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[i-Lo]

Isn't it a bit late to target the GPU towards that? Wouldn't specs already be nailed down by now?

Yes and no. The target for performance may have been set and current dev kits are near representative of that kind of performance being simulated via off the shelf parts currently available.

The final specs are a part of a road map of hardware development which currently either exist or are planned for production next year. Thus, say, if they have targeted the GPU tf performance to be 2.2 then they'll simulate it with whatever card is available today for developers and wait till say the 8850 or 8770, whichever yields the same target figure with better power efficiency.

AMD's mid range cards were out late Q1 this year and so it makes little sense for a console coming out in late Q4 2013 or Q1 2014 to use tech that'll be nearly 2 years old.

 

[RoboPlato]

Isn't it a bit late to target the GPU towards that? Wouldn't specs already be nailed down by now?

Nope. They could have already decided to use something like that and it just hasn't hit dev kits yet. Specs aren't quite nailed down yet.

EDIT: i-Lo said it better.

 

[Kamek]

a bit of a noob here, my laptop has a nvivia 660gtx video card. Would that be able to at least run it, if not at optimized speeds? Also i7 8gb ram 2gbvram i think.

 

[LCGeek]

AMD mid range cards were out late Q1 this year and so it makes little sense for a console coming out in late Q4 2013 or Q1 2014 to use tech that's over two years old.

It is if you don't want to be hit by hardware costs. Considering it will be of the newer line of amds you should be quite happy.

 

[Riggs]

Hugging my 680 so hard right now, my Xbox just gave me the finger and lit up a cigarette. Inconsiderate prick I only smoke on the porch.

 

[Erasus]

You cant have a 680 and sell the console at a 400$ price-point and make a profit. The card alone retails for 450$.

Thats not how it works. Skyrim dosent run at 720p 30fps on a pc witha 7800GXT now does it

 

[itxaka]

Asking about the ram affecting cpu thing.

Wouldn't a big ram meant that the cpu has to keep up with managing it, and seeing that ram is much faster than hdds will equal aan increased cpu in order to keep up with it?

Not sure if I have explained myself well.

 

[i-Lo]

It is if you don't want to be hit by hardware costs. Considering it will be of the newer line of amds you should be quite happy.

Remember:

• There are supposed to be no drastic changes in architecture between Southern and Sea Island GPU. IIRC both use 28nm fab. So no major issues with production.
• The cost which may be high in the beginning will decrease with time and less power consumption of the newer GPU means less heat which means better efficiency and yield. Very important factors in a console environment
• MS and Sony would have already negotiated a deal with AMD in this regard. Unlike retail clients, there is a substantial difference in price at the end of the day per unit GPU.

 

[dragonelite]

a bit of a noob here, my laptop has a nvivia 660gtx video card. Would that be able to at least run it, if not at optimized speeds? Also i7 8gb ram 2gbvram i think.

No laptop version of the card either downclocked 5xx series card rebranded to 660GTX or a Downclocked 6xx desktop version.

 

[Erasus]

Asking about the ram affecting cpu thing.

Wouldn't a big ram meant that the cpu has to keep up with managing it, and seeing that ram is much faster than hdds will equal aan increased cpu in order to keep up with it?

Not sure if I have explained myself well.

RAM is usually controlled by a memory controller, used to be the south bridge on pc boards but now its in the cpu

Dont really know how it affects performance

 

[RoboPlato]

Remember:

• There are supposed to be no drastic changes in architecture between Southern and Sea Island GPU. IIRC both use 28nm fab. So no major issues with production.
• The cost which may be high in the beginning will decrease with time and less power consumption of the newer GPU means less heat which means better efficiency and yield. Very important factors in a console environment
• MS and Sony would have already negotiated a deal with AMD in this regard. Unlike retail clients, there is a substantial difference in price at the end of the day per unit GPU.

This last point is especially true if they're using a unified RAM pool. No GDDR5 on the GPU itself would drop the price dramatically.

 

[Zyrusticae]

Thats not how it works. Skyrim dosent run at 720p 30fps on a pc witha 7800GXT now does it

I would venture that it probably does, as long as you use identical image quality settings (re: NOT with everything maxed out at that resolution).

 

[i-Lo]

One other I'd like to add is the afaik, both Sony and MS will licensing the design and will each run their own production (outsource it to perhaps some place in Taiwan or China). This relieves AMD from having to do the production. Effectively, it saves AMD from expenses brought on by additional administration, HR, accounting and most importantly a variety of liability (insurance) exposures assumed under the mass production of chips for two companies. This in essence would ensure better pricing option for both MS and Sony.

This last point is especially true if they're using a unified RAM pool. No GDD5 on the GPU itself would drop the price dramatically.

I am a bit apprehensive about the whole RAM situation.

 

[Weltall Zero]

So... why are we giving any credit to anything Square says, a company that tried to pass this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EM3P15hTnfA#t=31s
... as 2006 PS3 gameplay?

This reeks of the exact same. I don't see those kind of visuals happening in real-time on current hardware, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So... why are we giving any credit to anything Square says, a company that tried to pass this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EM3P15hTnfA#t=31s
... as 2006 PS3 gameplay?

This reeks of the exact same. I don't see those kind of visuals happening in real-time on current hardware, sorry.

Agni's Philosophy wasn't some "target render" bullshit. They had it running in real time on off-the-shelf hardware (detailed in this thread).

 

[Kamek]

No laptop version of the card either downclocked 5xx series card rebranded to 660GTX or a Downclocked 6xx desktop version.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2408962,00.asp

I have a Lenovo Ideapad Y580. The graphics card is a GeForce GTX660 M. Could you explain how it's different in layman's terms?

 

[aeolist]

Sub 720p, 30fps with tearing, FXAA/MLAA only, Final Destination

 

[Horse Armour]

So... why are we giving any credit to anything Square says, a company that tried to pass this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EM3P15hTnfA#t=31s
... as 2006 PS3 gameplay?

This reeks of the exact same. I don't see those kind of visuals happening in real-time on current hardware, sorry.

There are several videos posted in this thread of the devs moving around the level and changing things in real time to prove that it is running in real time.

 

[Shinta]

So... why are we giving any credit to anything Square says, a company that tried to pass this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EM3P15hTnfA#t=31s
... as 2006 PS3 gameplay?

This reeks of the exact same. I don't see those kind of visuals happening in real-time on current hardware, sorry.

The CG in that looks pretty much exactly like the final game. The Sunleth Waterscape level looks almost exactly like that. I don't know what you're implying honestly.

 

[Bear]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2408962,00.asp

I have a Lenovo Ideapad Y580. The graphics card is a GeForce GTX660 M. Could you explain how it's different in layman's terms?

Basically they aren't the same card. Mobile GPUs are much more restricted when it comes to heat, size and power consumption. They may be based on the desktop card with the same name, or they might not, but they won't have comparable performance either way. At most they will have a scaled down version of the same architecture, but quite often they're based on older desktop cards.

It's best to think of them as two separate lines of of products. The naming of mobile cards doesn't have to match their desktop counterparts.

 

[DJIzana]

The CG in that looks pretty much exactly like the final game. The Sunleth Waterscape level looks almost exactly like that. I don't know what you're implying honestly.

Too bad the combat didn't pan out the way it did in that video. Honestly, the combat system that went into the final game, for XIII, is the MAIN reason I didn't like XIII in the first place. That video goes to show off awesome skills and flashy moves.

I don't think I'd go as far as saying that it would've made the game a true FF for me because it lacks exploration as well. It sure would be a start in the right direction though. Give us more stuff that reminds us of the awesome Knights of the Round / Omnislash. Not skills like Ruin, Blitz and Fog Chaser.

As for Agni's Philosophy, I really hope they actually put games on the PC too. They really need to stop giving love to consoles so much. The engine looks amazing but I'd like to see the non CG portion of it and what THEIR combat system would actually look like. If the game would be linear or like Versus XIII idea.

 

[Erasus]

Too bad the combat didn't pan out the way it did in that video. Honestly, the combat system that went into the final game, for XIII, is the MAIN reason I didn't like XIII in the first place. That video goes to show off awesome skills and flashy moves.

Yes, but tech wize FFXIII does look like that, except for the ammount of chars on screen

 

[lefantome]

There are several videos posted in this thread of the devs moving around the level and changing things in real time to prove that it is running in real time.

yes but it's not something even close to a game.

The scene has a good quality only if it's visible by the static camera position.

 

[Shinta]

Too bad the combat didn't pan out the way it did in that video. Honestly, the combat system that went into the final game, for XIII, is the MAIN reason I didn't like XIII in the first place. That video goes to show off awesome skills and flashy moves.

Not to derail too much, but the developers kind of acknowledged that they feel that complaint is valid. They're trying to make Lightning Returns finally see the gameplay realization of the Lightning we saw in that video. I loved the combat in XIII, but I did want to see her use the anti-gravity technology a lot more than they did. Here's hoping Lightning Returns' combat is impressive. More reveals on it this month, supposedly.

 

[Yasae]

I bet this, like FF Crystal engine is absolutely unflexible.

Let's be honest though, SquareEnix needs to produce some decent games first in a reasonable amount of time before I start caring about their tech. It's license (money) material and good to have around before the gen starts, but they still seem like a very troubled developer.

 

[DJIzana]

Yes, but tech wize FFXIII does look like that, except for the ammount of chars on screen

I disagree, tech wise. We're talking about combat here. NON of those flashy moves really exist in XIII nor in XIII-2. I'll use XIII-2 as a PERFECT example. Look at the skill ruin. In fact, look at the whole fight... this is mid game too. You'd expect at least SOME cool moves but no. A small, dinky ball of light that flies towards the guy, as the melee Commando class? That's a joke if you ask me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z3oefn3Vh1I#t=30s

 

[RoboPlato]

Just watched the video through a couple more times and it's still damn impressive. The only thing I would say is that in some of the pans the camera motion blur is too aggressive. Everything else looks great. Object blur and AO especially.

 

[Shinta]

I disagree, tech wise. We're talking about combat here. NON of those flashy moves really exist in XIII nor in XIII-2. I'll use XIII-2 as a PERFECT example. Look at the skill ruin. In fact, look at the whole fight... this is mid game too. You'd expect at least SOME cool moves but no. A small, dinky ball of light that flies towards the guy, as the melee Commando class? That's a joke if you ask me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z3oefn3Vh1I#t=30s

It's still pretty much the flashiest RPG combat I've ever seen. Compare it to any previous FF and there's a lot more going on visually in standard combat than any time prior. The spells are impressive. You picked the lowest level spell for a melee class. Ruinga is impressive, Waterga, Lightninga and on. The summons, the character specific moves. The game's problem wasn't that it lacked flashy visuals.

And the characters all jump high in the air and basically defy gravity every time they lift an enemy up on break status. They just don't flip upside down, or freeze time. Army of One is pretty much the same kind of moves that you saw in that first video.

 

[DJIzana]

It's still pretty much the flashiest RPG combat I've ever seen. Compare it to any previous FF and there's a lot more going on visually in standard combat than any time prior. The spells are impressive. You picked the lowest level spell for a melee class. Ruinga is impressive, Waterga, Lightninga and on. The summons, the character specific moves. The game's problem wasn't that it lacked flashy visuals.

And the characters all jump high in the air and basically defy gravity every time they lift an enemy up on break status. They just don't flip upside down, or freeze time. Army of One is pretty much the same kind of moves that you saw in that first video.

Well, yeah... I guess VISUALLY, in terms of the effects, they still look pretty good. It's just that when you compare the E3 video in terms of the skills Lightning does there, versus the ones used in the final game, it's FAR different.

 

[Yasae]

Yes, but tech wize FFXIII does look like that, except for the ammount of chars on screen

Well....

It never looks like that.

 

[i-Lo]

For people comparing FF13 from it's tech days to final product: While the overall fidelity is very close. Individual aspects had been toned down during the optimization process. Things such as number of polygons for character detail took a hit.

Tech demo:

Now look at her left arm, arm band on her right arm and her gloves that were previously round. Also if you look hard enough at the screens you'll notice the loss of polygon detail in the fingers as well. I noticed this most with Sazh while the game.:

In-engine:

 

[aegies]

One other I'd like to add is the afaik, both Sony and MS will licensing the design and will each run their own production (outsource it to perhaps some place in Taiwan or China). This relieves AMD from having to do the production. Effectively, it saves AMD from expenses brought on by additional administration, HR, accounting and most importantly a variety of liability (insurance) exposures assumed under the mass production of chips for two companies. This in essence would ensure better pricing option for both MS and Sony.



I am a bit apprehensive about the whole RAM situation.

I am almost one hundred percent positive that Microsoft at least will own the design to their silicon. They did with the 360 after getting burned on the Xbox. Also, the chipset in Durango is not off-the-shelf kit.

Also, Agni's is running in real time, I assure you.

 

[Yasae]

For people comparing FF13 from it's tech days to final product: While the overall fidelity is very close. Individual aspects had been toned down during the optimization process. Things such as number of polygons for character detail took a hit.

Definitely. Lightning's hair is probably the most noticeable change for me. It got very simplified.

 

[DonMigs85]

FFXIII actually uses different character models for cutscenes and the field/battles.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I am almost one hundred percent positive that Microsoft at least will own the design to their silicon. They did with the 360 after getting burned on the Xbox. Also, the chipset in Durango is not off-the-shelf kit.

Also, Agni's is running in real time, I assure you.

I expect it to be the same for Sony also unless they get stupid .
Also Agni's is running in real time around the same level as what we saw from the demo meaning both systems going to have dedicated GPU.

 

[BigDaddyFatSack]

Yeah neither Nextbox nor PS4 will use expensive GPU like 680. Not to mention, CPU wasn't taxed much because it was just a real-time cinema. No AI, No nothing. Good luck with that Square.

 

[Famassu]

So... why are we giving any credit to anything Square says, a company that tried to pass this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EM3P15hTnfA#t=31s
... as 2006 PS3 gameplay?

This reeks of the exact same. I don't see those kind of visuals happening in real-time on current hardware, sorry.

1) FFXIII is really, REALLY close to the target render quality in many points of the game.

2) That was a target render of what they had in mind for FFXIII graphical quality & gameplay at that point, they said that quite early on. If I don't remember completely wrong, PS3 got a bit of a downgrade after that, or wasn't quite as powerful as what Sony had initially promised. The huge difference to Agni's Philosophy is the fact that they already HAVE Luminous engine quite far along in development so they know what kind of end results they can get with it and on what kind of hardware whereas that FFXIII target render was done without any of the tools they actually used for the game. Agni's Philosophy is very likely made with the kind of hardware in mind that they have gotten info on from Sony & Microsoft. There might be changes by launch, changes that could be downgrades, which would mean this tech demo was made with too powerful next-gen hardware in mind, but that will hardly be SQEX's fault.

 

[i-Lo]

I am almost one hundred percent positive that Microsoft at least will own the design to their silicon. They did with the 360 after getting burned on the Xbox. Also, the chipset in Durango is not off-the-shelf kit.

Also, Agni's is running in real time, I assure you.

That's why I said, all MS and Sony are doing are just licensing the design from AMD. It relieves AMD of liabilities and provides production flexibility for both MS and Sony. I remember MS being very unhappy with how the arrangement with nVidia turned out during the time of Xbox.

And pertaining to Agni, I know it is running real time. I would love to know what is going on, on the right panel where the clothing animation seem very primitive. My speakers are a bit busted. Makes me wonder if we'd see more detailed clothing physics and animation next gen akin to UE's Apex Clothing.

FFXIII actually uses different character models for cutscenes and the field/battles.

Doesn't look like it but if you have a link to correct me, it'll be most welcome.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Yeah neither Nextbox nor PS4 will use expensive GPU like 680. Not to mention, CPU wasn't taxed much because it was just a real-time cinema. No AI, No nothing. Good luck with that Square.

Well, to be fair, plenty of console games can run on a PC @1080P/60fps and sit at around 20 percent utilization for the CPU. So even if this is next gen, it still wouldn't surprise me to see games out there that still can't even dent a 3770 CPU.

 

[~Kinggi~]

I loved the demo they debuted and voted for it to be the next FF game. I just hope square gets their act together cause i really like it when they make ambitious things like this.

 

[Racer30]

Yeah neither Nextbox nor PS4 will use expensive GPU like 680. Not to mention, CPU wasn't taxed much because it was just a real-time cinema. No AI, No nothing. Good luck with that Square.

Oh yes they will! Its a blessing for Sony and Microsoft that people have so low expectations for next-gen...that means you will be easier to wow!

A 680 will not be that special in a year`s time.

 

[bigboss370]

I don't think Agni will look like that or run that well in real time in an actual game. They can pull it off for a video but for actual gameplay they probably need to account for more assets.

 

[DonMigs85]

Doesn't look like it but if you have a link to correct me, it'll be most welcome.

Developer quote here, but there's more info out there. I remember also seeing a pic of the character models in a realtime cutscene and they do look higher-poly.

In FF Versus XIII, we've gotten rid of [in-game] cutscenes that the player can't control.. "There will either be pre-rendered movies or realtime event scenes that the player can control. These scenes are part of a new gameplay feature which, as far as I know, hasn't been done anywhere else. It's something that allows for very natural changes in the game experience, a form of expression you don't really see in games. It's not something you can explain quickly since the experience can change with each situation, but you could say it leads to the sort of storytelling you see more in FPSes than in console RPGs.

"I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but I wind up skipping most cutscenes I run into because I want to get back into the game," he told Famitsu. "I don't think I'm the only gamer like that, and so I wanted storytelling that takes pains not to stop the gameplay. That way, gamers like that can still get into the event scenes in natural fashion. It's also a development time-saver. In the past, we'd make separate high-poly models for the cutscenes, but technology is now to the point where the only difference between the 'high-poly' and 'low-poly' models in FF Versus XIII is in the hair.

-Tetsuya Nomura on Versus XIII's Cut Scenes

EDIT: Eurogamer to the rescue
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/tech-analysis-final-fantasy-xiii-article?page=2

 

[Tears For Fears]

I would venture that it probably does, as long as you use identical image quality settings (re: NOT with everything maxed out at that resolution).

Show me a pc with 512mb ram 3.2ghz p4ht and a 7800gtx that can run skyrim exactly like it runs on x360. You can't.

 

[Zyrusticae]

A 680 will not be that special in a year`s time.

Not really. They'll still be bloody expensive.

Just like GTX 580s.

Show me a pc with 512mb ram 3.2ghz p4ht and a 7800gtx that can run skyrim exactly like it runs on x360. You can't.

Why a 3.2Ghz P4HT? The 360 uses a tri-core processor. At least use comparable components if you're going to do that.

At any rate, point taken.

I don't care, though. The PC is still going to completely eclipse the consoles within a year of launch, if not already at launch in the case of truly high-end PCs - I'm running two GTX 670s (both with 4GBs of VRAM), for example. I'd love to see a next-gen console game actually manage to push those to the brink.

Edit: Oh, going back to the original point - which was that it is unlikely that the new consoles will have the equivalent of a GTX 680 in them - he's absolutely correct. Whether or not the optimization work they can do when programming directly for the metal can bridge that gap is still an open question.

 

[Canis lupus]

How did the Samaritan demo run? GTX580s right? How does 3 of them compare to a single GTX680?

 

[Tears For Fears]

Not really. They'll still be bloody expensive.

Just like GTX 580s.


Why a 3.2Ghz P4HT? The 360 uses a tri-core processor. At least use comparable components if you're going to do that.

At any rate, point taken.

I don't care, though. The PC is still going to completely eclipse the consoles within a year of launch, if not already at launch in the case of truly high-end PCs - I'm running two GTX 670s (both with 4GBs of VRAM), for example. I'd love to see a next-gen console game actually manage to push those to the brink.

Because that's what was comparable at the time. It's really a moot point, because it's not plausible.

 

[i-Lo]

Developer quote here, but there's more info out there. I remember also seeing a pic of the character models in a realtime cutscene and they do look higher-poly.

EDIT: Eurogamer to the rescue
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/tech-analysis-final-fantasy-xiii-article?page=2

Thanks for the article. It looks like the poly count are either subtle or imperceptible. The noticeable changes come in the form lighting, DoF and skin detail.

Now, while the faces in FF13, rightly were apportioned the great polygon budget, I hope for next gen, more detail budget can be set aside for rest of the body. I mean look at these Pinocchio french fries (in a cut-scene):

 

[Racer30]

Not really. They'll still be bloody expensive.
.

Can get the 580 to around 250$ here now...and Sony is not buying retail...and not the hole pcb. I imagine they would pay 70-100 now for just the gpu and memory in bulks of millions/licensing of the architecture+production.

In a year; 680 about the same, maybe with process tech (20nm) even cheaper. Perfectly doable.

 

[DieH@rd]

How did the Samaritan demo run? GTX580s right? How does 3 of them compare to a single GTX680?

Originaly on three 580s, but then they removed MSAA and went to shader-based AA solution. This enabled them to move Samaritan on one 580.