain the difference between Chicago's and Frankfurt's schools point-of-view, but clearly, i'm one of the guys that see entertainment as art, and art as entertainment. And for me, games are about playing, playing is about entertainment and should be FUN.

Ok?


And by the way:
Etymology of the word "game" by wiktionary
From Middle English game, gamen, gammen, from Old English gamen (“sport, joy, mirth, pastime, game, amusement, pleasure”), from Proto-Germanic *gamanan (“amusement, pleasure, game", literally "participation, communion, people together”), from *ga- (collective prefix) + *mann- (“man”), equivalent to ge- +‎ man; or alternatively from *ga- + a root from Proto-Indo-European *men- (“to think, have in mind”), equivalent to ge- +‎ mind. Cognate with Middle High German gamen (“joy, amusement, fun, pleasure”), Swedish gamman (“mirth, rejoicing, merriment”), Icelandic gaman (“fun”). Related to gammon, gamble.

I disagree with your first statement on some level (and agree with you on others) but I'd rather not derail the thread further.

 

[test_account]

Will it be profitable, overall? The real story of the PS3 is that it single handedly wiped out all the profits from PS1 and PS2.

I think the initial quote was that a console being sold at loss could change. That is what happened with the PS3, it was sold at a big loss to begin with, but that is not the case anymore.

I've heard the claim about the PS1 and PS2 profits being completely wiped out by the PS3 before, but is there a source to this?

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Prior to the release of the GameCube, it was mocked by some for its specs. having less main ram than the ps2 and the official "6 to 12 million polygons a second" ( vs 66 and 80 odd million for Xbox and playstation 2). Gamecube ports from playstation 2 were usually shitty and inferior.

Yet the games built specifically for it shined bright. Rogue leader , fzero gx , re4 revealed a very capable console.

The Gamecube was right in line with the power of PS2 and a little less than Xbox. Wii U most likely won't even be close to the PS4 and 720, so that hypothetical situation is not gonna happen.

 

[Hazelhurst]

The CPU doesn't bother me, its the fact the gamepad only lasts between 3-5 hours. I feel they cheaped out on the battery. How is it that most tablets, that actually have larger screens, can get 8 - 12 hours per charge. Has this been explained? Is the gamepad requiring more power than a normal tablet?

 

[iamshadowlark]

I think the initial quote was that a console being sold at loss could change. That is what happened with the PS3, it was sold at a big loss to begin with, but that is not the case anymore.

I've heard the claim about the PS1 and PS2 profits being completely wiped out by the PS3 before, but is there a source to this?

Its only PS2s profits.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

lol.

Give me one reason why people would buy a PS3 or 360 successor that didn't have any substantial graphic improvement. Name one gimmick they could put in such a console that would make it a worthwhile purchase.

Umm, I'd buy it if the games look fun. I don't know if that's a gimmick though. But what do I know, I bought all 3 consoles and a DS last gen because they had games I thought were fun.

 

[Vinci]

A console sold at a loss is profitable eventually. An underpowered console is underpowered forever.

Sony must be pleased with this relationship.

 

[Cheerilee]

The streaming tech from console to gamepad is the single most impressive thing on the system. No other streaming tech out there comes close. The closest tech I can think of is Apples airplay and its no comparison. The Wii pad has zero latency.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter if they spent a billion dollars researching that tech. It was an investment. They approved and paid for that investment a long time ago. It's done. It's not a per-console cost.

Now they're selling consoles that cost them around $10 every time they make one, and many more games that earn them around $10 every time they make one. The only time that billion dollars comes back into the equation is when it's all said and done and somebody asks "was it worth it?"

It makes no sense to ask that question now. You can't just put the first 10 consoles out there and grumble that people better damn well like them, because it cost one hundred million dollars per-console to make those things. And then recalculate and grumble again at 100 units, and say they cost ten million each. And keep on recalculating and say that you're only going to stop doing this after the investment has paid off.

Maybe you just calculate how many sales you'll need to earn that money back right from the start, and throw a small party a few years later when you reach your hundred-millionth disk pressed. The rest of the time, you're out there working and earning money towards repaying an investment, not theoretically "losing money". The lost money was lost. Now you're earning.

 

[Glass Joe]

Since the Deluxe model is the main SKU, I'm going to assume that Reggie was actually talking about the Deluxe when he was talking about the console being profitable with an additional game purchase. If so, the basic model probably loses them a bit more per unit. But if buying a game creates a profitable transaction, it's not like they're hemorrhaging money here. What kind of mark up do they get for a 3rd party game? $10 max, maybe?

As for the minor loss, doesn't that have a lot to do with the dollar to yen conversion not being in their favor right now?

Have they released info on the ratio of deluxes to basic that they're putting to market? I would have to guess that it could be as high as 4:1 but I could be way off. But my GameStop got mostly all blacks.

The CPU doesn't bother me, its the fact the gamepad only lasts between 3-5 hours. I feel they cheaped out on the battery. How is it that most tablets, that actually have larger screens, can get 8 - 12 hours per charge. Has this been explained? Is the gamepad requiring more power than a normal tablet?

Not to derail the topic, but I'm thinking it probably has to do with the streaming technology. It is always receiving massive amounts of data. Kind of like how Wifi is draining, but on a larger scale. It might be possible over time to improve the battery though. Perhaps they'll sell a better battery down the line in their store? Looks easy enough to switch out if and when needed, which was an intentional design decision.

 

[Vinci]

Yeah, but it doesn't matter if they spent a billion dollars researching that tech. It was an investment. They approved and paid for that investment a long time ago. It's done. It's not a per-console cost.

Now they're selling consoles that cost them around $10 every time they make one, and many more games that earn them around $10 every time they make one. The only time that billion dollars comes back into the equation is when it's all said and done and somebody asks "was it worth it?"

It makes no sense to ask that question now. You can't just put the first 10 consoles out there and grumble that people better damn well like them, because it cost one hundred million dollars per-console to make those things. And then recalculate and grumble again at 100 units, and say they cost ten million each. And keep on recalculating and say that you're only going to stop doing this after the investment has paid off.

Maybe you just calculate how many sales you'll need to earn that money back right from the start, and throw a small party a few years later when you reach your hundred-millionth disk pressed. The rest of the time, you're out there working and earning money towards repaying an investment, not theoretically "losing money". The lost money was lost. Now you're earning.

Wow. Someone who actually understands how pricing works. Well done. Seriously, it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

 

[Zombie James]

If the distance to profitability is a single licensing fee on a game, I'm left wondering why they didn't invest a bit more on hardware. Seriously, (most) everyone buys at least once game with a system, especially at launch.

 

[Twilight Princess]

The streaming tech from console to gamepad is the single most impressive thing on the system. No other streaming tech out there comes close. The closest tech I can think of is Apples airplay and its no comparison. The Wii pad has zero latency.

It's so good browsing the web on the tv using the UPad, I used to browse on tv with appletv+iPad, but the lag is obvious. with the UPad I can use it like a touchpad, so even though the resolution is lower, the overal experience is smoother.

 

[outunderthestars]

If the distance to profitability is a single licensing fee on a game, I'm left wondering why they didn't invest a bit more on hardware. Seriously, (most) everyone buys at least once game with a system, especially at launch.

Nintendo knows that people will buy their hardware regardless of performance. They also want to be able to keep hardware prices as low as possible.

 

[drkOne]

Are they making profit out of my ZombiU bundle? I don't plan on buying any other games because FUCK YOU NINTENDO, I WON'T ALLOW YOU TO PRINT ANY MORE MONEY.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

The CPU doesn't bother me, its the fact the gamepad only lasts between 3-5 hours. I feel they cheaped out on the battery. How is it that most tablets, that actually have larger screens, can get 8 - 12 hours per charge. Has this been explained? Is the gamepad requiring more power than a normal tablet?

There have been pictures of the battery and the space allocated for it, it's a noticeable difference meaning they could have used a much bigger one.

Someone will come up with one.

The battery life is shit but I am used to the 3DS so it doesn't bother me too much.

I'd definitely like that to be improved though.

 

[Neo C.]

Why would Reggie say this? Now the shareholders are going to see shipped figures and expect profits? I await the share price up 2% story...

I'm wondering about that part as well. It's not like he's forced to say this.

 

[big_erk]

The CPU doesn't bother me, its the fact the gamepad only lasts between 3-5 hours. I feel they cheaped out on the battery. How is it that most tablets, that actually have larger screens, can get 8 - 12 hours per charge. Has this been explained? Is the gamepad requiring more power than a normal tablet?

Hopefully someone releases an extended life battery soon that uses the extra space in the battery compartment. This may have been Ninty's intention all along. Sale the system with a lighter, smaller capacity battery and offer a longer life battery that adds weight later on. Not a big deal to me if you can play with the pad tethered as well.

 

[jmls1121]

It's so good browsing the web on the tv using the UPad, I used to browse on tv with appletv+iPad, but the lag is obvious. with the UPad I can use it like a touchpad, so even though the resolution is lower, the overal experience is smoother.

I have had this system for a few days, and things like you mention above have already made me fall in love with it. So cool.

 

[slit]

Reggie can I punch you in the face

You can try, but he'll whip dat ass!!!!

 

[massoluk]

The CPU doesn't bother me, its the fact the gamepad only lasts between 3-5 hours. I feel they cheaped out on the battery. How is it that most tablets, that actually have larger screens, can get 8 - 12 hours per charge. Has this been explained? Is the gamepad requiring more power than a normal tablet?

Better battery is usually more heavy and expensive? Ipad battery basically fill almost the entire case interior.

 

[TheNatural]

Maybe they should have used that one game to put in a better CPU and RAM and changed it to two.

 

[Tallshortman]

Why does everyone keep saying this. Even though the system may not have the oomph we would all like for it to have, a ton of R&D went into this thing. Man hours aren't free.The CPU-GPU combo is not an off-the-shelf part. Then there is the customized wireless protocol for the gamepad. All of these things add to the cost of the system. I would rather they had spent more on CPU and memory, but at least I can see where the money was spent.

R&D is not factored into whether a machine sells for a loss or not. The cost per console includes cost of materials and cost of manufacturing. It may include shipping too. R&D is accounted for in the company's overall finances.

 

[Septimius]

Yay, it becomes profitable very quickly. You all should feel so happy for them!
Asking for better hardware would be so much a display of entitlement.

What.

Did you not sit down to consider this post before you made it? Or are you a cynic that's convinced profit means money in the pockets for Reggie et al? Profits means more budget to make games. And you're angry at them for having that. Obviously Nintendo should dish out for more expensive hardware, claim bigger royalties on 3rd party games and scrape together for a 1st party game.

Honestly, I don't know Nintendo's financials for shit, but I do know that it's a good thing that they have more money.

The CPU doesn't bother me, its the fact the gamepad only lasts between 3-5 hours. I feel they cheaped out on the battery. How is it that most tablets, that actually have larger screens, can get 8 - 12 hours per charge. Has this been explained? Is the gamepad requiring more power than a normal tablet?

"Cheaping out" isn't really applicable in this situation, though, as size is the most important factor as to how much power you can get out of a battery. If you made it twice as expensive, it probably wouldn't extend the battery life a lot. It's a design-choice to have it light. You could probably have it last twice as long and not cost much more. But it'd be heavier. And Nintendo probably figured with whatever interaction design processes they use - probably a rather complex one, as kids are meant to hold this thing - that this was the best approach.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

"Also, I'm not wearing any shorts" he added

 

[Plinko]

Maybe they should have used that one game to put in a better CPU and RAM and changed it to two.

I guarantee that's not how investors feel, which is why Nintendo did it.